Can anyone justify NOT having the Wall?

Is that the difference-maker? So if you're the parent, you'd have your US citizen child live in squalor and shovel **** for the rest of his life, because he might be on Medicaid for a few years if he stays in the US? I'm glad you're not my dad. Lol
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Yes. If I am the parent I agree with Deez. If I am the government or an American citizen I might agree with Horn6721, but you would have to change the law.
 
Horn6721 said:
Look it would be wonderful if we could lift every single person in the world out of squalor, We can't. This is a reality.So the illegal who snuck in and got deported goes back to whatever he/she did before like the other millions who did not break our laws.
I would rather our benefits go to people here rather than to take care of someone whose parents broke our law and gamed our system.
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We're not talking about every person in the world. We're talking about a US citizen with as much right to be here as you and me.
 
Yes they do because of the way the 14th Amendment has been interpreted.
That does not mean I think it is right to be gamed into having to use taxes to rear a child whose parents broke the law to have an anchor baby here.
 
Horn6721 said:
Yes they do because of the way the 14th Amendment has been interpreted.
That does not mean I think it is right to be gamed into having to use taxes to rear a child whose parents broke the law to have an anchor baby here.
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Hell, two of the framers of the 14th amendment made it clear what they meant and the courts just ignored them.
 
Horn6721 said:
Yes they do because of the way the 14th Amendment has been interpreted.
That does not mean I think it is right to be gamed into having to use taxes to rear a child whose parents broke the law to have an anchor baby here.
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Well, it's being interpreted to mean what it says. I don't like the result or the policy, but I can't call myself a strict constructionist and reach a different outcome.

Garmel said:
Hell, two of the framers of the 14th amendment made it clear what they meant and the courts just ignored them.
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Two problems with this. First, the intent of the authors of a law aren't determinative when it comes to interpreting a law. It's the intent of the legislature collectively that matters.

Second, that intent is ascertained first and foremost by the words used in the law. The rule of law itself depends on that. If Congress meant something other than birthright citizenship, they could have and should have said so.
 
Mr. Deez said:
Well, it's being interpreted to mean what it says. I don't like the result or the policy, but I can't call myself a strict constructionist and reach a different outcome.



Two problems with this. First, the intent of the authors of a law aren't determinative when it comes to interpreting a law. It's the intent of the legislature collectively that matters.

Second, that intent is ascertained first and foremost by the words used in the law. The rule of law itself depends on that. If Congress meant something other than birthright citizenship, they could have and should have said so.
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So if a Liberal say's we don't need the electoral college or we need more regulation of guns because times have changed etc. can we not say birthright is no longer effective or smart because times have changed?
 
bystander said:
So if a Liberal say's we don't need the electoral college or we need more regulation of guns because times have changed etc. can we not say birthright is no longer effective or smart because times have changed?
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We can if we don't care about the rule of law the same way they don't care. I do care about it.
 
Mr. Deez said:
Two problems with this. First, the intent of the authors of a law aren't determinative when it comes to interpreting a law. It's the intent of the legislature collectively that matters.

Second, that intent is ascertained first and foremost by the words used in the law. The rule of law itself depends on that. If Congress meant something other than birthright citizenship, they could have and should have said so.
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That's your opinion, Deez. Original intent is a huge factor. Don't tell me I'm wrong because I know many lawyers who agree with me on the 14th.
 
This Sotomayor really is polluting my mind. How blatant can she be as a plant for Latino's and Mexico? She is acting like a House Representative; totally partisan and unstatesmanlike. I was bothered when Obama's second pick was denied by delay. Not anymore. She is the one who should be impeached, not conservative justices who err as close on point with the law AS WRITTEN as they can. It's sick.
 
Horn6721 said:
by
I knew that. It was not directed at you.
I wish there was a remote chance to amend the 14th
But I do not think there is
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The problem when words alone define the law without original intent being a factor you get:

1) 14th amendment misinterpretation
2) We almost got the 2nd amendment destroyed.

The problem with words alone is that 1) Words can be easily interpreted to mean something else (14th amendment) 2) Words change meaning over time. (the word "regulated") which almost got the 2nd amendment overturned.

This is why liberal lawyers hate original intent. Much harder to overturn something they don't like.
 
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Mr. Deez said:
You're wrong, and the lawyers who agree with you are hacks. No offense.
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These same lawyer friends you called hacks have looked over your posts over the last few years and they've told me a few things how they feel about you. I'll list some of the things they said:

1) A few thought you should stick to insurance and keep your trap shut about everything else.
2) A few don't even believe you're even a real lawyer.
3) I did find one that agreed with you on a few topics (14th) over me but he still thought you're a jackass.
4) That one time you said that Trump should be investigated because he was licking Putin's balls(paraphrase) one of my friends who was looking over my shoulder turned to me and said, "This guy is an idiot. "

Many of them are more accomplished than you are. You always have to make these arguments personal and you just did. I told you before the more I interact with you the more I understand why you and Husker get along so swimmingly.

