Dumb Political Correctness

ProdigalHorn said:
Oh, and I forgot that this happened, too.
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If they one thing really well, it has to be the double standard
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Seattle Husker said:
We have speech limits here too, right? Can't yell fire in a crowded theater, defamation, etc.

We have gun limits too.

That fact that ProdigalHorn knows who Tommy Robinson is tells a lot about how far right he's traversed since he joined this board.

This article details why Robinson was jailed. He's violated previous court orders not to broadcast trials. It's CENSORSHIP I say...CENSORSHIP! Why would a court not what a trial taped? Maybe to ensure a fair trial for the accused?
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I'm familiar with Tommy Robinson. He's a pretty big name in European nationalist circles. He's not a Richard Spencer-type, because he's more about culture than he is about race. However, he's known as a big time provocateur - a little like Milo Yiannopolous but dumber, less sophisticated (yes, less gay), and a bit thuggish. He definitely likes getting arrested and the attention that comes with it.

As for his case, he wasn't taping the trial. He was commenting on it from outside the courthouse and broadcasting his "commentary" on Facebook. I don't condone what he was doing, and I'm not familiar enough with UK law to say whether the judge was out of line or not. However, what happened to Robinson (or whatever his name is) would almost surely be unconstitutional in the United States.

My understanding is that the court imposed a gag order to keep the trial from being discussed. We do that in the US, but it gets applied to the parties, lawyers, jurors, and people directly connected to the case. It doesn't get applied to disinterested parties and media figures, and if a judge issued such an order in the US, it would be considered a major breach of free speech and free press principles. For example, that's why people like Alan Dershowitz, Greta Van Susteren, and the countless other talking heads who spouted off about the OJ trial on TV didn't have to worry about getting thrown in the slammer for doing so.

Instead of issuing that kind of order, we sequester juries in cases in which there is a lot of publicity. It may not be as effective as what this judge did, but in the US, we have to balance the rights of the accused to get a fair trial with the First Amendment rights of individuals and media figures to comment on cases as they're happening.
 
Mr. Deez said:
I don't condone what he was doing, and I'm not familiar enough with UK law to say whether the judge was out of line or not.
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Yeah apparently it's legal and normal for judges to require that no reporting take place on a trial. It actually comes from a good place, as you say, but of course it also means that the government can do a whole lot of stuff without being checked.

My quotation was really about the philosophy that was reflected - the idea that free speech is a gift from the government. You don't have it unless the government allows it, so even if you're only allowed to talk about certain things, that is defined as "free speech." It is the reason why Europe will never truly be as free as the U.S. is/was.

As for Robinson, I know nothing about him other than that he was trying to draw attention to the idea of rape gangs who were basically grooming pre-teen girls for exactly the purposes that you would associate with a rape gang. Since those gangs are primarily composed of Muslims and they have risen to become an issue in the wake of UK's immigration policies, he's been saying that the country needs to acknowledge the issues with simply turning a blind eye to the impact of bringing in what he considers 15th century (or whatever century it was - I only heard his statement once) islamic practices which have no place in modern society.

I heard an exchange between him and a talk show host in the UK where he was talking about how basically "you elites don't have to deal with these things. Do you know anyone who was raped by one of these gangs? I do. Do you know someone who now wears a burka and can no longer associate with any of her family members? I do. Do you know someone whose life has been ruined because of the violence and rape that we're not being told about in the media? I do." And the host's response was (and this I remember word for word): "Those sound like your personal issues."
 
Mr. Deez said:
But if you wanted Roseanne ****-canned, I don't see how you would have much basis to complain. You're calling the guy out who called out your hypocrisy.
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My point is there is a hierarchy of insults and acceptable responses to them.

1. Calling someone dumb
2. Calling someone ugly or fat
3. Calling someone a B----
4. Calling someone a C---
5. Dropping a racial epitaph.
6. Comparing someone of African descent to an ape/monkey

Sam Bee and Ted Nugent each called a President's daughter a C. Trump did not call on Nugent to apologize or anything. He did not shun him. He's one of his celebrity supporters.

