BBall Program Needs New Direction
- Thread starter Bevo1970
- Start date
I'm really not trying to just argue with you and I understand your point about seniors. My argument is whats going to happen next if we have a decent season next year? Go through five years with crappy teams while we hope to have another senior laden team?
Well that's what the whole thread comes down to really. Some are convinced that Barnes can no longer win. There are plenty of fair criticisms of Barnes. I actually agree that his coaching has cost us some games, especially the Iowa State game a week ago. Some in that camp however blame Barnes for everything and have some pretty BS criticisms. Barnes did not lose us the game yesterday, for example, plain and simple. If you cannot tell already, I do not disagree with every criticism or everyone on the anti Barnes side, just the ones that have BS reasons. Not talking about you Vol. It is perfectly fair to think Barnes can no longer get it done.
Others still think he can win big. I'm just in a position that he won last year, got derailed this year with injuries, and I will not be convinced he cannot win anymore unless I see him fail to win next year with a senior laden team. When I say this, I do not mean make the NCAAs, I mean sweet 16 or better. What I saw against Kansas yesterday was the team finally getting it back together to where they were before Taylor got injured (with Holmes being the exception). Unfortunately it is probably too late this year for it to matter. It may not be, because if the team plays like it did yesterday from here on out we can still win enough games to make the NCAAs. Im not betting on that happening though. Mostly because it seems like this team should quit at some point. So far, they quite surprisingly have not. I will agree I am expecting them to quit, but maybe they will not.
I am still convinced Barnes and this team can win big next year. I am willing to give him a one year mulligan based on what this team did a year ago and the injuries this season. Yesterday's game showed how important a full strength Taylor really was for this team. The mulligan is certainly not indefinite. If we cannot get the sweet 16 or better next year, injuries or not, I will be on board for a new direction. I am just convinced that switching the coach now, instead of after the 2015-16 when the 2016-17 will be a rebuilding year regardless of the coach, will cost us a potentially big season next year. If we win big next year, I would not expect 5 crappy years moving forward (though possibly one crappy year in 2016-17 regardless of coach). If he cannot win next year with a senior team he has built, I doubt there will be anyone left seeing any future success with Barnes.
Others still think he can win big. I'm just in a position that he won last year, got derailed this year with injuries, and I will not be convinced he cannot win anymore unless I see him fail to win next year with a senior laden team. When I say this, I do not mean make the NCAAs, I mean sweet 16 or better. What I saw against Kansas yesterday was the team finally getting it back together to where they were before Taylor got injured (with Holmes being the exception). Unfortunately it is probably too late this year for it to matter. It may not be, because if the team plays like it did yesterday from here on out we can still win enough games to make the NCAAs. Im not betting on that happening though. Mostly because it seems like this team should quit at some point. So far, they quite surprisingly have not. I will agree I am expecting them to quit, but maybe they will not.
I am still convinced Barnes and this team can win big next year. I am willing to give him a one year mulligan based on what this team did a year ago and the injuries this season. Yesterday's game showed how important a full strength Taylor really was for this team. The mulligan is certainly not indefinite. If we cannot get the sweet 16 or better next year, injuries or not, I will be on board for a new direction. I am just convinced that switching the coach now, instead of after the 2015-16 when the 2016-17 will be a rebuilding year regardless of the coach, will cost us a potentially big season next year. If we win big next year, I would not expect 5 crappy years moving forward (though possibly one crappy year in 2016-17 regardless of coach). If he cannot win next year with a senior team he has built, I doubt there will be anyone left seeing any future success with Barnes.
MobiusHorn
100+ Posts
Htown77, I appreciate your loyalty to this team and to Barnes. 4 or so years ago I defended Barnes on this board much as you are doing. But now I'm done. For some reason Barnes seems to do his best coaching with a group of underappreciated players with no expectations. His first year he grossly exceeded expectations and we placed first in the conference. Then last year when nobody expected anything the team played phenomenally and again exceeded expectations. But then lately when the team has high expectations and deep talent we have maddening losses and unexplained lapses (not just referencing this year). If Barnes gets another year, I will buy in again and support this team completely. But frankly I hope I don't have to do so. 
Chest Rockwell
1,000+ Posts
Htown77, I know you like to base your opinions on facts/stats so here's 1 for you. Texas is now 1-12 vs RPI Top 50 and 16-0 vs. teams outside of the Top 50. Big Game Barnes should be ready to pounce on that middle-of-the-pack NIT field!