Deez, being a conservative means believing in originalism. Hell, it's the heart of conservatism. When you praise yahoos like Laurence Tribe you're on the wrong side.
 
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Garmel said:
The problem when words alone define the law without original intent being a factor you get:

1) 14th amendment
2) Abortion
3) We almost got the 2nd amendment destroyed.

The problem with words alone is that 1) Words can be easily interpreted to mean something else (14th amendment) 2) Words change over time. (the word "regulated") which almost got the 2nd amendment overturned.

This is why liberal lawyers hate original intent. Much harder to overturn something they don't like.
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Does the definition of a word 250 years ago require intent or just knowledge? From what I understand, well-regulated meant drilled; organized and not regulations in terms of limitations, background checks and limits on firepower. I believe the Left knows this and just don't care. So is it intent or is it definitional?

I always thought the use of the word "arms" in the 2nd amendment to be genius; it's scalable. What if they had said muskets, swords and knives?
 
Before I get into this, I was honestly busting your balls jokingly with my last post. I didn't mean to offend, and I apologize to you and your friends if I did. However, you are still wrong or at a minimum, misunderstanding.

Garmel said:
These same lawyer friends you called hacks have looked over your posts over the last few years and they've told me a few things how they feel about you. I'll list some of the things they said:

1) A few thought you should stick to insurance and keep your trap shut about everything else.
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Well, at least they admit that I'm authoritative about insurance. Lol. Finding lawyers who disagree with me on something isn't hard. I'm a conservative plaintiffs' attorney and a strict constructionist and outspoken and unapologetic about all of it. There are like 3 of us on the planet. We're used to being disagreed with, told that we're wrong, and sometimes ridiculed.

Garmel said:
2) A few don't even believe you're even a real lawyer.
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That's fine. You don't have to think I'm a lawyer. My professed credentials don't make me right. A one-armed, illiterate donkey show fluffer in Nuevo Laredo saying the same thing would be just as right.

Garmel said:
3) I did find one that agreed with you on a few topics (14th) over me but he still thought you're a jackass.
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If you found one who disagrees with me on the 14th, he is the black sheep. That's probably a 90-10 issue in the legal community. And yes, I can be a jackass. I try to be respectful, but there are definitely times when I'm not.

Furthermore, at least around here, I hold conservatives to a higher standard. There's crap that I'll take from OUBubba that I won't take from you, because you should know better. To invoke Chris Rock, calling a guy like him out everytime he's wrong is like playing one on one with a retarded kid and calling him for double dribbling. You have to let some **** slide. Otherwise, I'd be correcting him all day long. You're in a different boat. I can afford to nitpick and hassle you when you're wrong, because you're not wrong several times each day.

Garmel said:
4) That one time you said that Trump should be investigated because he was licking Putin's balls(paraphrase) one of my friends who was looking over my shoulder turned to me and said, "This guy is an idiot. "
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Was it only one time?? That ball licking reference really rubbed you the wrong way. In recent years you've brought it up more than I have - makes me wonder if you've got an issue on that practice. Either way, whether you've noticed it or were too preoccupied with the thought of ball licking (either giving or receiving) I've walked back the Putin stuff in recent years and even defended Trump on it a few times. It's not because he didn't rhetorically lick his balls. He said what he said. However, his policy (fortunately) hasn't been consistent with the rhetoric. Nevertheless, if you polled the legal profession (since you're playing that card to try to discredit me), I'm willing to bet that far more agreed with me that that an investigation was justified even if not handled correctly or fairly.

Garmel said:
Many of them are more accomplished than you are.
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I stopped practicing after ten years and became a stay at home dad. I hope they're more accomplished. If legal accomplishment was priority 1 for me, I'd still be in Austin practicing. I enjoyed doing it, but I valued something else more and don't apologize for that or care if anyone thinks I'm unaccomplished or less of an authority because of it.

Garmel said:
Deez, being a conservative means believing in originalism . When you praise yahoos like Laurence Tribe you're on the wrong side
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I called Laurence Tribe the "Paul Krugman of Constitutional Law." That's not a compliment or praise. Quite the contrary. I give Tribe's opinions very little weight.

Garmel said:
The problem with words alone is that 1) Words can be easily interpreted to mean something else (14th amendment) 2) Words change meaning over time. (the word "regulated") which almost got the 2nd amendment overturned.

This is why liberal lawyers hate original intent. Much harder to overturn something they don't like.
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You don't get it. My view (which would be commonly known as textualism) isn't inconsistent with original intent. It means that the text is supreme when ascertaining original intent. It doesn't mean you let the definition evolve with the times. You follow the ordinary meaning of the words used in the law at the time they were written. So no, we don't apply the 21st century definition of "regulate" when looking at the Second Amendment or the interstate commerce clause. We apply the 18th century definition.

