Not a good choice of words in these hyper-sensitive times we live in.
Boyer' open letter to Kaepernick
- Thread starter NJlonghorn
- Start date
Not a good choice of words in these hyper-sensitive times we live in.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Here is an NPR piece on a player that chose not to kneel but supports those that do. This piece is focused on what Doug Baldwin is doing behind the scenes towards understanding the complex issue and working with all sides towards a resolution.
On multiple occasions there has been an insinuation that the players protesting aren't trying to solve the problem. In reality, that couldn't be further from the truth.
From memory, Baldwin (who's father is a Police officer) stated that though he doesn't kneel he supports the players that are kneeling. He recognized those that are kneeing "irritates" many and that is the purpose of the kneeling, irritating enough to talk about the issues.
On multiple occasions there has been an insinuation that the players protesting aren't trying to solve the problem. In reality, that couldn't be further from the truth.
From memory, Baldwin (who's father is a Police officer) stated that though he doesn't kneel he supports the players that are kneeling. He recognized those that are kneeing "irritates" many and that is the purpose of the kneeling, irritating enough to talk about the issues.
How easy is it to achieve your goal by irritating someone you will most likely never meet face to face? You start from a position of antagonism. They always talk about honey versus vinegar. I'm not sure I understand the merits of the tactic itself.
So why is it that I get caught up in this as white guy who lives in The Woodlands? Seems like a local policing issue coupled with an overarching culture and/or sociological problem of single motherhood in the black community. You know I might be inclined to help with the former if the players helped with the latter (which is laughable since the NFL isn't exactly overrun with family men).
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
Some examples
Jim MacMahon was fined $5,000 in 1986 for this form of "speech"
The NFL prohibited the Cowboys from paying tribute to five murdered Dallas police officers
Titans LB Avery Williamson was threatened by the NFL with a fine if he wore these cleats during an NFL game
Goalposts dunks have been banned -- form of speech, yes?
The NFL also bans twerking (thankfully)
Whatever this is, is also banned. The NFL originally threatened to fine Elliott for it in 2016, but then backed off. Anyone who does it in 2017 will be fined
No, I'm sure you and I, a white guy living in the southwest Chicago suburbs, would be more than welcomed with open arms in the black communities of the Chicago south side. Our input as to how they could better live their lives and improve relations with the police would be heeded and improvement would follow.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Would they even be getting the audience they are getting without the "irritation"? Per the interview, Doug Baldwin has personally met with politicians, law enforcement and body camera manufacturers. If not for Kaepernick starting the kneeling do those groups feel the urgency to meet with him and others?
I'm talking about the millions of fans that are the root of the value of the franchises; sorry I should have been clearer on that point.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
That fan irritation is a collective spotlight on the issue, is it not?
And their reaction is net, unfavorable. He started right out of the gate asking everyone to choose between him sitting or respecting the flag. The room was divided up right there. And some will never come around to his point of view because they were made to choose.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Is it? It's part of the national dialogue now. You now have police that may rightfully think twice about their own use of violence. You now have police in inner cities like Baltimore rethinking their policies and actually working with community groups. Is it showing immediate results everywhere? Nope, but talking/listening is a start, isn't it? That change of culture within some PD's from avoidance of the topic to working through the nuances is helped by keeping this topic on the forefront of the national dialogue.
It wasn't stated in the interview but Baldwin is a big proponent of body cameras because it makes all sides think twice about committing an act of violence. We forget but body cameras were thrust forward in the wake of the Michael Brown and others sagas.
Look, the BLM picks many of the wrong fights (see Brown) but the tension is real. When it made national news that the Ferguson PD had 3 AA officers among their 59 total officers to police an area that is 70% black it's easy to understand how race might be an issue. My wife is a minority teacher (50% Philipino) and a consistent discussion point at her district level is how to bring their teach demography closer to match the students. It's important for minority students to have models to in their teachers.
Leftists are always surprised when half the country (or population) don't follow their lead. In other countries, that's when the fireworks start, particularly if the leftists are in charge.
NJlonghorn
2,500+ Posts
Kaepernick has definitely made progress toward his goal of creating awareness. The media is covering the issue more extensively, and politicians are talking about it. He has prodded many people to spend some time thinking about what its like to be black in America. That's a good thing, imho, regardless of whether those people end up thinking that blacks are mistreated.
Kaepernick has put the NFL is in a real pickle. Yes, they can control whether these protests should be allowed to occur. However, their fan base is heavily split, and any decision would cost them market share. I suspect that they continue to allow the protests because they'd have labor unrest if they didn't. This started as one player making noise, but it has turned into much more than that. The players have a lot of leverage over the league if they speak with one voice.
Kaepernick has put the NFL is in a real pickle. Yes, they can control whether these protests should be allowed to occur. However, their fan base is heavily split, and any decision would cost them market share. I suspect that they continue to allow the protests because they'd have labor unrest if they didn't. This started as one player making noise, but it has turned into much more than that. The players have a lot of leverage over the league if they speak with one voice.
