Possibly but there is a direct line from the Greek city-states to the British empire.
3 Cheers for our good ally Israel! Est. 1200 BC
- Thread starter Chop
- Start date
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
No they weren't. That's the whole problem. The Palestinian Muslims, Jews, and Christians had been there for hundreds if not a thousand years before the Ashkenazim moved in.
If you want to claim that the Ashkenazim are descended from ancient Jews who lived in the land, fine. But that doesn't justify taking land by force from people who had lived on the land for generations. Some of the land was purchased from Ottoman Sheiks but much more wasn't.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
But only the history that proves Chop's point. All the other history needs to be ignored.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
The Romans didn't exile the Jews like the Babylonians. They destroyed the temple and killed a bunch of people.
They did those things, and they scattered the Jews. I don't know if it was done by law, edict, or military terror. But they scattered the Jews.
I think that's right and I basically subscribe to that. I think it's a classic Western Civilization hypothesis. Now the Greeks received a lot from the Egyptians, who in turn, received a lot from the Sumerians. The Sumerians is as far back as mainstream archaeology takes civilization--they started it, the Sumerians. Egypt took it from the Sumerians.
Now, I and many other sound-minded, non-kooky people out there (including many academics) believe there are almost certainly civilizations even older than the Sumerians. They either haven't been discovered, or little is known about them as of yet. This view was widely ridiculed by many academics. But then, a find was made and the site excavated in Turkey recently, showing a moderately-advanced civilization even older than Sumeria. And I don't think it was just some early Hittites. Also, a huge advanced city / fortress has recently been discovered in Indonesia which is much, much older than Sumerian civilization. People should keep an open mind.
One thing classical Western Civilization has wrong (in my opinion) is the classic view of the "Dark Ages." As it turns out, and contrary to what we learned in school, that time period wasn't so "Dark" after all. Science, literature, music, art, and architecture were flourishing--especially in the later centuries of the "Dark Ages." There were places in Europe during the "Dark Ages" that were even more advanced than their contemporary Islamic Golden Age neighbors.
Now the Renaissance really kicked it into overdrive, but the engine of progress was already moving during the later parts of the "Dark Ages."
This should be studied more.
So-called "Barbarians" from Scandinavia invented, and successfully sailed, the most advanced ships in the World. And they sailed them all the way to North America. It would not surprise me if the Carthaginians (Phoenicians) also made it to the Americas.
For those interested, Carthage comes from Tyre (now in Lebanon). Tyre (and its sister city Sidon) were Phoenician/Sea Peoples cities--similar to Gaza. And they were repeatedly lambasted in the Bible. I think the issues Jesus and the OT teachers had with Tyre are: (i) they would do slaving raids inland and capture Hebrew youth and women, then ship them off and sell them as slaves for $$$$$$$$$$$; that city got exceedingly rich off of the captured Hebrew slave trade, (ii) excessive opulence, (iii) worship of false "gods"/idols and influencing the Northern Israelite tribes to join them in such abominations, and (iv) child and other human sacrifice. Tyre is also the source of purple being the royal color throughout the West. The purple dye came from the oysters there off Tyre.
The legend/history I've heard is that a princess of Tyre was exiled with her family and followers (instead of being killed). They sailed to N. Africa and founded Carthage.
(And by the way Putin and Dugin (his Rasputin-like mystic priest) are obsessed with the Rome vs. Carthage history and cast Russia as Rome, and the US + UK as Carthage.)
The legend/history I've heard is that a princess of Tyre was exiled with her family and followers (instead of being killed). They sailed to N. Africa and founded Carthage.
(And by the way Putin and Dugin (his Rasputin-like mystic priest) are obsessed with the Rome vs. Carthage history and cast Russia as Rome, and the US + UK as Carthage.)
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
They didn't mass exile them from the land. Some left, but many if not most of the Jews stayed in the land. The one area that Jews were removed almost completely from was Jerusalem after Rome destroyed it and the temple. Some might have left other regions of Israel too, but nothing like an exile. Later, many of them did convert to Islam hundreds of years later though. Same ethnic people, different religion.
One of Israel's Presidents Yitzhak Ben-Zvi wrote about this history in a book called Our Population In The Country in 1929.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I completely concur. The Medeival Age was not Dark. I would argue that the Enlightenment was darker and it was the Enlightenment philosophers are disparagingly called the Medeival Age the Dark Age because while they rejected God the Medeivals didn't.
