Education (Not Just UT)

[Monahorns]

I am not certain which issue is more important school choice or eliminating the DoE. But what I do know is that allowing DC a say of any sort in our schools will thwart any attempt to control government schools ourselves. If the DoE or federal government is involved they could outlaw non-government schools if school choice threatens their power.

I guess I don't understand why we have to choose. We must abolish the DoE and expose education to market competition. This isn't a binary choice we need to make but a total restructuring.

 

[Mr. Deez]

With the cut in DOE funding if we "cut the cord" we could directly cut bloated district administrative costs that are for the most part useless.

For example, a school of less than 1,000 students does not need a principal and vice principal for every grade level. That's a waste of easily $500k per year in just one school and this happens all over the state.

At the district level they could be easily cut 15-20% of the staff. They think they're "understaffed" all the time but I believe they make up things to do just to justify the body. Teaching children in the classroom does not need a bloated administrative staff.

With all of this cutting, we could then dedicate some of the excess back to teacher salaries.

You're being generous stuff the 15-20 percent figure. Many could cut more than that. However, you make it sound like the bloat would go away if that 9 percent in federal money went away. I wouldn't assume that. Keep in mind that the bloat is there first and foremost because the districts want it. The bloat gives them more power and helps further their agendas.

So if the federal money went away, they wouldn't just give up the bloat. They'd start complaining to the public and to the Legislature and predicting Armageddon if the funding isn't restored. We wouldn't hear about deputy superintendents for queer advocacy and diversity getting laid off. We'd hear threats of school closures, classroom teachers getting fired, and children being turned away. The media would back it up with sob stories of teachers worried about their jobs, etc.

Democrats would start pitching various tax hikes to make up the additional funding. In red areas, we'd hear horror stories of how property taxes would have to go up to avoid doomsday. And eventually, the Legislature would cave and give them the money. They'd try to use budget gimmicks and fee increases to make up for it, so they could claim they didn't raise taxes. But even if they did have to raise taxes, a small hike in the sales tax would easily do it. Remember, it's only 9 percent.

The point is that the bloat wouldn't likely go away just because the federal money was gone.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I am not certain which issue is more important school choice or eliminating the DoE. But what I do know is that allowing DC a say of any sort in our schools will thwart any attempt to control government schools ourselves. If the DoE or federal government is involved they could outlaw non-government schools if school choice threatens their power.

I guess I don't understand why we have to choose. We must abolish the DoE and expose education to market competition. This isn't a binary choice we need to make but a total restructuring.

School choice is far more important. The reason why it matters is that it's much, much easier to pass it at the state level than dumping the DoE would be at the federal level and would give much more significant help. We are on the cusp of getting school choice in Texas. Realistically, DoE isn't going away in our lifetimes. And if we pass school choice, we short circuit the whole system. That would make a far bigger impact.

 

[Chop]

The view, especially prevalent in small towns, of the school district as a jobs program for adults (rather than as a means to educate the youth) repeatedly shoots down school choice. School choice, meaning vouchers for private schools, meaning real competition.

Their reason: private schools don't pay their teachers as much $. Also, the crony petit corruption of small town public works contracting (The Superintendent's nephew gets the construction contract in a rigged bid, etc.), weighs in heavily in the small towns.

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

Also, the crony petit corruption of small town public works contracting (The Superintendent's nephew gets the construction contract in a rigged bid, etc.), weighs in heavily in the small towns.

You'll need to provide lots of links rather than just allegations here.

 

[Monahorns]

Paying teachers less money means you can afford to provide other learning resources thus improving the education of students. If not that it makes life in a small town even more affordable for poor and working class people. It also can also attract other industries into your town. Even more so it is possible that eliminating teacher's unions increases wages for other jobs in town. Everyone is paying for those teachers including other businesses and the price is artificially inflated. Reduce teacher pay and other business owners can pay their employees more.

Thinking about teacher pay is extremely myopic.

 

[Chop]

Paying teachers less money means you can afford to provide other learning resources thus improving the education of students. If not that it makes life in a small town even more affordable for poor and working class people. It also can also attract other industries into your town. Even more so it is possible that eliminating teacher's unions increases wages for other jobs in town. Everyone is paying for those teachers including other businesses and the price is artificially inflated. Reduce teacher pay and other business owners can pay their employees more.

Thinking about teacher pay is extremely myopic.

Yep.

The whole prevailing mindset is backwards.

Pubic schools exist for the benefit and education of the students, NOT for the employment of the teachers and administrators.

 

[nashhorn]

Pubic schools exist for the benefit and education of the students, NOT for the employment of the teachers and administrators.

Ok, but you don’t get the first without the second, ie, not much education going on with out good teachers and not good teachers without pay. Yeah I’m pro teacher salaries.

 

[Horn6721]

I agree. Teachers need the best pay possible.
I know some pretty great teachers who choose private schools when they know their salary would be higher in public schools.
I need to ask them why they do not go to public schools

 

[Monahorns]

Ok, but you don’t get the first without the second, ie, not much education going on with out good teachers and not good teachers without pay. Yeah I’m pro teacher salaries.