It is difficult to have 'diversity' when you don't have applicants from those groups seeking 'diversity.' Granted, when you have that pesky 'no criminal conviction' requirement to be a law enforcement officer, it eliminates a number of people, but the reality is that there is not a lot of the non-white community clamoring to be hired in law enforcement and even the white segment of the community is losing interest now that open targets have been placed upon them (to say nothing of the pension issues that more and more people have become aware of).
I doubt that most of those 59 officers applied to Ferguson thinking to themselves "hey I get to go jack with some black people now and get away with it."
Teaching is no different. The reality is that some districts are NOT going to draw a large number of applicants, although for different reasons...notably not enough money to go teach in an effing war zone.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
That's an excuse. For comparison, here is an infographic on the ethnic makeup of the LAPD. Like any company working towards diversity, it simply takes a little effort. For LA it started when they began grooming and hiring people directly from the communities that they police. Living in the community you police helps bridge the gap through off-duty involvement. For example, if that police officer is also a youth football coach, that has an immense impact on the perception from both parties.
Kaepernick didn't make me more aware. The Martin and Brown cases were well-documented as was BLM's creation and subsequent actions. Kaepernick also muddied the waters for me with his Castro shirt (I'm half-Cuban so maybe I'm biased) and by wearing some silly socks. His comments also were very negative towards America in the beginning and I decided he wasn't the man to lead me anywhere. I wasn't going to bash the police as a monolithic entity and disrespect during the anthem. I believe that the idea of America is represented by our anthem and flag not to mention the soldiers that died. So to me he attacked the wrong icon. I also have several friends who are cops, DEA agents and Border Patrol. They will not be broad-brushed by me.
That being said, I read the book Serpico. I know the Police have much to answer for. But what or who should I attack or disrespect to see a law enforcement person whose life is in danger every time he or she goes out (they say we can't judge black people because we're not black; who gets to judge the cops if they are not a cop?) behave as Kaepernick demands in a perfect world? Sorry, I'm standing for the anthem and I don't feel proud of Kaepernick for exercising his rights though I'm proud the government (a right wing government at that) of the country he bashes allows him and others to freely protest as long as they are not harming others or destroying property.
But I'm not black. So maybe I'm hopelessly compromised.
Do you think the police union in Ferguson cares more now because of Kaepernick? Do you think the courts will change (meaning the law?) and lean more towards those on the wrong end of a policeman's gun because of Kaepernick? Do you think the cops will be less likely to shoot because of Kaepernick (or will they be less inclined to answer the call?)? Do you think cops believe Kaepernick has inflamed those who have murdered police officers in cold blood?
I don't know....
That being said, I read the book Serpico. I know the Police have much to answer for. But what or who should I attack or disrespect to see a law enforcement person whose life is in danger every time he or she goes out (they say we can't judge black people because we're not black; who gets to judge the cops if they are not a cop?) behave as Kaepernick demands in a perfect world? Sorry, I'm standing for the anthem and I don't feel proud of Kaepernick for exercising his rights though I'm proud the government (a right wing government at that) of the country he bashes allows him and others to freely protest as long as they are not harming others or destroying property.
But I'm not black. So maybe I'm hopelessly compromised.
Do you think the police union in Ferguson cares more now because of Kaepernick? Do you think the courts will change (meaning the law?) and lean more towards those on the wrong end of a policeman's gun because of Kaepernick? Do you think the cops will be less likely to shoot because of Kaepernick (or will they be less inclined to answer the call?)? Do you think cops believe Kaepernick has inflamed those who have murdered police officers in cold blood?
I don't know....
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Did seeing Kaepernick kneel make you want the issue to simply go away? Did Kaepernick (and Erik Reid, who is often forgotten because he's a DB, not a QB) help the topic transition from a fringe group protesting in inner cities to the forefront of a national audience with nations most viewed sport? What about the others that started kneeling in solidarity with him on other teams culminating in entire teams? If the answer is "yes" to those questions then it would seem to me that he was successful in his initial desire to bring attention to the topic(s).
I don't think Kaepernick is the best spokesperson. Guys like Doug Baldwin are much more eloquent on the topic but that may have to do with his Stanford education.
That is wishful thinking, but ignores reality. Kaepernick, like the BLM movement, has brought more bias upon blacks, and hurt his industry which will lead to lower salaries for his co-workers, 70% of whom are black, if it continues. The fans have much greater leverage than the players because they pay the bills, and viewership is dropping quickly.
But true. That’s more important.
What I don't understand is if NFL players want to protest something why they don't choose an issue that's significant enough to actually make a positive impact on society such as battered women's syndrome, animal abuse or the execution of christians in the middle east?
The reality is that even if they were protesting the number of white people killed by white police officers it would be more relevant than the number of black people killed by white officers.
