Can anyone justify NOT having the Wall?

[Austin_Bill]

Not really wall related, but if the government is offering incentives to companies to bring their factories home from China, we might need more workers.

Unemployment was pretty low before the pandemic, and if we bring all these jobs home, you can bet we aren't going to have enough workers to do them. I'm not for keeping the borders open, but rather making the process of coming here to work much easier. We still need a vetting process, but we are likely going to have lots of jobs and no one to fill them. I'm not against good people coming here, just the terrorist and criminals. Good people who come here to work and build up this country should be welcomed. But if they think they can sponge off the government, they need to be deported.

 

[Monahorns]

We aren't going to bring all the jobs home. Autarky isn't the way forward. Freer trade with more transparent and freer trade partners is the way forward.

 

[Joe Fan]

SIGH -- Even if this were true (and it probably isnt or not in many cases), this is still a policy argument, not a legal one, and thus irrelevant to the deliberations of a court

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[Mr. Deez]

And of course, Democrats are crapping their pants over this. Link. It just shows how out of touch with reality and reason they are. We're trying to stop a disease that spreads like wildfire and have just added 20 million Americans to the unemployment lines. Why the hell would we add any new immigrants right now? Where the hell are they going to work? I'm not anti-immigration per se, but there is a time not to have any. This is one of those times.

 

[iatrogenic]

But we are a country built by immigrants so that justifies and endless stream of immigrants!

We have also been taught by Libs that the country was built on the backs of slaves, so, based on historical precedent, we need to put 'em back in chains as Joe Biden so eloquently articulated. Don't forget that Clinton was the first black President as you round up the new labor force, and don't worry about having a minimum wage.

Come to think of it, let's kill some "native Americans" because the settlers did that as well.

 

[Joe Fan]

SCOTUS rules 5-4 for the Trump administration over immigration removal policy. Kavanaugh writing for majority. Case involved whether "resident" can stop removal from US if resident commits offense during first 7 yrs in US.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-725_6khn.pdf

 

[Monahorns]

Sounds like Trump isn't really accomplishing much on immigration. Even the things that are being reported as wins dissipate and blow away in the wind.

Trump Immigration Executive Order Inconveniences People Following Legal Immigration Process | National Review

 

[huisache]

immigration reform was a campaign issue that looked ok against the gop field in 2016.

He kicked the tires and they looked ok and so he bought the car and ran with it. He did not understand the issues involved and so he has yo yoed all over the place and nothing much has been done except give the dems a lot to screetch about to one of their needed constituencies. Trump has lumbered around like a mamoth at the ladies auxiliary luncheon, disturbed the tables and got nothing done.

I liked his noise on immigration limitations but it was just noise, which he has an infinite capacity for. Not what is needed.

And the alternatives we will face in November are ghastly.

a pox on both their houses

 

[iatrogenic]

immigration reform was a campaign issue that looked ok against the gop field in 2016.

He kicked the tires and they looked ok and so he bought the car and ran with it. He did not understand the issues involved and so he has yo yoed all over the place and nothing much has been done except give the dems a lot to screetch about to one of their needed constituencies. Trump has lumbered around like a mamoth at the ladies auxiliary luncheon, disturbed the tables and got nothing done.

I liked his noise on immigration limitations but it was just noise, which he has an infinite capacity for. Not what is needed.

And the alternatives we will face in November are ghastly.

a pox on both their houses

So what are the comparative numbers on immigration, legal and illegal, before and after he took office?

 

[huisache]

I dunno the official count but I talk to BP guys regularly and they agree with my South Texas ranching friends that it has not noticeably improved——but there are a lot more Chinese coming in. I had one client who got caught with 20 sitting amongst the cucumbers in his trailer

read Ann Coulter for an idea about what is going on

And President Pig Breakfast couldn’t get his wall built when he had majorities. I thought the cartels would tunnel or jump it but it looks like they are going to just cut holes in it instead

 

[NJlonghorn]

SIGH -- Even if this were true (and it probably isnt or not in many cases), this is still a policy argument, not a legal one, and thus irrelevant to the deliberations of a court

It is irrelevant on the merits, but would be a legitimate basis for SCOTUS to change its mind on whether to take the case. A DIG Order (Dismissed / Improvidently Granted) would let the Ninth Circuit’s ruling stand. I could see Roberts joining the liberals on such an order.

 

[Joe Fan]

Apparently the original draft of this EO was much stronger
It basically halted all foreign workforce flow to the US
But somebody talked him into changing it, making it weaker
Under the current circumstances, I do not see why we let anyone in (but we have been conducting H-1B and diversity visa lotteries throughout)

 

[Joe Fan]

It is irrelevant on the merits, but would be a legitimate basis for SCOTUS to change its mind on whether to take the case. A DIG Order (Dismissed / Improvidently Granted) would let the Ninth Circuit’s ruling stand. I could see Roberts joining the liberals on such an order.

I must admit this seems like the perfect issue for Roberts to waffle if he can just find an excuse.
However, the ultimate fate of DACA itself is sealed.

 

[NJlonghorn]

I must admit this seems like the perfect issue for Roberts to waffle if he can just find an excuse.
However, the ultimate fate of DACA itself is sealed.