Roseanne did something that I can't come to any comparison. There's this: https://www.timesofisrael.com/crimi...-chief-rabbi-who-called-black-people-monkeys/

And, ironically, he did this after that: https://forward.com/fast-forward/40...y-israeli-rabbi-who-compared-black-people-to/
 
Not really defending her, but she did not actually call anyone a monkey. I do not know if you have seen the Planet of the Apes, but the “apes” in those movies are made up creatures that only resemble monkeys, especially in the 70s and 2000 versions. In fact, such fictional creatures were insulted when humans called them monkeys. Maybe Roseanne was refering to the recent versions where they actually look like monkeys and not bigfoot people? I do not think so, but who knows?

Anyway, she did not call anyone a monkey. She said that this person (who I had never heard of and have no idea why she is getting crude, childish insults thrown at her):

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looked like the offspring of a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, so presumably an Egyptian person, and this:

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a fictional ape-like creature.

While Roseanne’s comments were certainly mean, crude, rude, immature, worthy of condemnation and socially unacceptable and I do not support said comments, she did not actually call anyone a monkey.

The reason Trump succeeds is because the media and the left never accurately portray what he says. It is always exaggerated. The same thing happened to Roseanne. While what she said was bad, it is not accurate to say “she called a black person a monkey.” That is an exaggeration to make something that was already bad on its own unnecessarily sound worse. It is why people stop taking the media/the left seriously.

Bill Maher called Trump the offspring of an orangutan and was not fired or declared persona non grata by the left. Of course Trump sued him for it, so Trump should come out in support of this Valerie Jarrett (and I still have no idea what she has ever done to merit random insults about her appearance) suing Roseanne. In short, both Trump and the leftist media are hypocrites. Boo all of them.

Also, I never thought Roseanne was funny even back in the 90s and do not really care either way about Roseanne. I do know she has always been a “shock jock” and am suprised after decades of being offensive (generally against the right) only NOW is she too offensive. I mean, sure ABC could fire her for saying that, but they knew what they were getting when they hired her. It does seem rather disingenuous for the network to suddenly have a problem with her saying offensive things. Also, the same network cancelled Last Man Standing (a show I actually liked and found funny) because they were mad about the election, so I cannot say I really care about any negative blowback for ABC either.

Anyway, I just wanted to note that I reject the assertion that saying someone resembles the offspring of a planet of the apes ape-like creature is the same thing as calling someone a monkey. Those are two separate insults that are not of the same category. I hope that one day, I will live again in a country where insults are accurately described and not exaggerated. I am tired of exaggerations and the stupid concepts of “dog whistles” and “hidden meanings.”
 
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Htown77 said:
Not really defending her, but she did not actually call anyone a monkey. I do not know if you have seen the Planet of the Apes, but the “apes” in those movies are made up creatures that only resemble monkeys, especially in the 70s and 2000 versions....
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I admit I thought she was Iranian/Persian. I guess I confused her with another of Obama's females
 
OUBubba said:
My point is there is a hierarchy of insults and acceptable responses to them.

1. Calling someone dumb
2. Calling someone ugly or fat
3. Calling someone a B----
4. Calling someone a C---
5. Dropping a racial epitaph.
6. Comparing someone of African descent to an ape/monkey

Sam Bee and Ted Nugent each called a President's daughter a C. Trump did not call on Nugent to apologize or anything. He did not shun him. He's one of his celebrity supporters.
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How predictable is it that this once again becomes about Trump?
 
OUBubba said:
My point is there is a hierarchy of insults and acceptable responses to them.

1. Calling someone dumb
2. Calling someone ugly or fat
3. Calling someone a B----
4. Calling someone a C---
5. Dropping a racial epitaph.
6. Comparing someone of African descent to an ape/monkey

Sam Bee and Ted Nugent each called a President's daughter a C. Trump did not call on Nugent to apologize or anything. He did not shun him. He's one of his celebrity supporters.