The reality is that even if they were protesting the number of white people killed by white police officers it would be more relevant than the number of black people killed by white officers.
The protests have nothing to do with correcting alleged misdeeds by the police. They exist to blame others for the failures in the black community. It must be that society as a whole is responsible for the horrible educational results, crime rate, poverty, and single parent households in the black community. It just cannot be true that black culture and lack of personal responsibility are responsible because that would require blacks to admit fault and change. It would also require Democrats to admit their social programs and tendency to weaken criminal punishment are both failed policies, and reduce their ability to keep a solid portion of their voting base on the plantation to do their bidding.
Seeing Kaepernick kneel only made me think that Kaepernick was being a narcissist. He was the one who kissed his biceps and preened when all was well. Then when his career slid he suddenly decided to sit (later kneel). I just didn't take him seriously. I'm not making my comment retroactive. That's what I thought at the time.
I only want the issue to go away in the sense that a solution has been discovered but it's not that simple. We can talk about de facto versus de jour rights as someone posted earlier and I fully recognize that it's not the same for everyone. Rich black people can get away with murder (OJ). Poor black people can and do get railroaded. I believe any police officer who shoots someone in cold blood should be held accountable just as you or I would.
I've not witnessed any police interactions involving force with anyone. If a police officer is in a tense situation and believes someone has a gun and is refusing to follow their commands then I have accepted that what comes next is a product of the street. Black people say the police have a quick trigger finger. That may be true (I say MAY BE true because I don't like to make absolute statements of fact when I really don't know; everything is anecdotal which means I harbor a perception). The question is why? Because their lives don't matter? Because the cops are afraid of black people? Because cops are murderous racists?
I do not believe that Kaepernick, Reid and the other players transitioned the MESSAGE (versus a fringe group) of police brutality to the forefront. The only message I'm hearing now is an argument about free speech at work and arguments about patriotism.
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I had to Google Baldwin to find out about him. He is more eloquent, but it's a lot more than that. He's explicitly not anti-cop and not anti-American. From what I can tell, his main issue is deescalation and the de-militarization if the police, and he's actively seeking cooperation with law enforcement to find solutions. To the extent that police sold change, he's part of the solution. I don't see anything like that from Käpernick. I see a generalized "cops are racist and America is racist" mindset. It's much more of an attack on character than a real pursuit of solutions. I see a guy who has read too many Ta'Nehisi Coates books (or more likely, a guy who's dating and having sex with someone who has read too many Ta'Nehisi Coates books). Of course, none of that justifies Trump's injection into the issue or his move to polarize it.
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In what way were they a threat? I'm genuinely curious what you meant by that statement, given that I come from the perspective of a white guy who grew up about 10 miles from the Rio Grande, and my high school was 95% Hispanic.
Me too! I moved to Laredo in 1970. 7th - 12th...
Santa Rosa, NW corner of Cameron County.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
You'll get no argument from me that Kaep is a narcissist. If he alone sat (then kneeled) and didn't back up his protest through off-field actions I'd probably write him off as an attention seeker too. Of course, we know that Kaep and other protesters have taken significant actions off the field so that puts the protest in context.
It's not a simple solution for sure but how does pushing the protest out of our fan purview help achieve even moderate solutions?
I haven't witnessed it either. I'm also not black. There are numerous stories of wealthy black people getting pulled over for "driving while black" to ignore them. The data shows there is a very unequal justice system for minorities, most correlated to poverty but race is also a factor. Is some of this brought on by their own communities? Certainly but shouldn't that draw us into a discussion between local minority communities the law enforcement agencies that police them to see how they can work together better? Those conversation are happening now thanks to BLM and probably more influentially these NFL protests.
We'll have to agree to disagree on your first sentence. The last sentence is 100% attributable to our dear POTUS that saw a political opportunity to bastardize the issue that the players were protesting. The arsonist's results? The NFL isn't changing any rules and entire teams joined the protest.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
So you were the minority then? By the sounds of it the Caucasian population wasn't big enough to be a threat.
In the small Nebraska town that I lived in there was definitely an "other side of the tracks". Mexicans lived on one side, whites on the other. At one point in time I lived on the border. While in 6th grade, I'd be outside playing in my yard and a group of Mexicans walk by heading to their side of the town. I got the proverbial "what you looking at puta" claims and threats of getting beat down simply for being in my front yard. This happened a few more times before my single mother decided it was best to move further away from the Mexican part of town. On the flipside, I dated a half-Mexican girl whose father was a short-haul trucker and worked with my grandfather. One night over dinner my grandfather said "you know she's a wetback, right? Her father is Mexican." After picking up my jaw off the floor I acknowledged him and transitioned the conversation to a different topic. The co-worker of my grandfather was a "friend" but from the tone of his voice you could tell this old German man still felt the Mexicans were lower status in some way.
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