BBall Program Needs New Direction

Honest question: Were Martez Walker and Demarcus Croaker good 3-point shooters in high school? If so, that's what happened to your 3-point threat. If not, then what the heck have we been doing?
 
You make a good point, certainly you can blame Barnes for not having any consistent shooters on the team although Yancey has improved. I have to disagree on the offense, in my opinion it's not stagnant at all. They're running a continuity ball screen offense, almost every NBA, Ncaa men and womens team is running something similar. The funny thing is Smart runs the exact same offense because Billy Donovan runs it at Florida where he was an asst coach, so was coach Lanier which is why we are running it now.
 
Htown, You really think we can't have the same mediocre under performing team with a different coach?
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Mediocre = average. Since the average team has not made the tournament 15 of the last 16 season and 4 of the last 5, I do not feel the results have been mediocre. There are 351 basketball teams. If 68 teams make the tournament, that’s only 19% of all teams. Being in the top 19%, under the definition of mediocre, is not mediocre. So I would like to preemptively dispense with that word. Barnes results have been good, just not as good as we would all like recently. We want great to elite results, not just good. As I have already stated too many times and you acknowledged, I am not sure we can do better than generally good occasionally great or elite.

You might be right, but I have a hard time accepting that.
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That's perfectly fair. We all have our opinions but honestly none of us are really sure what the ceiling of our basketball program is. We know what it is in football and baseball. We will not know in basketball until someone wins a national title or we have a string of coaches after Barnes do worse or the same.

IF it is true what was said in the other thread that we are putting a new stadium south of the river... this whole discussion is pointless and we may as well give up on the program.

And what difference does it make how many guys like Durant, M.Turner, et al Barnes recruits if he can't get out of the 1st round?
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It makes a huge difference. See Barnes HAS gone to the final four once and elite 8 three times.

He has proven that if things fall into the right place, he has a shot to take them deep. You HAVE to recruit at least some superstars to have any shot of a national title. If you cannot recruit those super stars, you will be like Penders and never really have any shot of going beyond the elite 8. My problem is I am unsure many coaches can recruit superstars due to the way our basketball program is managed (what carryhorn and I discussed) and the fact that this state is not a basketball state. We are football first and I would argue baseball second. The Northeast, Midwest, East Coast are basketball first. The best talent plays basketball there. The best talent here does not. There is some basketball talent here now, but for a state our size, it is not anything like other parts of the country. We have to have a coach that can convince non Texans to come here like Barnes can. It is a hard sell for players to come across the country to a school that cares more about football and has lame atmosphere (again, see other discussion on athletic department fixing the atmosphere). Billy Donovan won national titles because he was able to recruit non Florida players to Florida (Joachim Noah was from New York City.) If you do not have elite talent, all the coaching in the world will only get you to the elite 8, MAYBE the final four if you get lucky. We have a coach that can get elite talent and has proven he can get to the final four. All you can ask is to have a coach that gives you shot.

Winning the NCAA tournament in basketball (though the same is true of other sports) involves a lot of luck. First, you have to not play a small school that gets hot for that one to two games in the first or second round (see Bucknell beating Kansas, Norfolk State beating Missouri, etc.) Second, related to the first, its all about who you play and when. Unfortunately in 2011, for example, we had to play an Arizona team in the second round that made the elite 8, beat 1 seed Duke, and barely lost the game to go to the final four. Texas and Arizona playing in the second round was terrible seeding. Third, you have to have 6 consecutive games where the refs are not terrible to you or call in our favor (See Texas-Xavier 2004 for bad refs against us). Fourth, true in all sports, generally cannot have injuries. You want a coach that has the talent to win it all if no bad luck events described above happen to you.

