Can anyone justify NOT having the Wall?

Mr. Deez said:
The problem isn't its imperfection (though it is wildly imperfect). The problem is that its political toxicity prevents action on other things that would be far more effective. For example, it would be politically difficult to oppose mandatory e-verify. However, it's not difficult to oppose it if it's tied to building a wall.
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I'm not certain E-verify is actually better. The main issue is that no one wants to enforce it.
 
Garmel said:
I'm not certain E-verify is actually better. The main issue is that no one wants to enforce it.
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That's always a potential problem, and it exists with the wall as well. The key thing E-verify does is create a paper trail. It eliminates the "I'm stupid" defense that currently exists. If it was mandatory, virtually no employers wouldn't follow it on the off-chance that it might get enforced on him. Keep in mind that even with the current joke of a law, it does sometimes get enforced.

Having said that, mandatory e-verify on its own wouldn't have near the clout as mandatory e-verify coupled with the private civil action. Do both, and you'd virtually never see an illegal immigrant in the United States again.
 
Mr. Deez said:
Having said that, mandatory e-verify on its own wouldn't have near the clout as mandatory e-verify coupled with the private civil action. Do both, and you'd virtually never see an illegal immigrant in the United States again.
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That sounds good but that doesn't hinder the illegal drug trade. Too many criminals who are not interested in work here won't be stopped by that. That's why we need multiple ways to stop illegals and a wall helps considerably.
 
Garmel said:
That sounds good but that doesn't hinder the illegal drug trade. Too many criminals who are not interested in work here won't be stopped by that. That's why we need multiple ways to stop illegals and a wall helps considerably.
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It's true that e-verify doesn't do much for the illegal drug trade facet of illegal immigration. However, with far fewer illegal workers, a huge amount of ICE and Border Patrol resources get freed up to focus on illegal aliens involved in criminal enterprises. Can the wall help with that? Perhaps, if it's guarded, which a Democratic or business-oriented Republican administration won't do.

Remember, it was easy to get across the Berlin Wall. What was hard was doing so without getting shot.
 
iatrogenic said:
New border wall blocks 90% of illegal crossings, up from just 10%

New border wall blocks 90% of illegal crossings, up from just 10%
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That may be true, but I wonder how much of that is dependent on enforcement coupled with wall. Obviously, a Democrat will occupy the White House again, and he will be much laxer on enticement than Trump or even Obama. (In fact, on actually deporting people, Obama was probably closer to Trump than to the modern Democratic Party. They've moved wildly Left on the issue just in the last three years. Even Hillary was much more open borders than Obama was.) When that happens, nobody will be enforcing the border. Will the wall be a big help when a ladder or a rope and a Mexican dude on the other side is enough to overcome it?
 
"And, in an added benefit, it now requires 150 fewer border agents, a savings of $28 million in salaries and benefits, he said at a press briefing, his first since he and Ortiz took over CBP in January."

I think the success is interdependent. Both the border agents and wall play a part. Obviously, the wall improves enforcement by 800% while also improving the surrounding areas, and materially reducing manpower costs. To say the wall doesn't work, as many on this board have said, is just another baseless political narrative proven false by empirical evidence.
 
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I am amazed people who oppose the wall do not understand that even in the old days agents would be near the wall to apprehend those who the agents knew would climb over or break through.
Now with a tougher higher wall, drones and surveillance devices the agents can more easily monitor the wall and arrest those who climb over.
The tunnels will still be used. There is no 100%
 
iatrogenic said:
I think the success is interdependent. Both the border agents and wall play a part. Obviously, the wall improves enforcement by 800% while also improving the surrounding areas, and materially reducing manpower costs. To say the wall doesn't work, as many on this board have said, is just another baseless political narrative proven false by empirical evidence.
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I wouldn't say that it doesn't work at all. The big justification I've always heard is that the wall will stop (or generally stop) border crossers after Trump is gone - even if a Democrat (or an overly business-friendly Republican) gets elected. I don't think that's true, because the wall's effectiveness is dependent on border enforcement. Without that, it's just a wall that can be pretty easily scaled. By itself, it'll stop quadriplegics and 90 year old ladies, but that's about it.

Suppose Biden wins in 2020. I think we know what he'll do with border security. It effectively won't exist. Well, if it doesn't exist, the wall won't be much of a factor. I'll refer back to the Berlin Wall. When there were thousands of armed East German guards with shoot-to-kill orders, it was tough to cross. Once those guards stood down in 1989, thousands simply climbed over. I don't see much reason to believe that won't happen with the border wall next time a Democrat occupies the White House.
 
Mr. Deez said:
I wouldn't say that it doesn't work at all. The big justification I've always heard is that the wall will stop (or generally stop) border crossers after Trump is gone - even if a Democrat (or an overly business-friendly Republican) gets elected. I don't think that's true, because the wall's effectiveness is dependent on border enforcement. Without that, it's just a wall that can be pretty easily scaled. By itself, it'll stop quadriplegics and 90 year old ladies, but that's about it.