Roseanne did something that I can't come to any comparison. There's this: https://www.timesofisrael.com/crimi...-chief-rabbi-who-called-black-people-monkeys/

And, ironically, he did this after that: https://forward.com/fast-forward/40...y-israeli-rabbi-who-compared-black-people-to/
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A few things on this. First, I agree with you that there is a hierarchy of insults. However, I don't agree that a racial epithet or saying that someone of African descent looks like an ape or monkey is worse than calling someone a c**t. Maybe it's because I've been around too many liberals who dropped N-bombs and said racist things, so I know that 90 percent of the outrage over racial comments (especially jokes) is phony, but I think it is possible to do worse. Calling a woman a c**t is an attack on that person's character. To me, that's worse.

Second, Ted Nugent is a disgusting pig, and the Right is very stupid to associate with him. As bad as his use of the word c**t is, he has said, sung about, and still sings about things that are much worse. However, bringing him up here is a diversion. Again, the Left is calling their critics hypocrites for pointing out their hypocrisy.

Third, can you really not come up with anything as bad as what Roseanne said? (And for the sake of discussion, we'll buy the exaggerated portrayal that you accept rather than the still bad but less offensive and more accurate portrayal that Htown pointed out.) Keep in mind that even accepting the Left's portrayal of Roseanne's comments, they were a terrible joke but a joke nonetheless. How about Holocaust denial or even worse, Holocaust celebration or advocacy? Can we agree that saying "all Jews should die" (and meaning it) is worse than saying "(insert black person's name) looks like an ape" (and not meaning it)? Or is it too much for someone on the Left to acknowledge that since their newly-found political allies in the Islamic world say crap like that everyday and to call them out for it every time would pretty much be a full time job for you guys?
 
Htown77 said:
The reason Trump succeeds is because the media and the left never accurately portray what he says. It is always exaggerated. The same thing happened to Roseanne. While what she said was bad, it is not accurate to say “she called a black person a monkey.” That is an exaggeration to make something that was already bad on its own unnecessarily sound worse. It is why people stop taking the media/the left seriously.
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They don't know how much this crap harms their credibility. They freak out so often and blow things so far out of proportion that large numbers of people are numb to it. Furthermore, they're so baldly hypocritical about their outrages that the only people who really care about it anymore are people who already buy into their agenda.

And it extends beyond stupid cultural stuff like whether or not Roseanne is on the air. Think about the "missing children" story. Of course, people are losing their minds about that and making it sound like Trump likes when children go missing if they're Mexicans. However, the problem existed before he took office, which makes the outrage sound phony. (In fact, there was never a time when the problem didn't exist.) Here's what's sad though - Trump actually did make a policy change that made the problem worse. It's fair game to be critical of it. However, the freak-out is unwarranted and fake, and for most people in key states (meaning not the coasts), it's pretty obvious.
 
Mr. Deez said:
Think about the "missing children" story. Of course, people are losing their minds about that and making it sound like Trump likes when children go missing if they're Mexicans.
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What's worse is that it's portrayed in a way that never would have happened under Obama... you know, when this all started. TO read the headlines and leads, you'd think that the immigration officers had grabbed the kids, pulled them off into some part of the building and then forgot where they were, leaving the kids to aimlessly walk the world looking for anyone to help them. What actually happens, as I understand it, is that they are required by law to release the kids into the care of a "relative" while the parents are being held. So shockingly, the kids disappear into the country somewhere with the relative, who most likely has been tasked with getting the kid safely hidden away and embedded in school somewhere, making it almost impossible to get the kid back. And we're all supposed to be surprised that there are so many kids that we lose track of?
 
ProdigalHorn said:
My quotation was really about the philosophy that was reflected - the idea that free speech is a gift from the government. You don't have it unless the government allows it, so even if you're only allowed to talk about certain things, that is defined as "free speech." It is the reason why Europe will never truly be as free as the U.S. is/was.
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Europe gives lip service to free speech, but the threshold to suppress free speech and press is MUCH lower than it is in the US. Accordingly, they do it far more often. Furthermore, they engage in viewpoint discrimination pretty overtly. Europeans are "free-ish."