Chest Rockwell
1,000+ Posts
Every team has injuries - it's just part of the game. I agree with you that Holmes has been in a funk outside of the 2 games he missed, but otherwise we're talking about 2 games by Felix and 10 (or so) by Taylor. I wouldn't exactly say we've been decimated by injuries and this team is deep enough that is should be able to overcome those we've had. I would also wager there have been plenty of other teams that have performed better with less injuries.
It's time to quit making excuses as to why this team has underperformed well beneath their expectations and own up to the fact that it starts at the top. Barnes, like Mack Brown, was a great hire and elevated the program to a higher standard. But unfortunately, the program is now heading in the wrong direction and desperately needs a rejuvenation. I think the best way to get that is to make a splash hire and go get a coach that is used to doing more with less.
It's time to quit making excuses as to why this team has underperformed well beneath their expectations and own up to the fact that it starts at the top. Barnes, like Mack Brown, was a great hire and elevated the program to a higher standard. But unfortunately, the program is now heading in the wrong direction and desperately needs a rejuvenation. I think the best way to get that is to make a splash hire and go get a coach that is used to doing more with less.
I was quick to point out that injuries were indeed a legitimate issue for the team a while back. But we have been healthy, with all hands on deck for the last 5 games and are 1-4 in that stretch. Injuries have not been a factor in the four game losing streak. I was really hoping that the ship would be righted after everyone returned from the injury list. But that clearly has not happened.
Tonight could be huge. If we win tonight and against KSU then we have some momentum going into the B12 tourney.
Tonight could be huge. If we win tonight and against KSU then we have some momentum going into the B12 tourney.
It takes time to reestablish team chemistry and get back to full strength. Taylor was basically sitting around doing nothing for month. It's fair to say it has taken him and the team until now to readjust.
A fair criticism of Barnes made somewhere on this or another thread is that his offensives rely way too much on dynamic guards. The Taylor injury was big time and sitting out for a month hurt our offense. The Kansas game was the first time I saw our offense (excluding Holmes, will get to that in a second) perform like they did before Taylor got hurt. While not as crucial, I would compare it to the Wacker injury in 81-82 that "disrupted the team's on-court chemistry and confidence and ultimately derailed the season." Dodds made the terrible decision to fire Abe Lemons and it ushered in the infamous Kaiser Bob era. I do not want to see us make the same mistake twice. This team finally seems to be getting its offensive chemistry back together. We are actually favored to win tonight by vegas (even I wouldn't bet on us winning). I guess we will see what happens, though as already stated by many it seems like the team is due to quit at some point soon, but we'll see. The percentages are always against a good hire in any sport. I do not want to fire a good coach, especially the only one that has proven he can take us to the final four since the 1940s, until I am sure he is no longer good.
As for Holmes, I will agree Barnes has mismanaged this. Holmes has not played well enough to deserve the minutes he has received the past month and it has cost us games. Unless Holmes gets it together, I absolutely agree we should have been seeing less Holmes and more Turner or someone else. Case in point, even though we lost, Kansas was our best performance to date and Holmes was not in the top 7 in minutes played on our team. Holmes limited minutes were due to foul trouble, not Barnes. Either Barnes has failed to recognize we have been without good play by Holmes this month, Barnes thinks Holmes can get it together and be the player he has been the previous 3 years (he is running out of time), or he is just playing him because he is a senior. For Holmes's sake and the fact he had been a good player up until this year/concussions, I hope he gets it back together.
Anyway, we are kind of repeating covered ground at this point. We'll see how the rest of the season plays out. Whatever happens, Patterson is supposed to be a basketball guy so I hope he makes the right call whether it is to keep or fire Barnes. If we do fire Barnes, Patterson has to have someone good lined up and with his background, he should (especially since I have not been impressed with the rocket man or any of his other ideas so far, so he better at least get basketball right).
A fair criticism of Barnes made somewhere on this or another thread is that his offensives rely way too much on dynamic guards. The Taylor injury was big time and sitting out for a month hurt our offense. The Kansas game was the first time I saw our offense (excluding Holmes, will get to that in a second) perform like they did before Taylor got hurt. While not as crucial, I would compare it to the Wacker injury in 81-82 that "disrupted the team's on-court chemistry and confidence and ultimately derailed the season." Dodds made the terrible decision to fire Abe Lemons and it ushered in the infamous Kaiser Bob era. I do not want to see us make the same mistake twice. This team finally seems to be getting its offensive chemistry back together. We are actually favored to win tonight by vegas (even I wouldn't bet on us winning). I guess we will see what happens, though as already stated by many it seems like the team is due to quit at some point soon, but we'll see. The percentages are always against a good hire in any sport. I do not want to fire a good coach, especially the only one that has proven he can take us to the final four since the 1940s, until I am sure he is no longer good.