Suppose Biden wins in 2020. I think we know what he'll do with border security. It effectively won't exist. Well, if it doesn't exist, the wall won't be much of a factor. I'll refer back to the Berlin Wall. When there were thousands of armed East German guards with shoot-to-kill orders, it was tough to cross. Once those guards stood down in 1989, thousands simply climbed over. I don't see much reason to believe that won't happen with the border wall next time a Democrat occupies the White House.
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If a democrat won't support a wall they probably won't support mandatory E-verify. These new walls are not easy to scale and by the time you get over you'll have an officer waiting for you.
 
Garmel said:
If a democrat won't support a wall they probably won't support mandatory E-verify.
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Much harder for them to oppose it from both a legal and a political standpoint. Nevertheless, that's the point of the private civil action. They don't need to enforce it for it to be enforced.

Garmel said:
These new walls are not easy to scale
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Walking hundreds of miles to lay bricks in 100 degree heat isn't easy either. It's about what they're willing to do.

Garmel said:
by the time you get over you'll have an officer waiting for you.
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But that's the point. An officer will only be waiting for you if the Adminstration wants to enforce the law. A Democratic administration will not.
 
Mr. Deez said:
I wouldn't say that it doesn't work at all. The big justification I've always heard is that the wall will stop (or generally stop) border crossers after Trump is gone - even if a Democrat (or an overly business-friendly Republican) gets elected. I don't think that's true, because the wall's effectiveness is dependent on border enforcement. Without that, it's just a wall that can be pretty easily scaled. By itself, it'll stop quadriplegics and 90 year old ladies, but that's about it.

Suppose Biden wins in 2020. I think we know what he'll do with border security. It effectively won't exist. Well, if it doesn't exist, the wall won't be much of a factor. I'll refer back to the Berlin Wall. When there were thousands of armed East German guards with shoot-to-kill orders, it was tough to cross. Once those guards stood down in 1989, thousands simply climbed over. I don't see much reason to believe that won't happen with the border wall next time a Democrat occupies the White House.
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Of course your argument is correct. The wall is just a tool, but a very effective one when the intent is to keep out illegals. A prison is very effective unless someone decides that guards are not going to man the walls or an idiot releases prisoners so they don't contract coronavirus, and a car is only an effective means of transportation if there is a driver.

When the intent is to enforce the laws governing immigration, the wall is an extremely effective tool.
 
When you see how open the border is where they are building the wall you realize how how easy it was to just stroll across.
Haters? NO it will not stop 100% and yes illegals can still use 60 ft ladders but there will also be camera and drone coverage and catching those illegals will be easier.
 



I want to know when we started to allows traitors and treason to be not only tolerated but accepted. This isn't acceptable. This is Vietnam all over again. Only these aren't hippies these are our elected leaders.
 
You might recall there there were some attempts by Mexican Police to take back parts of Sinaloa last Fall?
But the police got their asses kicked and had to withdraw (I wrote about it above)
Well, it is totally underreported in the US, but a lot of cartel hitmen have been getting whacked at a pace never seen before. Possibly with US intel

Yesterday - El Chino Ántrax is dead. Who is that? He was El Chapo's top hitman (he probably should have been put in prison in 2014 but may have received cover from Eric Holder)

May 16 - The hitmen of 'El Marro' from the Santa Rosa de Lima Cartel is dead. 9 total assassins were killed in an armed attack in Acatlán

May 16 - In a fight between El Fabián vs. La Unión, there were 5 executions in 2 days in CDMX

May 16 - a confrontation between armed groups in Sinaloa left 4 dead hitmen

And from this Jan -- 'La Catrina,' the female boss of New Generation Cartel in Jalisco met her end Female cartel boss known as ‘Dame of Death’ killed in shootout with Mexican state forces
 
Even the NYT is forced to admit things have changed on the border -- including shutting the Obama Era “Unaccompanied Alien Child”‘ pipeline

Hundreds of migrant children and teenagers have been swiftly deported by American authorities amid the coronavirus pandemic without the opportunity to speak to a social worker or plea for asylum from the violence in their home countries — a reversal of years of established practice for dealing with young foreigners who arrive in the United States.

The deportations represent an extraordinary shift in policy that has been unfolding in recent weeks on the southwestern border, under which safeguards that have for decades been granted to migrant children by both Democratic and Republican administrations appear to have been abandoned.​

They were able to do this thanks to the coronavirus and Title 42, which allows border agents to block any migrants coming across the border at the request of the CDC (which overrides the Obama Admin views on the coyote/agency pipeline). The Trump Admin is using CDC orders and Title 42 to create a barrier that continues until "the serious danger from #COVID19 has ceased.”
10 Years Old, Tearful and Confused After a Sudden Deportation

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The people directly involved in the human trafficking are shocked that their children are being returned to them --

When she lost an initial [asylum] decision, she decided [the 10-year-old boy] would be better off temporarily with her brother in the United States. She watched him swim across the Rio Grande.

The woman expected he would be treated the same as before, when such children were picked up by the U.S. Border Patrol and taken to Department of Health and Human Services facilities for eventual placement with a sponsor, usually a relative.

But the mother heard nothing until six days later, when her family received a call from a shelter in Honduras. “They had thrown him out to Honduras,” she said. “We didn’t know anything.”​

Why youth migrants at U.S. border face immediate deportation
 
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