BBall Program Needs New Direction

[Htown77]

like winning the Conference (alone) for once

This is tough goal because we are in a conference with Kansas. Who other than Kansas has won the Big 12? It would be like Missouri criticizing Pinkel for not winning the Big 12 in football from 2000-2009 when he was having to compete against Texas and OU. We probably won't win the Big 12, no matter the coach, until Bill Self declines or leaves. That being said, we certainly should be more competitive than this season.

Kansas has won 13 Big 12 regular season titles. Barnes has the second most of any Big 12 coach at 3. One outright (1999) and two co-champions (2006 and 2008). Only 5 times has Kansas never had a share of the Big 12 title (1999 Texas, 2000 Iowa State, 2001 Iowa State, and 2004 Oklahoma State). No, I do NOT think it is at all fair to hold basketball to the same standard as football and baseball. You do not hold a program to that standard until they prove they can reach that standard. My point with Donovan is that even he does not stay competitive every year at a southern football first school in a state that has had a massive influx of people over the past 30 years.

If Rick Barnes had 2 National Championships to his name (like Billy Donovan), we're not having this discussion.

False, we fired Mack Brown. Also most were ready to fire Augie until the tournament last year. This Texas fan base would absolutely be ready to fire Barnes if he had two national titles 10 years ago and the same results the past 5 years.

but next year's team will be w/out Holmes and probably Turner.

Holmes has been more of a detriment than anything the past month (probably due to concussions). I actually think we are better without Holmes at this point (hate saying it because he has been one of my favorites and a great player up until the concussions). I personally do not think anyone, including Turner, looks NBA ready but I am not a scout and Turner is probably gone (but let's at least wait for it to happen).

And what difference does another year under Barnes make? Have you seen improvement in any one player this year other than Yancey the last couple of weeks??

Ridley improved from his December play. Holland has improved. I think if everyone stays healthy next year, the results would be better (though I do not know if they would be enough to save Barnes job or not, just he was hampered by injuries this year).

Despite a 6-7 season, didn't Charlie Strong just provide that to our football program?

This is worth of an entire thread but the game attendance certainly did not show it. I was at the games. Attendance looked low. HOWEVER, I will go ahead and see if I can find home attendance numbers and get back to you. I am just basing this on the eyeball test. Obviously home attendance numbers will be inflated for both the end of the mack brown era and the charlie strong era as I feel like a lot of people who buy tickets and do not show up are counted, but the UT numbers will be all we have to look at.

 

[Htown77]

I do agree with you that the program desperately needs an infusion of excitement..... Despite a 6-7 season, didn't Charlie Strong just provide that to our football program?

Maybe there was more buzz on internet forums for football, but it did not translate into attendance. I got the numbers from the box scores off of texassports.com.

2013
New Mexico State 99,623
Ole Miss 101,474
Kansas State 95,248
Kansas 97,105
Oklahoma State 99,739
Texas Tech 100,668

Average: 98,976

2014
North Texas 93,201
BYU 93,463
Baylor 93,727
Iowa State 92,017
West Virginia 95,714
TCU 96,496

Average: 94,103

I am not sure that a new coach would lead to better attendance. I truly believe the basketball attendance problems are more about pricing people out, giving students a terrible setup, and selling to corporations/businesses/local austin residents who do not care, just like having the tickets, and only show up for Kansas. When Barnes was winning (see 2010) we still had attendance problems because they are structural.

 

[caryhorn]

I am not sure that a new coach would lead to better attendance. I truly believe the basketball attendance problems are more about pricing people out, giving students a terrible setup, and selling to corporations/businesses/local austin residents who do not care, just like having the tickets, and only show up for Kansas.

I think you make a great point here.

 

[shaggy refuge]

Here's the problem. A decline of any sort is a bad sign in any sport.
bb has been declining for the last few years because the product and atmosphere suck. If FB doesn't pick up soon, the same will happen.
Baseball holds its own.

 

[Godz40acres]

I am not sure that a new coach would lead to better attendance. I truly believe the basketball attendance problems are more about pricing people out, giving students a terrible setup, and selling to corporations/businesses/local austin residents who do not care...

^^This.

 

[caryhorn]

Watching the replay of the Baylor-ISU game. The take aways for me are twofold: 1) ISU knows how to attack the zone with slashes to the hoop, dumps to the cutter, dishes to the open man for short to mid range jumpers, and lobs for easy dunks to a cutter at the hoop; and 2) Scott Drew at Baylor has recruited 3-4 dependable three point shooters that have the potential to keep them in any game--five guys in double figures tonight.