As for Holmes, I will agree Barnes has mismanaged this. Holmes has not played well enough to deserve the minutes he has received the past month and it has cost us games. Unless Holmes gets it together, I absolutely agree we should have been seeing less Holmes and more Turner or someone else. Case in point, even though we lost, Kansas was our best performance to date and Holmes was not in the top 7 in minutes played on our team. Holmes limited minutes were due to foul trouble, not Barnes. Either Barnes has failed to recognize we have been without good play by Holmes this month, Barnes thinks Holmes can get it together and be the player he has been the previous 3 years (he is running out of time), or he is just playing him because he is a senior. For Holmes's sake and the fact he had been a good player up until this year/concussions, I hope he gets it back together.
Anyway, we are kind of repeating covered ground at this point. We'll see how the rest of the season plays out. Whatever happens, Patterson is supposed to be a basketball guy so I hope he makes the right call whether it is to keep or fire Barnes. If we do fire Barnes, Patterson has to have someone good lined up and with his background, he should (especially since I have not been impressed with the rocket man or any of his other ideas so far, so he better at least get basketball right).
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Barnes has not won for years. Texas has great resources in a state that produced 10% of the top 100 basketball recruits last year.
Barnes senior team might do well next year but a better coach will do at least as well. Will the next guy be better? Never a for sure thing, but I'm ready to take a chance. Barnes has been great for UT, but progress stopped 6 or 7 years ago.
We should expect the Texas coach to lead the team to a perennial sweet 16 level.
Barnes senior team might do well next year but a better coach will do at least as well. Will the next guy be better? Never a for sure thing, but I'm ready to take a chance. Barnes has been great for UT, but progress stopped 6 or 7 years ago.
We should expect the Texas coach to lead the team to a perennial sweet 16 level.
If the coach gets to the sweet 16 then what? I don't understand people putting so much stock in a single elimination tournament where anything can happen.
Sweet 16 is a commonly acknowledged measuring stick for NCAA Basketball teams. It means that your team is top 20. It is earned on the court in pressure situations. Some years you get a tough draw... so most fans who really follow NCAA basketball look at a multi-year performance by a coach. It is earned by performance against other teams, not voted on or measured by how many one-and -done players you put in the NBA.
I think the objection was really just the "perennial" statement and others not being clear on what you meant. If you mean sweet 16 generally every 2-3 years that's fair which I think you clarified with your last post. I had initially read your post to mean always in the sweet 16 and not accounting for rebuilding years, a bad draw, etc.
Also, I understand you do not like have NBA talent, but without it (no matter the coach) we really will never a realistic shot at anything more than elite 8. Yes you have to have coaching, but you have to have the players as well to ever win it all. Penders won here, but he never really recruited the players to do better than the elite 8. My point with Barnes was he was the first coach since Lemons to actually get us the players to have a shot at a title and it showed in three elite 8s and one final four. So, repeating myself, but if we get a replacement, he has to be able to recruit like Barnes or we can forget ever having a shot for a national title. It's fair to be upset with Barnes coaching, but I do not agree with throwing out his NBA talent like it's a bad thing. It's not a measuring stick of success, it is a measuring stick of the ability to get the first step towards winning a national title done.
(On a side note, since we've had lots of mack brown comparisons in this thread, there were a lot of texas fans who sure used no players being drafted last year to measure his ability. I bet a lot of Texas fans will use all the mack brown recruits that will get drafted this year as a positive measure of Charlie Strong despite the 6-7 performance. I am not throwing this out there as a criticism of brown or strong or a defense of rick or strong. This is just an observation. Also interesting that this never came up in the Augie debates because hardly anyone closely follows the MLB draft. Again, just a random observation here, not a point for either side.)
Also, I understand you do not like have NBA talent, but without it (no matter the coach) we really will never a realistic shot at anything more than elite 8. Yes you have to have coaching, but you have to have the players as well to ever win it all. Penders won here, but he never really recruited the players to do better than the elite 8. My point with Barnes was he was the first coach since Lemons to actually get us the players to have a shot at a title and it showed in three elite 8s and one final four. So, repeating myself, but if we get a replacement, he has to be able to recruit like Barnes or we can forget ever having a shot for a national title. It's fair to be upset with Barnes coaching, but I do not agree with throwing out his NBA talent like it's a bad thing. It's not a measuring stick of success, it is a measuring stick of the ability to get the first step towards winning a national title done.