The Enlightenment gave us this Country and the philosophical underpinnings for a Representative Democracy without a King or Titled Nobility (the norm for that day and age).
The problem was that certain late Enlightenment thinking took it way too far and you ended up with bloody murderous things like Robbespierre, Villa/Carranza/Zapata, and the Russian Revolutionaries, each of whom ended up even more tyrannical than what they deposed. I think we (the US) took it to the right level--get rid of the King and the privilege of Titled Nobility, and put the power in the hands of the people (a core of Enlightenment thinking).
The Enlightenment fought against: the House of Bourbon (France), the House of Saxe-Coburg Gotha (England-N. America), the House of Hapsburg (much of Continental Europe), the House of Romanov (Russia).
The problem was not Enlightened thinking. The problem was, in some places (Russia, France), the wrong crowd took over after the revolution deposed the Monarchy.
What we did with the Enlightenment in the USA is allow for the freedom of religion with no established church -- understand, this was diametrically opposed to "Dark Ages" philosophy/Monarchism.
What France and Russia (and Mexico) did with it was an equal (at least) tyranny to what they overthrew. They killed, raped, tortured, and possibly martyred the priests, nuns, etc. We didn't do that in the USA. We (the USA) just said--you are free to do your thing and nobody can harm you for doing it--we'll even protect you and your right to worship God in any fashion you deem appropriate, but you cannot impose it on everyone else. Now that's an Enlightened viewpoint.
What France and Russia (and Mexico) did with it was an equal (at least) tyranny to what they overthrew. They killed, raped, tortured, and possibly martyred the priests, nuns, etc. We didn't do that in the USA. We (the USA) just said--you are free to do your thing and nobody can harm you for doing it--we'll even protect you and your right to worship God in any fashion you deem appropriate, but you cannot impose it on everyone else. Now that's an Enlightened viewpoint.
That's why I much prefer the Charles Carrolls* of the Catholic world over the those who want to force their religion on others.
*Dude had balls the size of grapefruit (speaking figuratively). He signed the Declaration of Independence real big and as "Charles Carroll of Carollton"--a big FU to the King--here's where I live jacka$$, come at me.
*Dude had balls the size of grapefruit (speaking figuratively). He signed the Declaration of Independence real big and as "Charles Carroll of Carollton"--a big FU to the King--here's where I live jacka$$, come at me.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
The problem with the Enlightenment is that they separated faith from reason intellectually and rejected faith. That is true of all of them. The US made it out okay because the founders still held onto Christianity. They followed Christians like Rutherford and Locke.
Republicanism is a recreation of a limited monarchy with a parliament and aristocracy. It was trying to recreate a Medeival system.
Hadrian had a lot of issues getting along with and compromising with Jews and ran them all out of Jerusalem.
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Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Jerusalem isn't all Israel.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Galilee was Jewish and largely retained its Jewish population
Didn’t the ancient Greeks get most from the Mycenaeans who got it from the Minoans? They ruled the Mediterranean for a long, long time..like 2500 BC to 1600 BC.
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Maybe so.
I think the Greeks took a lot from the Egyptians, who took a lot from the Sumerians--the earliest currently-known civilization (sort of).
I was under the impression that the Minoans were the root of western civilization. They did use or steal Egyptian ship tech. If fact Longhorns share a lot with the Minoans. Bull worshipping. I love their art. Too bad that volcanic eruption (1600 BC Santorini ) and ensuing tidal waves, weakened them so much that the Mycenaeans took over. Their artwork wasn’t nearly as impressive.Maybe so.
I think the Greeks took a lot from the Egyptians, who took a lot from the Sumerians--the earliest currently-known civilization (sort of).
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To be honest, a lot of this early history is in dispute (not as tidy as once believed).
I think that the artwork shows the links. The Minoan’s sport was like Rodeo..acrobatics involving bulls…they would use them like a moving pommel horse..do flips off of the back of the meanest bulls available. Maybe we can recreate that with Bevo? In honor of the OG creators of western civilization and make Old King Midas proud.
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At 68 I still think I can…if you’ll distract him..except the cool flip part. It might be my last act. But then you guys could well remember me. Death by Bevo on my stone.Interesting courageous idea Gly.
Are you volunteering?
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And the arrogance and small-mindedness of much of established academia enforcing their "orthodoxy" of thought was, and is, sickening. They would try to stifle, ridicule, and shut down, anyone who challenged their established views. They are the real anti-intellectuals.
They are the Priests of the Temples of Syrinx, spoke of in song by great bards of long ago (circa 1975).
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