ISU's outside 3 point shooting went cold at the wrong time and BU's heated up big time the last seven minutes. The game was there for ISU, but BU's outside shooting was lights out.

When was the last time Texas had 3 guys who were good three point shooters (and rebounders, and decent ball handlers) on the floor at the same time. How does Drew find and recruit those guys??? I mean really, how does he do it?

 

[Chest Rockwell]

HTown77, you just seem to be more complacent over the state of the program than I am. I want more than what we currently have. I'm tired of watching Barnes get outcoached night after night and I'm sick of watching our opponent more ready to play (i.e. motivated) than we are. I have no idea why Barnes does some of the things he does, and ultimately I've just lost faith in him and the idea that our program is moving in the right direction. Despite the 6-7 record and the attendance woes, do you really think the football program was moving in a better direction the past few years under Mack than where we're currently headed under Strong? Mack will always be on the Mount Rushmore of UT Football coaches for me, but it was time for him to go.

As far as improvement from Ridley & Holland - you might want to compare the numbers. Other than a slightly higher assists/gm from Holland this year, they've both regressed in PPG and Rebounds/game. And I know Holmes has been in a funk lately, but I'd still take a 5th year out of him over 2 unproven Frosh. I'm tired of the "wait till next year" battle cry and I don't see any reason why we can't occasionally knock KU off their perch. We were expected to do it this year, but instead we're staring at an 8th place finish in a 10-team league.

Bottom line: I've been a Barnes supporter for a long-time, but I think he has taken this program as far as he can and it's time for a new direction.

 

[The Horn Identity]

Anybody that thinks Turner is coming back is delusional. The NBA drafts based on potential, not current playing ability. Turners upside is huge. He's a lottery pick, regardless of how Barnes chooses to use him.

 

[WorsterMan]

I have had no expectations that Holmes or Turner would return. Turner has been a huge disappointment this season like a bunch of the other players on this team.

This team had so much potential starting off. Upset UConn, lost a close one to UK, Taylor gets hurt and then it seemed the bus went over the cliff after that.

 

[caryhorn]

Anybody that thinks Turner is coming back is delusional. The NBA drafts based on potential, not current playing ability. Turners upside is huge. He's a lottery pick, regardless of how Barnes chooses to use him.

THI, I think you are correct. We should enjoy Turner the next two weeks, as much as that is possible anyway--depending on how the team does. He's in the NBA next year.

 

[Htown77]

Despite the 6-7 record and theattendance woes, do you really think the football program was moving in a better direction the past few years under Mack than where we're currently headed under Strong?

Let's not derail the thread. The only reason i brought up the attendance data was that a new coach does not equal better attendance.

Anyway, I cannot answer your question as neither of us knows what direction the football program is going. You need at least two seasons to see a direction or trend. I'll be happy to answer your question after this season.

 

[LikeMike]

We average over 10,000 fans per game with mediocre teams in a bad area.(where students are seated out of view) what do you expect?

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Htown, I asked you what you thought, not what you know. And if you start out a reply with "let's not derail the thread", then perhaps your response shouldn't be 100% outside of the topic of the thread.

I wasn't turning a basketball topic into a football one, I was merely pointing out the similarities of firing a coach that over his tenure has been successful but has sh*t the bed a few too many times over the past few years. To some extent, I wish I shared your commitment to mediocrity - it would minimize my frustration of watching this team.

 

[LonghornCatholic]

Interesting that we are having the same arguments here (pros and cons), that we had with Mack in football.
Not saying it's a bad thing, just very interesting.

 

[Htown77]

Htown, I asked you what you thought, not what you know. And if you start out a reply with "let's not derail the thread", then perhaps your response shouldn't be 100% outside of the topic of the thread.

I wasn't turning a basketball topic into a football one, I was merely pointing out the similarities of firing a coach that over his tenure has been successful but has sh*t the bed a few too many times over the past few years. To some extent, I wish I shared your commitment to mediocrity - it would minimize my frustration of watching this team.

I answered your question, out of respect, since I had been asked a direct question. I simply pointed out, I was not interested in having a football discussion. I am fact based, not feeling based, and can give you no answer until I have at least two seasons of data to work with as far as football. I will however have your football discussion you desire.

The conversation went as follows:
"I do agree with you that the program desperately needs an infusion of excitement..... Despite a 6-7 season, didn't Charlie Strong just provide that to our football program?"

Your point was that a new coach would infuse excitement. Attendance seems like the most reasonable metric of excitement. It is at least the best metric for those that care enough about a team to use their time and money to see a game. I was unsure about attendance. After research, I determined that on average, 4,000 less fans attended Texas games in Charlie Strong's first year. I stated that this was evidence that a new coach does not necessarily bring excitement, at least enough excitement to impact attendance.