Finally, I attended the Iowa State basketball game and Minnesota baseball game yesterday. I will agree Barnes coaching mistakes cost us, especially the lineup before halftime, yesterday. Maybe Barnes does not have it anymore. On the other hand lots of coaches have bad streaks. Billy Donovan failed to win an NCAA tournament game 3 seasons in row. From 2008-2010, Florida only made the NCAA tournament once. This season will be the 5th time florida has not made the tournament under Donovan. DKR, in football went 6-4, 7-4, and 6-4 1965-1967 between national titles. Augie Garrido made the CWS in 2011, then failed to make the NCAA tournament in 2012 and 2013, then made the CWS again in 2013. People were making plenty of "Garrido has lost it" arguments a year ago. Since Barnes has proven he can make a final four, you just do not get rid of him willy-nilly. I would give one more year regardless of this year. Why? Besides the fact he is a proven commodity, our team has five juniors. I am unsure Myles Turner has played well enough to jump to the NBA (though I am certainly not an NBA scout). If we return everyone, we might as well give him one more shot with the team he has built and hope we do not have injuries like this year. Unless Holmes gets over his concussions, we will probably be better without him next year (hate saying that has Holmes has been one of my favorite players). A new coach would need to build his own team with his own recruits. Instead he would have to wait a year with Barnes's seniors before he could really recruit his own team. After next season the seniors would be gone and a new coach would be able to get started right away. We may as well maximize our chances for success next year and keep the person who built this team.... of course this is all assuming Patterson can get a coach at least as decent or preferably better than Barnes to come here.
 
Barnes is paid a top 10 salary,
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No he is not. He was the 11th highest paid coach this year.

Interesting note on the Iowa State coach Fred Holberg. Barnes is 5-5 against him including yesterday's loss. The Iowa State coach has never advanced past the sweet 16. Also, he just signed a contract extension with Iowa State that will work as follows:

2014-15: $2.2 million
2015-16: $2.3 million
2016-17: $2.4 million
2017-18: $2.5 million
2018-19: $2.6 million
2019-20: $2.7 million
2020-21: $2.8 million
2021-22: $2.9 million
2022-23: $3.0 million

I am not sure he would be the best replacement. We would have to pay him a lot (note Barnes makes $2.5 million) for a coach that has never done better than the sweet 16 and is 5-5 against Barnes when Barnes has been at his worst. I am also not sure that his live and die by the 3 offensive plan will ever get past the elite 8. I feel like Patterson could find someone better.
 
I agree Htown77, I'm excited to see what this team could do with Yancey playing the way he is and with the 2 guards we have coming in.
 
I also would not hire anyone associated with Gonzaga. I have an Austin acquaintance who worked as in NCAA compliance for Gonzaga basketball up until 2012. He is pretty open about how Gonzaga just cheats left and right to get players It makes sense, because why would talented basketball players want to go to Spokane, Washington? Anyway, according to him, his job was entirely to hide payments to players from the NCAA.

I know this is a complete anecdotal story to take for what is worth (may be worthless, may not), but it makes sense to me looking at Gonzaga. It's enough for me to say, let's not get anyone associated with them.
 
Why would anyone choose Gonzaga? Really? Believe it or not, talented hs athletes with solid college potential see themselves as athletes far above students. They've played and excelled at their chosen sport, and dreamed of stardom in it since childhood. It's what you identify yourself as, a player. As a recruit, you don't necessarily weigh a school or location as much as you place the most emphasis on the team you would be playing for. Sounds foolish to us adults now, but it's the predominant way the hs athlete thinks.

Good recruits choose Gonzaga because they are a wildly successful program that kicks the **** out of people on a regular basis. We only judge them from afar in regards to their place on the national scene. What you're missing is they dominate their conference consistently and win, win, win. Championships matter a ton to athletes, not just national titles. It's ridiculous if a player only judges his team's success and feels like a failure if not winning it all. In college basketball making the Final 4 is great success, even the Sweet 16 in some years.

But the point is Gonzaga constantly wins their conference and takes home conference championships. Not to mention almost every year they are solid national contenders. That's why they can get solid recruits without cheating, or not nearly as rampant as being insinuated here. That team has the ear and attention of high level recruits because they are incredibly successful almost every year and have excellent coaching. Location is still considered, but not nearly as much as the program and coaching.
 
If we go 18-11 and get into the Big Dance with a ten seed and get bounced in the 1st round; or wind up in the NIT and win a game or two, is that satisfactory? Actually, I would rather see the team competitive in the NIT, than get hammered in the NCAA.

The season got off to a great start. We had three serious injuries that blew up our rhythm, our rotation, and our identify. Our team leader, Jonathan Holmes, has been ravaged by a serious concussion. He has not been right this since. We would have more wins now if Holmes is the same player all year, i.e., not injured.

Its difficult to assess this team and Barnes' performance due to losing 3 key players for significant parts of the season. Now I know some posters will call ******** on my last sentence and call for Barnes to go. I understand that. But I honestly don't know if that would be fair. Obviously, I am a man of mixed mind about this.
 