I agree. The only way DACA survives is if the president (whether Trump or a successor) reinstates the policy before SCOTUS issues a merits ruling.

 

[BurntOrangeLH]

Too many forget that walls are solutions only to people who do neither understand tunnels, nor penetration nor vaulting them. One should reflect on Medieval warfare before presenting them as an absolute solution. Why we have the limited effectiveness saying, "Good fences makes good neighbors." Other forms of intrusion are nlissfully ignored beyond good mutually respectful intentions of adjacent parties.

To me, diverting military funding seems like a terribly ineffective and unjustified expenditure. What is next, a moat? And when that fails also?

 

[nashhorn]

nor vaulting them

I like that.

 

[Horn6721]

Did anyone EVER say the wall would stop 100%?

 

[Mr. Deez]

Did anyone EVER say the wall would stop 100%?

No, but on the immigration issue, it's the hill you're willing to die on.

 

[Horn6721]

Why?
Why does it have to be the all?
People who want to stop as many illegal aliens as possible realize it will be a combination of many things, the wall only being one.

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

Did anyone EVER say the wall would stop 100%?

Liberal logic when it comes to Republican policy is that if it isn't 100% effective then it is a failure.

 

[huisache]

The Rio Grande is our moat and it is a great one

The effective way to stop illegal immigration is to pitch a few hundred employers in the federal pen for minimal terms of say six months. The rest would shed illegals in QuickTime.

But it won't happen: the Republicans want cheap, docile labor and the Dems see millions of needy voters in a few years

Trump is making noise and accomplishing nothing

Oh, yes, the Chinese have said they will tone down the intellectual property theft which they deny doing anyway

 

[Austin_Bill]

Too many forget that walls are solutions only to people who do neither understand tunnels, nor penetration nor vaulting them. One should reflect on Medieval warfare before presenting them as an absolute solution. Why we have the limited effectiveness saying, "Good fences makes good neighbors." Other forms of intrusion are nlissfully ignored beyond good mutually respectful intentions of adjacent parties.

To me, diverting military funding seems like a terribly ineffective and unjustified expenditure. What is next, a moat? And when that fails also?

That's why one of the 7 wonders of the world is the Great fence of China.

 

[iatrogenic]

Too many forget that walls are solutions only to people who do neither understand tunnels, nor penetration nor vaulting them. One should reflect on Medieval warfare before presenting them as an absolute solution. Why we have the limited effectiveness saying, "Good fences makes good neighbors." Other forms of intrusion are nlissfully ignored beyond good mutually respectful intentions of adjacent parties.

To me, diverting military funding seems like a terribly ineffective and unjustified expenditure. What is next, a moat? And when that fails also?

Great points. If it doesn’t work perfectly, don’t do it at all.

Apply that reasoning to everything else in life and see if you find any commonality.

 

[Joe Fan]

Apparently the original draft of this EO was much stronger
It basically halted all foreign workforce flow to the US
But somebody talked him into changing it, making it weaker
Under the current circumstances, I do not see why we let anyone in (but we have been conducting H-1B and diversity visa lotteries throughout)

So it sounds like the WH read my post about the weaknesses of this EO and they are now talking about making it tougher

Trump officials eye 'additional steps' after executive order on immigration

 

[Joe Fan]

The Rio Grande is our moat and it is a great one
The effective way to stop illegal immigration is to pitch a few hundred employers in the federal pen for minimal terms of say six months. The rest would shed illegals in QuickTime.
But it won't happen: the Republicans want cheap, docile labor and the Dems see millions of needy voters in a few years
Trump is making noise and accomplishing nothing
Oh, yes, the Chinese have said they will tone down the intellectual property theft which they deny doing anyway

I thought you were going to follow sentence one with "now let's fill it with crocodiles!"

 

[Mr. Deez]

Why?
Why does it have to be the all?
People who want to stop as many illegal aliens as possible realize it will be a combination of many things, the wall only being one.

Even though I don't think it'll do that much, I've pretty much made peace with the idea of a wall if it's part of a broader effort with much more effective measures to stop illegal immigration. The problem is that something that does nothing about visa overstays and isn't that hard for border jumpers to circumvent is becoming the poison pill that prevents something real from happening.

 

[Monahorns]

At this point Trump isn't even dealing with illegal felons with any improved efficiency. Start with a baby step. The illegal needs to be held for life in his country of origin. Or maybe death penalty. I know that has lots of problems with it, but start with illegal felons. Find a solution for them. Then move to step 2.

 

[Garmel]

Why?
Why does it have to be the all?
People who want to stop as many illegal aliens as possible realize it will be a combination of many things, the wall only being one.

Yep. Using their logic you might as well not have cops because they are not a 100% effective way to stop crime. However, using different methods (including cops) we keep the crime rate low. Using just one method to stop illegal immigration will not work because there's no one magic bullet to stop it.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Yep. Using their logic you might as well not have cops because they are not a 100% effective way to stop crime. However, using different methods (including cops) we keep the crime rate low. Using just one method to stop illegal immigration will not work because there's no one magic bullet to stop it.

The problem isn't its imperfection (though it is wildly imperfect). The problem is that its political toxicity prevents action on other things that would be far more effective. For example, it would be politically difficult to oppose mandatory e-verify. However, it's not difficult to oppose it if it's tied to building a wall.