You then asked me what direction I thought the football program was going in. I know you like feelings, but I try to evaluate facts. The facts of last season are we went 6-7, winning two fewer games than the year before. We suffered the worst home loss since 1997 to BYU. We suffered the worst thanksgiving loss since the 1940s. The four worst home losses in Texas history are by 63 to UCLA in 1997, 43 to Baylor in 1989, 38 to TCU in 2014 and 34 to BYU in 2014. Texas suffered its first shutout since 2004 to a team it beat the previous season by 10 points. For the first time in program history, Texas suffered 5 losses of 20 points or more in a single season. The last two games of the season were blowouts, and we were blown out by a 7-6 Arkansas team in a game where our offense recorded negative yardage on every drive in the second half until Arkansas put in its second string. That Arkansas team finished in last place in its division. 5 of the teams ahead of it in its division lost their bowl games. Our only wins of significance were against a 7-6 injury riddled Oklahoma State squad and a 7-6 West Virginia squad. Attendance dropped by an average of 4,000 fans.

While the facts show that the 2014 season was certainly worse than the 2013 season (we beat a sugar bowl champion OU team that finished in the top 10, were playing for a big 12 title the last week of the season, won 8 games, lost our bowl to a top 10 oregon team), there is not enough information about what direction the program is heading. I simply do not know. There are a lot of question marks on next years team. We could win anywhere from 2-10 games as far as I am concerned. The facts of 2014 were horrible, however, many successful coaches have had horrible first seasons. It could be a sign that serious rebuilding was needed or it could be a sign of bad coaching. We will not know until after this season. Will Swoopes start again? Will Heard start and be a good QB? I do not know. It has not even been spring practice. I cannot yet form an opinion. I feel nothing positive or negative yet as I simply do not have enough information.

Your response tells me that you feel that mack brown and rick barnes are the same. This a simplistic viewpoint. They coach different sports and the programs they coach are at different levels. Your comments about mediocrity tell me you are upset that I pointed out facts that refute your feelings that barnes has taken top 10 teams to nit before and indicate that your feelings that there was more excitement for football may also be inaccurate.

It makes sense, in general, that a person who prefers making judgments based on feelings and does not take time to think about all the facts and data, would assume that another individual is committed to mediocrity and not equally committed to success because the other has a more nuanced, fact based, and reasoned thought process.

Complacency can certainly be bad, but so can rash decisions. The key is to find a balance. DKR went 6-4 in 1965, 7-4 in 1966 and 6-4 in 1967. Firing him after 1967 would have been rash. Billy Donovan went to the NIT two consecutive seasons after winning a national title and then lost in the first round of the NCAAs the third season. Firing him after those three years would have been rash.

I am not for rash decision making. That is precisely why I refuse to make a rash call on the direction of the football program after one season. I will say that I intend to attend all of our homes football games and OU game (unlike the 4,000 that stopped going last year) like I usually do (despite the fact I am moving away from Austin and the games will no longer be close by) and I am sure the morning of each game I will be hopeful for and feeling a Texas football victory will happen like I always do.

Longhorncatholic,

Interesting that we are having the same arguments here (pros and cons), that we had with Mack in football.
Not saying it's a bad thing, just very interesting.

We had the same debate with Augie. Firing Augie after 2012 would have been the wrong call as he took us to the CWS in 2013. Not every situation is the same. Mack Brown, Augie Garrido and Rick Barnes are all different people in different situations. Just because one was done, does not mean that the rest are done. Thinking that way is illogical as the ability of Mack Brown has no effect on the ability of Garrido or Barnes.

 

[LonghornCatholic]

Mack Brown, Augie Garrido and Rick Barnes are all different people in different situations. Just because one was done, does not mean that the rest are done.

I agree with you; didn't realize I implied that.

 

[Htown77]

Catholic, sorry if I took an implication that was not meant to be there. I was responding to two posts in one. Maybe i was a bit rash in regards to your post .

 

[LonghornCatholic]

No problem, H, no problem.

 

[hornarama]

This is tough goal because we are in a conference with Kansas. Who other than Kansas has won the Big 12? It would be like Missouri criticizing Pinkel for not winning the Big 12 in football from 2000-2009 when he was having to compete against Texas and OU. We probably won't win the Big 12, no matter the coach, until Bill Self declines or leaves.
.

I call BS on this line of thinking. How did Baylor and TCU do in football last year? How did these schools perform like this in a conference with Texas and OU? These artificial limitations "being a football school" don't have the same relevance in an the modern era. Young kids often don't know a lot of history, they look at what has happened in the last few years. At a major university like Texas with a relatively unlimited budget, it takes a charismatic and effective coach to generate excitement and get the recruiting ball rolling. Great coaches outperform and attract talent and it feeds on itself. Art Briles at Baylor is case in point.