ProdigalHorn said:
As for Robinson, I know nothing about him other than that he was trying to draw attention to the idea of rape gangs who were basically grooming pre-teen girls for exactly the purposes that you would associate with a rape gang. Since those gangs are primarily composed of Muslims and they have risen to become an issue in the wake of UK's immigration policies, he's been saying that the country needs to acknowledge the issues with simply turning a blind eye to the impact of bringing in what he considers 15th century (or whatever century it was - I only heard his statement once) islamic practices which have no place in modern society.

I heard an exchange between him and a talk show host in the UK where he was talking about how basically "you elites don't have to deal with these things. Do you know anyone who was raped by one of these gangs? I do. Do you know someone who now wears a burka and can no longer associate with any of her family members? I do. Do you know someone whose life has been ruined because of the violence and rape that we're not being told about in the media? I do." And the host's response was (and this I remember word for word): "Those sound like your personal issues."
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I don't take issue with everything Robinson does. Bringing awareness to the rape gang problem is a good thing, and bringing it up in the context of Islamic immigration and sometimes cultural depravity is fair game. He's right to do that, and it's the real reason that the European Left hates his guts. They crap on Nigel Farage the same way, and he's far more diplomatic.

However, I take issue with his approach. Like Trump, he paints with a ridiculously broad brush and says idiotic things from time to time. Furthermore, his activity outside the courthouse was not helpful. Shooting video of the defendants and calling them names, etc. is stupid. It shouldn't be against the law, but it is stupid.
 
ProdigalHorn said:
What's worse is that it's portrayed in a way that never would have happened under Obama... you know, when this all started. TO read the headlines and leads, you'd think that the immigration officers had grabbed the kids, pulled them off into some part of the building and then forgot where they were, leaving the kids to aimlessly walk the world looking for anyone to help them. What actually happens, as I understand it, is that they are required by law to release the kids into the care of a "relative" while the parents are being held. So shockingly, the kids disappear into the country somewhere with the relative, who most likely has been tasked with getting the kid safely hidden away and embedded in school somewhere, making it almost impossible to get the kid back. And we're all supposed to be surprised that there are so many kids that we lose track of?
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The reporting is no doubt partisan to an absurd and laughable degree, and you are correct about what actually happens. However, there are definitely ways to improve this. It could be and should be handled much better.
 
Mr. Deez said:
It could be and should be handled much better.
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Agreed - but the way to handle it is to send everyone back, and we're not going to do that. We passed a law in 2016 that forces us to split "families" up if they include minors (although libs would dispute that, saying, "you could just let the parents go, too.") The optics would be pretty bad, but the solution is to have regular flights using an army carrier, load everyone up and make daily return flights to Central America. After doing that for about a month, I think you'd see the traffic slow immensely. But that would be "cruel," because in liberal world, making it clear to people in impoverished countries that if they send their kids with a coyote through Mexico and put themselves at incredible personal risk, we wouldn't dream of turning them away because we're honestly very nice people and care too much... well that's an effective and humane immigration policy.
 
It seems like the same women who are constantly yapping about "toxic masculinity" are the same who attack Ivanka, Sarah Sanders, Kellyanne Conway, and countless others for their own views. ........

Maybe its not the toxic masculinity that's a problem in our culture, maybe its toxic feminism

Ignoring the double-standard for a moment and looking at this politically, this stuff may work to our advantage. Roseanne losing her job at the same time Samantha B receives an award will probably help Rs in November.
 
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A few thoughts...

1. First, hypocrites suck regardless of their political affiliation. They should be criticized at every opportunity and put on display for all to see. Most hypocrisy is unconscious thus the purveyors need to be made aware.
2. Planet of the APES isn't really about monkeys? Really? Rosanne has already received more media coverage than warranted but the attempt to claim she wasn't making a direct comparison to the old trope of blacks are monkeys strains credibility. It's dangerous not to point out racism when its smacking you upside the head. I'm in agreement with the rest of HTown's post.
3. If you called for Barr to be muzzled then you should do so for Bee. Though it wasn't a racial slur, the C word is a gender insult. Ivanka may be "feckless" but the rest is worthy of condemnation.
4. The media effed up the missing immigrant children story very badly. It plays into the Conservstive narrative. They need to do better. Mr Deez was correct that Trump's policies have exacerbated a problem that predated him. Then again, i don't think these children are missing in the normal sense we equate with "missing children". If everyone would simply slow down their media publication and consumption this story would have been more accurately portrayed.
 