However, the key factor is that we don't let one member of Congress say "we enacted X but we meant Y" and then pretend that has more authority than the actual words Congress passed into law. If Congress wants a different definition applied (whether it's narrower, broader, or just different), they can say so by including a definitions section in the law they pass, or they can change the law. However, one guy's comment isn't going to trump the words used and shouldn't induce the judiciary to set aside the ordinary meaning of the words to suit his intent. If we do, then we're effectively making that one lawmaker the true legislative authority rather than Congress as a whole. If you prefer to be governed by the mindless ramblings of people like Maxine Waters or Ilhan Omar, that's up to you. I prefer something a little more objective. It's not perfect, but it's much better and less prone to tyranny.
 
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bystander said:
This Sotomayor really is polluting my mind. How blatant can she be as a plant for Latino's and Mexico? She is acting like a House Representative; totally partisan and unstatesmanlike. I was bothered when Obama's second pick was denied by delay. Not anymore. She is the one who should be impeached, not conservative justices who err as close on point with the law AS WRITTEN as they can. It's sick.
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This is a continuation of the Liberal coup:

Senators demand records illuminating dark money ties to Supreme Court appointments

Remember, Sotomayor is their idea of a jurist. It's sick.
 
The problem when words alone define the law without original intent being a factor you get:

1) 14th amendment misinterpretation
2) We almost got the 2nd amendment destroyed.

The problem with words alone is that 1) Words can be easily interpreted to mean something else (14th amendment) 2) Words change meaning over time. (the word "regulated") which almost got the 2nd amendment overturned.

This is why liberal lawyers hate original intent. Much harder to overturn something they don't like.
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I am going with Garmel on this one. If you don't consider original intent, then the words used don't mean anything. The lawyer is then free to twist and contort them to mean whatever he wants. That isn't rule of law. That is arbitrary rule of men.
 
Does the definition of a word 250 years ago require intent or just knowledge? From what I understand, well-regulated meant drilled; organized and not regulations in terms of limitations, background checks and limits on firepower. I believe the Left knows this and just don't care. So is it intent or is it definitional?

I always thought the use of the word "arms" in the 2nd amendment to be genius; it's scalable. What if they had said muskets, swords and knives?
Click to expand...

It is both bystander. You use the definitions as understood by the author. However, even if you agree on the definitions there can be differences in interpretation. That is why you go back to previous laws, previous writings by the authors, and what people were saying about the law at the time. To do anything less is to neglect your duty as a lawyer or judge.
 
Monahorns said:
It is both bystander. You use the definitions as understood by the author. However, even if you agree on the definitions there can be differences in interpretation. That is why you go back to previous laws, previous writings by the authors, and what people were saying about the law at the time. To do anything less is to neglect your duty as a lawyer or judge.
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Does SCOTUS reference The Federalist Papers?

Also, I'm wondering if intent here really means, "The people can arm themselves for whatever reason they want without having to actually state that reason" or "The people can only arm themselves if they are a regular part of a well-drilled militia made up of citizens, separate from the actual army."
 
However, the key factor is that we don't let one member of Congress say "we enacted X but we meant Y" and then pretend that has more authority than the actual words Congress passed into law. If Congress wants a different definition applied (whether it's narrower, broader, or just different), they can say so by including a definitions section in the law they pass, or they can change the law. However, one guy's comment isn't going to trump the words used and shouldn't induce the judiciary to set aside the ordinary meaning of the words to suit his intent. If we do, then we're effectively making that one lawmaker the true legislative authority rather than Congress as a whole. If you prefer to be governed by the mindless ramblings of people like Maxine Waters or Ilhan Omar, that's up to you. I prefer something a little more objective. It's not perfect, but it's much better and less prone to tyranny.
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That is a good explanation, but I will offer an additional thought.

If you are using 1 Congressman's words to interpret a law and ignoring all others that disagree with you, then I completely agree.

However, we have historical records of the different parties at the time. So you can read the words of multiple Congressmen, how they explain the law, the debates over the law, etc. That is what I mean by original intent. It isn't merely definitions. It isn't only the words in the law, though that is the first priority. It isn't even the words of one politician commenting on the law. It is the full body of commentary on the law when it was drafted, debated, voted on, and later explained.

I will say I would give more weight to the actual author(s) of the law, than what others said about it. If a Congressman writes a bill, explains what he means and debates it with others, I am going to focus on that since he is the source.
 
Monahorns said:
I am going with Garmel on this one. If you don't consider original intent, then the words used don't mean anything. The lawyer is then free to twist and contort them to mean whatever he wants. That isn't rule of law. That is arbitrary rule of men.
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Yep. It's pretty much common sense. This is why conservatives are originalists.
 
Mr. Deez said:
I stopped practicing after ten years and became a stay at home dad. I hope they're more accomplished. If legal accomplishment was priority 1 for me, I'd still be in Austin practicing. I enjoyed doing it, but I valued something else more and don't apologize for that or care if anyone thinks I'm unaccomplished or less of an authority because of it.
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I did that myself back in 1999 for about a year. I compliment you on your priorities. I heard mixed messages from the men I knew. But I'm glad I did it.
 
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