We pay top dollar to bureaucrats like our Athletic Director and staff to be able to find talent. They certainly have a lot of resources to back them up as well to entice top talent. This is Barnes 17th year....yes, he has accomplished a lot, but we've been mired in being barely a top 50(if that) program for too long. We are in the bottom half of our conference and until the tourney occurs and we see how the Big 12 schools do in the tourney we don't even know how much was due to good competition.

In last 7 years we will have one top 20 finish, so I don't get these extreme worries about doing worse. If we do worse it will be hardly noticeable. If we do worse, fire the coach and try again, and don't take 10 years making a decision. Its not just about actual record, but about the style as well. IMO, there is little excitement surrounding the program and many people have written off Barnes along with the program. Sometimes, you need change just to leave staleness behind and start with something fresh and potentially exciting.
-----
A lot of people are blaming a lot on the Holmes concussion, but he was already playing very poorly before the concussion. In the OU game he was shooting horribly, Yancey was smoking hot, but we had Holmes shooting the key 3 at the end? That is an example of brain dead coaching.

 

[caryhorn]

A lot of people are blaming a lot on the Holmes concussion, but he was already playing very poorly before the concussion. In the OU game he was shooting horribly,

I don't think there is any question that Holmes play deteriorated since his concussion. Everybody shot ****** in the first ou game. We scored below 50, right? Holmes showed a little life in the wvu game, before his ejection. Maybe he's getting back on track.

I agree with most of your post hornarama. Especially that we must not give up on getting a great BB program, and competing and beating the top team (s) in the B12. Including Kansas.

 

[Htown77]

Games like the Kansas game today are precisely why I am willing to give Barnes one more season. That is all.

 

[blonthang]

Been watching Horns BBall since Leon Black.

Sometimes we get good players, sometimes a (read --- 1) great one (usually who uses UT for his minor league experience then bolts for the bucks), but watching this game today --- face it, on average Texas does NOT have teams that are stocked with the caliber of players at KU, UK, Duke, etc. Texas may get good to very good players, but the elite get very good to outstanding players.

Doesn't mean Texas can't win. But KU is a better team and Texas took them to a near OT at Phogg.

Coaching can't be all THAT bad.

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

Games like the Kansas game today are precisely why I am willing to give Barnes one more season. That is all.

Great effort and I applaud the team for playing hard today. I'm not sure I'd give Barnes a career pass for keeping it close the game after Kansas lost to the worst team in the conference. However, I have hope that the Horns might have a spark and go on a run. We'll see in a couple days if they win or just have another close loss to a top 20 team.

 

[caryhorn]

Difference today in large part was free throws. Taylor, et. al., missed down the stretch and Kansas hit theirs. Another lead blown late in the game. That has happened often this season.

 

[Htown77]

Difference today in large part was free throws. Taylor, et. al., missed down the stretch and Kansas hit theirs. Another lead blown late in the game.

We had 3 free throw attempts in the second half. We made 2. Yes taylor missed one of the 3 attempts. However, Kansas had 19 free throw attempts in the second half and hit 15. It's difficult to hold a lead when you get 3 FTs in a half and the other team gets 19. It is also difficult to make free throws when you drive to the basket, you are fouled, and the refs do not call it. If we get even officiating in the second half, we win easily today.

Anyway, I did not give Barnes a career pass. I'm willing to give him one more shot with this team. Nearly everyone (except turner/holmes) should be back next year. I saw what he did with these guys two years ago and I'm willing to give him a one year pass on this injury filled season. If Taylor does not get injured (especially after how he played today) this season is completely different right now. If Barnes cannot do well next season, I will (and I think everyone will) be on board with a change. As I've already stated on this thread, next year would be the ideal time to make a switch as a lot of players would be leaving and a new coach could start building his team right away.

Saying I am for giving Barnes one last season with the team he has built to see what will happen without injuries is not the same thing as saying he should stay forever.

 

[caryhorn]

Yes taylor missed one of the 3 attempts.

Taylor missed the front end of a one and one. Had he made both it would have tied the game. Then we turn the ball over, are forced to foul and Kansas makes two. Two possession game and we lose.

It was a tough loss. That's four straight. With BU up next. Tough stretch.

 

[Htown77]

He was clearly fouled on the turnover.