That's why they can get solid recruits without cheating, or not nearly as rampant as being insinuated here.
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This is meaningless on an anonymous forum, but I am still going to believe that man that worked there for many year as opposed to your narrative. You could make that same post , insert Baylor instead of Gonzaga and I would still not buy that version of events. They've won, but they have not won like Duke or UCLA or North Caroline or Kentucky or Kansas, etc. I do not think ANY recruit cares about winning the west coast conference or whatever they are in.

Its difficult to assess this team and Barnes' performance due to losing 3 key players for significant parts of the season. Now I know some posters will call ******** on my last sentence and call for Barnes to go. I understand that. But I honestly don't know if that would be fair. Obviously, I am a man of mixed mind about this.
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This is a pretty fair assessment of where I think many of us are at. I am in a mixed place as well, even if I lean in favor of Barnes. The injuries are part of why I decided to lean towards one more year with this team (along with a new coach not being able to bring that many of his own recruits in with so many returning players anyway). He won with them last year, so i think he can still get them to win if no one gets hurt. The way our season is turning out, we may actually retain everyone even turner. If everyone comes back, everyone stays healthy, and Barnes does not get it done next year, I think the question about a new direction will have been definitively answered.

(On a side note: Football and basketball need to win again sooner rather than later, because this academic year the only forum that is a happy read so far is baseball and, as much as i love UT baseball, only one sport winning is not as fun as to what we have been used to since hornfans started.)
 
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Sorry, but I've lost my patience with Barnes. We have a lottery pick that he refuses to start or take advantage of at crucial parts of the game. We didn't get him the ball down the stretch of the OU game or the end of the first half of the ISU game. Worst yet, he wasn't even on the court for the last 2 minutes of the ISU game. Instead, he chose to play 3 players who had accounted for a sum total of 7 points ... Holmes (whose only basket was a break-away gimme), Felix (who was 0-9 at that point), and Connor (who I appreciate, but is simply not Miles).
 
What is the argument in support of Barnes remaining as head coach?

Seems that things have become somewhat predictable with this teams in recent years. What is there to get excited about anymore?
 
Personally, I think fans talk about coaching too often. I believe it's more about players. And next year we will have the best guard play offensively that we have had in a long time. That's what I'm excited about. You win with guard play.
 
The Horn Identity said:
Sorry, but I've lost my patience with Barnes. We have a lottery pick that he refuses to start or take advantage of at crucial parts of the game. We didn't get him the ball down the stretch of the OU game or the end of the first half of the ISU game. Worst yet, he wasn't even on the court for the last 2 minutes of the ISU game.
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I get your frustration. Turner was double teamed like a blanket down the stretch of the ISU game. They basically took him out of the game. Taylor driving to the hoop and Yancy (I think) 3 pointers kept the game interesting. I think Barnes is close to Holmes and is trying to get him P T hoping he comes back around. When Holmes is right he is the heart of the team. But he has not been right since his injury. No one is Miles, for sure. And he is definitely in his last weeks as a Horn player. Enjoy him while you can.
 
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The fickle vultures are out again. Like 2 years ago. Then, hero's welcome after last year and Myles recruiting.

This kind of thread hurts the program, esp. in recruiting.
 
Unless Taylor all of a sudden developed a consistent jump shot, I think he will be back.
 
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This thread hurts recruiting? Wow, I didn't know that I had such power. In that case let me sing Barnes' praises regardless of the on-court performance. And, like the Pied Piper, I will lead the best recruits to our door. :rolleyes1:
 
If Barnes cared to do what is best for the program, he would bite the bullet and resign. He has reached Mack Brown level, coasting on past accomplishments. It is time for him to go.

As far as who UT could get, I watch college basketball on TV and it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to think that Texas couldn't attract a quality coach from one of the high-performing mid-majors.
 
Barnes is awful. It's the same thing year in and year out. Start hot and then the team starts to tune Barnes out around January. By March we're limping in to the tournament and get beat early.

Barnes had some good years early on, but it's quite clear that he's lost whatever he had back then. And when you lose that, you don't get it back. He's done.
 