(On a side note, since we've had lots of mack brown comparisons in this thread, there were a lot of texas fans who sure used no players being drafted last year to measure his ability. I bet a lot of Texas fans will use all the mack brown recruits that will get drafted this year as a positive measure of Charlie Strong despite the 6-7 performance. I am not throwing this out there as a criticism of brown or strong or a defense of rick or strong. This is just an observation. Also interesting that this never came up in the Augie debates because hardly anyone closely follows the MLB draft. Again, just a random observation here, not a point for either side.)
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How did you determine that I don't like NBA talent? I appreciate that Barnes has recruited more NBA level guys than any previous UT coach. I loved watching Durant then and now. But, I've read dozens of posts extolling all our guys in the NBA and that over looks that most did not win at UT like the NBA talent at Florida, Ohio State nor UCLA. (And, most of the guys who are in the NBA were truly disappointing during their stay at UT, and I'm not talking about Durant, Augustiine nor TJ)
Recruiting is a must for any top level coach. Winning with class is the ultimate measure of success not one-and-done guys in the NBA.
Barnes has plateaued. One more year or three we will still need to "face the music".
Recruiting is a must for any top level coach. Winning with class is the ultimate measure of success not one-and-done guys in the NBA.
Barnes has plateaued. One more year or three we will still need to "face the music".
txlandagent
500+ Posts
Tubby Smith
Horns11
10,000+ Posts
After that ISU debacle, I hate that I'm fully behind the OP now. I don't care if Barnes is the best we can do, I just need anything different to get rid of the scared, mistake - ridden ball we've been playing for 7 years. If that means throwing a lesser coach to the lions and going .500, then at least we can say we tried. Get that damn killer instinct back.
NJlonghorn
2,500+ Posts
Can we pay Strong a stipend to take over basketball duties for the NIT?
NJlonghorn
2,500+ Posts
In all seriousness, I'm not normally one to jump on a "fire the coach" bandwagon, but the time to make a change has come. While my head says we should keep Barnes to the end of the season, my heart and gut would prefer a pre-tourney change. That just may be the shot in the arm we need to make a run.
TXLonghorndad
100+ Posts
A coach is never going to be fired before the tournament - NCAA or NIT.
But with Holmes and Turner gone next season, and maybe Ridley and Taylor, is Coach Barnes the one to rebuild the team? The fans are going to be merciless with every loss. Best imo for Rick to retire and Patterson bring in a coach like Shaka who would shake up the program and recruiting.
If you think those comments are just about last night then clearly you haven't been watching the last seven years.
Chest Rockwell
1,000+ Posts
While there were plenty of players that contributed to this choke (Lammert's inbound, Taylor getting it over half-court, Felix shooting with 7+ seconds still on the clock . . .) this loss is all on Barnes. Rather than trusting his players, he took the air out of the ball and it cost him. I'll tip my cap to ISU for making some huge shots when it counted, but Barnes had a chance to make his statement to the selection committee last night and he **** the bed.
If we make it into the NCAA and Barnes gets us to the Sweet 16 he can keep his job. Otherwise . . . bye.
If we make it into the NCAA and Barnes gets us to the Sweet 16 he can keep his job. Otherwise . . . bye.
Actually, I have watched Horns' basketball for a multiple of 7 years.
For me, the answer to every performance judgment is not to "fire the coach," as appears to be the case with many on this forum and among the media. It does not benefit the program, especially recruiting, I then ask, do you want Steve Patterson picking coaches? Neither do I.
For me, the answer to every performance judgment is not to "fire the coach," as appears to be the case with many on this forum and among the media. It does not benefit the program, especially recruiting, I then ask, do you want Steve Patterson picking coaches? Neither do I.
I do really think, based on the weak bubble, the loss put us in the NCAA tournament. Normally we would be out, but this has to be one of the weakest ever bubble years. Neither I, nor anyone outside the committee, knows, but it would be a really shocker for us not to make it looking at the rest of the field this year.