 

[MobiusHorn]

Games like today are precisely why I gave up on Barnes two years ago and am now even more firmly convinced that it’s time for a new coach. I’ve been watching Texas basketball religiously since Abe Lemons and I’ve seen the overwhelming majority of the games coached by Barnes since he was hired. Late collapses at the end of games have become a hallmark of Barnes’ teams. The current team has too much talent for its mediocre conference record and its late 4 game losing streak here at the end of the season. And, losing late in the season when games are crucial is not uncommon under Barnes since he’s come to Texas.

Barnes has too much Bobby Knight in him (the bad parts of Knight) and it’s gotten worse as he’s gotten older. Make a mistake and you’re jerked from the game and usually berated by Barnes immediately after as you head to the bench. Best way to destroy confidence and make kids tentative at the end of games, afraid to make a mistake and not letting the game flow and play within that flow. I was a Barnes supporter for a long time recognizing his offensive coaching shortcomings and hoping that he’d become a better offensive coach. But, he’s gotten no better. And, his best Texas offensive teams have had an all star point guard driving the team. Hell, an all star point guard can pretty make any team flow offensively despite Barnes bad offensive coaching. And, how many times have you seen Barnes insert Ibeh this year when we were struggling offensively? Ibeh is a defensive player with very little offense in his game other than lob dunks. Yeah, pull out Turner and insert Ibeh when our offense is sputtering just to teach a lesson? Watching Barnes coach during games, I don’t wonder why Turner has been inconsistent offensively and hasn’t really developed offensively like expected.

I’m still done with Barnes and I hope that today’s loss and our likely failure to make the NCAA Tournament is the impetus for Barne’s termination. I think that he’s run his course and I refuse to believe that he’s the best Texas can do.

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

Saying I am for giving Barnes one last season with the team he has built to see what will happen without injuries is not the same thing as saying he should stay forever.

He's had a team he built the last seven years without a different result. There are a million excuses not to to be successful.

 

[hornarama]

I don't think there is any question that Holmes play deteriorated since his concussion. Everybody shot ****** in the first ou game. We scored below 50, right? Holmes showed a little life in the wvu game, before his ejection. Maybe he's getting back on track.

I agree with most of your post hornarama. Especially that we must not give up on getting a great BB program, and competing and beating the top team (s) in the B12. Including Kansas.

I was talking about the 2nd OU game recently which was one of the best we've played this year, and was criticizing Barnes choice to have Holmes in shooting a 3 at a game critical moment when he had been shooting so poorly while other players were hot. Unfortunately, Barnes just repeated that mistake last night against Kansas. As far as Holmes before the concussion, I think some have selective memory....Here are his stats for the games leading up to his concussion.
Holmes season game log:
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/gamelog/_/id/57406/jonathan-holmes


Mon 1/5 #16 OKLAHOMA
L 70-49 30 2-9 .222 0-6 .000 0-0 .000 6 0 1 0 3 1 4
Sat 1/10 OKLAHOMA ST
L 69-58 34 0-10 .000 0-5 .000 0-0 .000 6 1 4 0 2 0 0
Sat 1/17 #16 WEST VIRGINIA
W 77-50 31 2-6 .333 1-3 .333 11-12 .917 11 1 0 2 2 2 16
Mon 1/19 TCU
W 66-48 23 3-5 .600 0-0 .000 3-3 1.000 6 0 2 0 4 2 9
Sat 1/24 #11 KANSAS
L 75-62 30 5-9 .556 2-5 .400 2-2 1.000 3 1 0 0 2 0 14
Mon 1/26 #15 IOWA STATE
L 89-86 32 6-15 .400 3-7 .429 2-3 .667 10 0 2 1 3 2 17
Sat 1/31 #20 BAYLOR
L 83-60 27 8-16 .500 1-7 .143 0-0 .000 6 1 0 0 4 1 17
Wed 2/4 OKLAHOMA ST
L 65-63 (OT) 10 0-1 .000 0-0 .000 0-0 .000 1 0 1 0 2 0 0

That is 7 for 33 on 3's and 27 for 72 overall.

I don't know what happened to Holmes this season, maybe he has been suffering from other less publicized injuries, but he was already playing poorly (way below expectations) before the concussion.

----
I will say the Horns played better against KU last night, but before we get over excited by the moral victory (probably should have been an actual victory except for the refs), lets remember Kansas was 1 for 8 on 3's and they normally shoot 40% and they weren't missing open looks because of out defense they were just off. So, basically on a night when the other team was abnormally cold from 3 giving us golden opportunity to win we still lost. Also as far as the free throws, it was a known fact that we foul a lot and teams can score that way. The announcer was suggesting it as a strategy, and it is exactly what Self had his team do.

Also, I'm not so sure this is a very good KU team. I have a feeling they will not go too far in the tourney.