I think good teachers are important. But a person can learn simply from reading a good book. Let's not over complicate what a teacher is and what it takes to do a good job.

 

[nashhorn]

If my daughter’s experience is any measure a lot has to do with parent and administration support. Public schools in many many districts have gone insane.

 

[nashhorn]

But a person can learn simply from reading a good book.

Ha, now that’s what I call an example of oversimplification. No offense intended but imo there is no comparison to what difference can be made by a good teacher - even if you are simply reading an instruction manual.

 

[SabreHorn]

Mona,

Teacher pay is incredibly important. Just look at HISD with over a thousand uncertified teachers starting at $80,000, yet they are taking non-degreed people to fill the slots. I submit that there are (1) glorified babysitters and (2) professional educators. Quality teachers are migrating to private schools because of better working conditions and safety. Yes, they have to put up with arrogant parents, but better arrogant parents and gang thugs packing and using the school for a storefront for their drug trade.

Small towns are a different story. Yes, I am old but having grown up in a town where 98% of population had not gone to college, the teachers were to be respected. Sass a teacher? Grab the desk! It worked well for many decades and should be brought back.

 

[nashhorn]

Like the last paragraph.

 

[guy4321]

I think good teachers are important. But a person can learn simply from reading a good book. Let's not over complicate what a teacher is and what it takes to do a good job.

It will be tough for kindergartners to learn to read by ... reading a book.

Houston ISD starts first year teachers at $64,000. That's not going to get one very far.

 

[SabreHorn]

Go back and look at their most recent attempts to hire. Starting salaries are up in the 70s & 80s, and they are still short 500-600 teachers.

$62,000 may not get them far, but if they are only making $10-20 an hour currently, they think they are rich.

"Oops, I'm a CNA graduate of Acme welding & nursing school, but always wanted to be a teacher"

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

Let's not over complicate what a teacher is and what it takes to do a good job.

No. Let's do exactly that.

It takes one hell of a person to corral a class of 20+ kids (you pick the age), who all learn at different paces and prefer to learn in different ways, and make it look easy.

It takes one hell of a person to actually make each one of those kids feel loved and valued, even when they are acting like little ****-heads.

These days, it takes one hell of a person to also deal with the parents of said children, mountains of mostly pointless administrative ********, and other unnecessary garbage that constantly impinges on the ability to simply teach those 20+ kids.

Don't you ******* dare suggest a good teacher isn't worth his or her weight in gold.

 

[Chop]

The school systems need to bring back tracking. That way she/he doesn't have to try to teach to 4-5 different levels in one class--that doesn't make sense.

 

[Chop]

I think Finland has really highly rated schools, maybe the world's best. We should see what they are doing and emulate them.

 

[Horn6721]

Again we should pay teachers the most we can.
Wouldn't a first year teacher be like any first year employee? Have to show they are capable of performing? Do they get a raise after first year?
A Fellow Horn retired from VERY successful law firm. Moved to Allen ( north of Dallas) decided to "give back" by teaching. He started teaching at his old HS in Dallas. Left because it was too dangerous every day.Now subs in Allen.

 

[BrntOrngStmpeDe]

Don't you ******* dare suggest a good teacher isn't worth his or her weight in gold.

This is the crux of the problem. Most of the teachers, the unions and the administrators don't want us to measure for "good". A good teacher is indeed very valuable. Not only because they can individually have a big impact on young people, but also because they can provide the template for other teachers to follow. Our biggest problem is that we are left with very subjective measures of "good" (much like doctors, but that is another problem). Most of the time, it is just the kids saying "I like Mrs. XXXX". So good bedside manner becomes the most important benchmark rather than good teaching.

There are indeed good teachers but there are also a lot that are not good. If we were able to really measure outcomes then we could give them the "gold" that you speak of, but we could also get rid of the teachers that are dead weight.

And no matter what the unions, admin and teachers say....you can measure individual teacher impact.

Despite existing since 1867, the DoEd has done precious little to improve the quality of the teaching profession.

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

This is the crux of the problem. Most of the teachers, the unions and the administrators don't want us to measure for "good". A good teacher is indeed very valuable. Not only because they can individually have a big impact on young people, but also because they can provide the template for other teachers to follow. Our biggest problem is that we are left with very subjective measures of "good" (much like doctors, but that is another problem). Most of the time, it is just the kids saying "I like Mrs. XXXX". So good bedside manner becomes the most important benchmark rather than good teaching.

There are indeed good teachers but there are also a lot that are not good. If we were able to really measure outcomes then we could give them the "gold" that you speak of, but we could also get rid of the teachers that are dead weight.

And no matter what the unions, admin and teachers say....you can measure individual teacher impact.

Despite existing since 1867, the DoEd has done precious little to improve the quality of the teaching profession.

I agree with this - pretty much all of it.