That being said, this year's tournament results will be a must win for Barnes. My guess is we make the play in game. The play in game would be a must win for him, but really it seems like a game we would win. Remember, our play in opponent will be more on par with TCU, Tech, Kansas State than Iowa State, Kansas, or the top of the Big 12. After the play in game, we would play a higher seed and are chances are probably not great. We certainly have the ability to make the sweet 16, maybe even the elite 8, but the chances of it are low. I am still a Barnes supporter (as of today), but I am not expecting any wins beyond the play in game if that is where we end up. Just because I am not expecting wins, does not mean I am ready to call it. Most of us have been expecting this team to quit on the season and they never did (which is kind of something with all the painful losses). The probability of a sweet 16 may be not be high, but it is high enough that it would wisest to wait and see how the tournament plays out.
(If I had to bet, my bet would be we win the play in game easily. Actually pull off a first round upset giving us all hope. Play well in the round of 32 game before managing another heartbreaking loss in the last 10 minutes. Or maybe the heartbreaking loss will be in the first round. No matter what, it is going to end in a heartbreaking, last second loss.)
That being said, this year's tournament results will be a must win for Barnes. My guess is we make the play in game. The play in game would be a must win for him, but really it seems like a game we would win. Remember, our play in opponent will be more on par with TCU, Tech, Kansas State than Iowa State, Kansas, or the top of the Big 12. After the play in game, we would play a higher seed and are chances are probably not great. We certainly have the ability to make the sweet 16, maybe even the elite 8, but the chances of it are low. I am still a Barnes supporter (as of today), but I am not expecting any wins beyond the play in game if that is where we end up. Just because I am not expecting wins, does not mean I am ready to call it. Most of us have been expecting this team to quit on the season and they never did (which is kind of something with all the painful losses). The probability of a sweet 16 may be not be high, but it is high enough that it would wisest to wait and see how the tournament plays out.
(If I had to bet, my bet would be we win the play in game easily. Actually pull off a first round upset giving us all hope. Play well in the round of 32 game before managing another heartbreaking loss in the last 10 minutes. Or maybe the heartbreaking loss will be in the first round. No matter what, it is going to end in a heartbreaking, last second loss.)
Chest Rockwell
1,000+ Posts
Don't be so sure a change in coaching wouldn't also help recruiting. Rivals had Turner as the 2nd best player in Texas last year behind Emmanuel Mudiay, which keeps Barnes streak alive at 10 years in watching the #1 ranked player in the state go elsewhere. (L.Aldridge was the last one he got.) I love that he occasionally brings in players like Durant & Turner, but look at how little he accomplishes with them. In the Durant class alone, Barnes landed 5 players in the Top 100 (Rivals) + Matt Hill & Dexter Pittman. You think Shaka Smart or Jay Wright or someone else is going to lose a 1st round game with those players??
A new coach might recruit better, but it seems unlikely.
Rick Barnes has produced 17 NBA players at UT in 16 seasons. The NBA was founded in 1946. In the 51 seasons prior to Rick Barnes, UT produced 12 NBA players. Of those 12, only 3 players (LaSalle Thompson, Johnny Moore, and Slater Martin) played 4 or more seasons. Rick Barnes has so far had 9 players (Aldridge, Augustin, Durant, Ford, Evans, Gibson, Ivey, Mihm, Tucker) play 4 or more seasons! This does not include the players on our current team.
Recruiting Texas basketball might be easier now, but it is still difficult. Texas kids are aware that every school in this state has a lame environment and people mostly do not care about basketball. They want to go out of state to places like Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc that have fun and superior basketball environments. Maybe the next coach will be able to recruit as well as Barnes, but I certainly would not assume that. Recruits come here to play for Rick Barnes because they know he can get them to the NBA. They do not come here for Texas, or if any do, that number has been relatively small. The next coach would have to be someone recruits want to play for badly enough to forgo playing at places like Kentucky.
NBHorn7
Pimp Daddy
What people are responding to is seeing the same mistakes made again and again over the past several seasons. It's pretty much is a given that this team and others during this time period has had a low basketball IQ.
Why is this? Who is responsible and why can't it be improved? The whole arena and ISU was just waiting for Texas to make the mistakes to lose that game. When given the opportunity a good team like ISU takes advantage and wins.
Barnes said after the game that ISU is an outstanding team and we are an outstanding team. No, ISU is the only outstanding team between the two. Their season results reflects that, just like the Texas results reflects that they are not.
Why is this? Who is responsible and why can't it be improved? The whole arena and ISU was just waiting for Texas to make the mistakes to lose that game. When given the opportunity a good team like ISU takes advantage and wins.
Barnes said after the game that ISU is an outstanding team and we are an outstanding team. No, ISU is the only outstanding team between the two. Their season results reflects that, just like the Texas results reflects that they are not.
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