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Clean said:
The 2018 NY Times Journalism Institute. WGNA (White Guys need not apply.)


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That program is specifically for underrepresented minorities in journalism. It took me 30 seconds to search NYT institute and find this: http://nytimes-institute.com/

The next Institute will be held from May 19 to June 3, 2018 for students (including those graduating in December or May) who are members of the National Association of Black Journalists and the National Association of Hispanic Journalists.
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Planet of the APES isn't really about monkeys? Really? Rosanne has already received more media coverage than warranted but the attempt to claim she wasn't making a direct comparison to the old trope of blacks are monkeys strains credibility. It's dangerous not to point out racism when its smacking you upside the head. I'm in agreement with the rest of HTown's post.
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See, it is not the classic trope though. Howard Cossell saying “look at the little monkey run” is the classic trope. If a klan member or other racist is going to use the classic trope, they are going to flat out call a dark skinned black person a monkey. Making a planet of the apes made up creature reference about someone who is not obviously black is not the same insult or trope. It is still wrong, condemnable, fireable, etc, etc. However, that is not the same meaning or intent. It is more in line with Maher’s “Trump looks like he came from an orangutan because of his hair” or “someone looks like an elf” kind of an insult. I think it is an exaggeration of the insult to claim it is the “classic racial monkey trope.”

It is Roseanne we are talking about as well. If she meant monkey, she would have said monkey. She did not. She instead referred “planet of the apes” creatures which have never been used in that trope. It is different. That is the whole problem with political correctness and jumping to racism. It is similar to when that guy had to resign for using “black hole” as far as adding meaning. What she said was bad on it’s face, but she did not use the classic racist trope which long predates those movies. Bill Maher had a pretty good rant about nuance a couple months ago.
 
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Htown77 said:
See, it is not the classic trope though. Howard Cossell saying “look at the little monkey run” is the classic trope. If a klan member or other racist is going to use the classic trope, they are going to flat out call a dark skinned black person a monkey. Making a planet of the apes made up creature reference about someone who is not obviously black is not the same insult or trope. It is still wrong, condemnable, fireable, etc, etc. However, that is not the same meaning or intent. It is more in line with Maher’s “Trump looks like he came from an orangutan because of his hair” or “someone looks like an elf” kind of an insult. I think it is an exaggeration of the insult to claim it is the “classic racial monkey trope.” It is Roseanne we are talking about as well. If she meant monkey, she would have said monkey. She did not. She instead referred “planet of the apes” creatures which have never been used in that trope. It is different. That is the whole problem with political correctness and jumping to racism. It is similar to when that guy had to resign for using “black hole” as far as adding meaning. What she said was bad on it’s face, but she did not use the classic trope. Bill Maher had a pretty good rant about nuance a couple months ago.
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We'll have to agree to disagree. Planet of the Apes characters aren't "monkey-like" but rather evolved monkeys. Nonetheless, they are monkeys. You may not know that Jarrett is part black but Barr most assuredly did which is whose intent we are gleaning.

With all that said, we've given Barr more dedicated words than she deserves. Time for her to sequester herself on her Hawaiian nut farm until she is able to get her next gig at a cheap roadside casino.
 
With all that said, we've given Barr morededicated words that she deserves. Time for her to sequester herself on her Hawaiian nut farmuntil she is able to get her next gig at a cheap roadside casino.
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That part we can agree on.
 
Here is Dictionary.com's definition of racism:

a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Please, point out where Rosanne's comment is racist based on the definition used above.

Could the comment be more inline with poor judgement, in bad taste, or inappropriate?

I think words like racism and racist are used too loosely now a days.
 
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