 

[SabreHorn]

No. Let's do exactly that.

It takes one hell of a person to corral a class of 20+ kids (you pick the age), who all learn at different paces and prefer to learn in different ways, and make it look easy.

It takes one hell of a person to actually make each one of those kids feel loved and valued, even when they are acting like little ****-heads.

These days, it takes one hell of a person to also deal with the parents of said children, mountains of mostly pointless administrative ********, and other unnecessary garbage that constantly impinges on the ability to simply teach those 20+ kids.

Don't you ******* dare suggest a good teacher isn't worth his or her weight in gold.

Dion,

This needs to be put in a category by itself as the alltime greatest post on HornFans. Not even "OU Sucks" comes close.

Having served on school boards (public & private) may have tainted my view, but my lady friend teaches ESL in Alief, my best friend taught third grade in Spring Branch (7 years on north side of freeway and the rest in Memorial), I have seen that district spiral downhill, while the private school went from having graduates accepted to the Ivys (public & private), Stanford, Northwestern, et al, but now has a couple to A&M, maybe one to Texas, the rest are headed to Tech, LSU, OU, Arkansas, Ole Miss, all because one person made a rule that sent the 20 best teachers packing. We are and have been doing this generation a huge disservice

 

[Monahorns]

Ha, now that’s what I call an example of oversimplification. No offense intended but imo there is no comparison to what difference can be made by a good teacher - even if you are simply reading an instruction manual.

I've learned way more since I have been out of school through reading and working. Formal teaching is a good thing but it isn't the most important thing ever.

 

[Monahorns]

Mona,

Teacher pay is incredibly important. Just look at HISD with over a thousand uncertified teachers starting at $80,000, yet they are taking non-degreed people to fill the slots. I submit that there are (1) glorified babysitters and (2) professional educators. Quality teachers are migrating to private schools because of better working conditions and safety. Yes, they have to put up with arrogant parents, but better arrogant parents and gang thugs packing and using the school for a storefront for their drug trade.

Small towns are a different story. Yes, I am old but having grown up in a town where 98% of population had not gone to college, the teachers were to be respected. Sass a teacher? Grab the desk! It worked well for many decades and should be brought back.

Teacher's pay is important. It is important that it is tied to the subjective economic value that parents and students assign to it freely. I simply reject the Progressive sacred cow of the importance of paying teachers more and more regardless of what else is going on in the world.

 

[Monahorns]

It will be tough for kindergartners to learn to read by ... reading a book.

Houston ISD starts first year teachers at $64,000. That's not going to get one very far.

How smart of a person do you need to teach a 5-7 year old to read?

The pay should be determined by the market. Period. Part of that equation is cost of living.

 

[Chop]

Prussia was the first to have mandatory and universal education.

I think we adopted the Prussian model, and parts of it have stuck with us to this day, mostly to our detriment.

Large scale mandatory public schooling springs from the progressive movement. And the Prussian model was the model adopted. The competing Catholic school model was probably just as strict and regimented.

 

[Chop]

Prussia was the first to have mandatory and universal education.

I think we adopted the Prussian model, and parts of it have stuck with us to this day, mostly to our detriment.

Large scale mandatory public schooling springs from the progressive movement. And the Prussian model was the model. The competing Catholic school model was probably just as strict and regimented.

The Prussian (later the American) purpose for universal public schooling -----> to build a better Army.

"[E]ducation for peasants was based more on discipline, subservience, conformity, grading, mindless memorization, suppression of creativity, suppression of intelligence, and other negative aspects of modern schooling."

(sound familiar........)


Gneisenau (August Neidhardt von Gneisenau)-- one of the principle architects of the Prussian reform (he was also Blucher's right hand man for the Prussians at Waterloo, and his unit captured Napoleon):

It worked. Within a generation, Prussia (soon to be Germany) had the best Army in the World. But their education system is ill-suited to today's world and the creativity we should inculcate.

They even named a battleship after him:

The dark origins of public education

By Katerina Dimarogkona, Public education was created to free people’s minds from narrow-mindedness; to teach students critical thinking, foster creativity, and knowledge that will help them find a job; to ensure that voters have sufficient knowledge to defend democratic regimes against the ever-pr

www.offlinepost.gr

 

[Horn6721]

Mona
I wonder how much even a mediocre teacher positively influences the many many kids from disinterested dysfunctional homes where the most positive role model may be that teacher?
You are right of course except in those situations

 

[Monahorns]

No. Let's do exactly that.

It takes one hell of a person to corral a class of 20+ kids (you pick the age), who all learn at different paces and prefer to learn in different ways, and make it look easy.

It takes one hell of a person to actually make each one of those kids feel loved and valued, even when they are acting like little ****-heads.

These days, it takes one hell of a person to also deal with the parents of said children, mountains of mostly pointless administrative ********, and other unnecessary garbage that constantly impinges on the ability to simply teach those 20+ kids.

Don't you ******* dare suggest a good teacher isn't worth his or her weight in gold.

How dare I!