Texas can still make the NCAA tournament if we beat Kansas and Baylor, and win a couple in the Big 12 tournament, OR if we run the table and actually win the conference tournament. For the life of me I cannot understand why Barnes continues to sit Felix when Taylor is such a turnover machine. I'm fairly disappointed by Barne's inability to develop any offensive system that works with the backcourt limitations we have. The best offensive sets Barnes has utilized in the past 6 years (since Augustin left) have been JCovan Brown or Taylor going one-on-one. Barnes is a coach who needs an offensive coordinator. I think Texas goes in a new direction after this abortion season limps in.......
 
Since we all want to play coach, what offense would you suggest he play with the limitations we have in the backcourt?
 
GrandeNaranja said:
Barnes is awful. It's the same thing year in and year out. Start hot and then the team starts to tune Barnes out around January. By March we're limping in to the tournament and get beat early.

Barnes had some good years early on, but it's quite clear that he's lost whatever he had back then. And when you lose that, you don't get it back. He's done.
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Yep. Good summary. I see it the same way.
 
Texas can still make the NCAA tournament if we beat Kansas and Baylor, and win a couple in the Big 12 tournament, OR if we run the table and actually win the conference tournament.
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Yep, and I was only 4 numbers and a powerball away from $60mm the other night.

Barnes has once again taken a team from the Top 10 into the NIT. Bye.
 
Barnes has once again taken a team from the Top 10 into the NIT. Bye.
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Once again? When did that ever happen the first time?

I just want to clarify to make sure that your reasoning for wanting him fired, unlike many legitimate reasons stated in this thread, is not for him taking a top 10 team to the NIT AGAIN when we have never once played in the NIT under Rick Barnes. The only season we missed the NCAA tournament, we were never ranked in the AP poll at any point including preseason.
 
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After the last few weeks of sputtering I have no confidence this team beats KU or BU. They might win a game or two in the B12 tournament, but that's it. Unfortunately, in the end I don't think UT get's a invitation to the Big Dance. If they somehow do, Snek will owe me some good Mexican Food.
 
You're right, it wasn't the NIT it was the prestigious CBI we got bounced out of.

I was mistaken. I was combining that CBI year with the '09-'10 year where we went from a #1 ranking to 1-and-done in the tourney and lost 10/17 to close out the year. Not to be confused with the '10-'11 team when Barnes took a team with 3 future 1st rounders and 27 wins to the Round of 32 before being bounced (with only an impressive 4-point win over Oakland to show for it).

Did you know Barnes hasn't beaten a higher-seeded team in the tourney since '02??

Let me clarify why I think it's time to move in a different direction: he's taken us as far as he can. Outside of Kaiser Bob Weltlich, every coach we've hired since 1976 (yes, I know there's only been 4) has improved the program. Why do you think the next one won't do the same?
 
I do not know that we will not, BUT since the next step for improvement is a national title, chances are highly against us. It's doubtful we can get an established coach, so otherwise, we would just be playing the lottery with up and coming coaches. The vast majority of up and coming coaches in most sports do not pan out much less win a national title. Patterson is supposed to be a basektball guy so are chances should, theoretically at least, be better than under other ADs.

I would note that even top coaches like billy donavan have bad seasons. Hell he had 3 years without a ncaa tournament win including 2 NIT appearances in that stretch. My point being even the best have bad streaks.

My overall position is that I'd give barnes one last season (next year) with this team before entering the up and comer coaching lottery. However, if Patterson has an established, elite coach lined up, then I would agree with pulling the trigger this year.

Also, I am not sure how much further this program can go without changes in state/fan attitudes and drastic changed to the management of basketball at UT.
 
I don't see how one can watch our offense and not call it stagnant. I've noticed this for years. I watch Duke and see 3 or 4 plays moving, setting screens, and then I see us. Rarely will you catch two of our players setting screens, let alone 3. It's painful for me to watch.
 
If Rick Barnes had 2 National Championships to his name (like Billy Donovan), we're not having this discussion. And I think there's plenty of steps in between where we are and a NC - like winning the Conference (alone) for once, or just over-achieving more than once every 7-8 years.

You want to give Barnes one more chance "with this team", but next year's team will be w/out Holmes and probably Turner. And what difference does another year under Barnes make? Have you seen improvement in any one player this year other than Yancey the last couple of weeks??

I do agree with you that the program desperately needs an infusion of excitement. I'm not ready to accept you lower the bar just because you're a football-first school. You don't think a splash hire like Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens is a step in that direction? Despite a 6-7 season, didn't Charlie Strong just provide that to our football program?

I agree with LonghornCatholic - this team is painful to watch and dangerous to my long-term health.
 
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