3 Cheers for our good ally Israel! Est. 1200 BC

Every Western nation subscribes to the "acceptable losses" paradigm, and every Western nation Knows there will be civilian collateral damage. You moved the goal posts from your first post:
the Western world agrees ANY death is one too many.
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to the second:
Horn6721 said:
Who in the Western world applauds or celebrates or excuses murder of innocent women and children
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This is the only response you will get from me because I'm not going to engage you further on this.
 
Mr. Deez said:
You mean a terrorist organisation isn't trustworthy? What a shock.

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Yeah... No. The numbers everyone has used from the beginning is from the Palestinian Ministry Of Health. You can say, oh, they are controlled by Hamas. No one has questioned their accuracy until just this article. But then other news agencies followed up, which I have linked at the bottom.

If you read the NY Post article the main source questions the number because not all the people have been identified. Well, it is impossible to ID people when your hospitals and communications systems are destroyed. He even admits as much in the article.

David Adesnik, a senior fellow and director of research at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies who has been tracking the death toll data closely since Oct. 7, told Fox News Digital that while early on in the war the claim that Hamas’ figures could be accepted because in previous conflicts they were fairly accurate, the current chaos in the Palestinian enclave and the total collapse of the health system there has made counting the dead and verifying Hamas’ reports impossible.
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And even if the NYP report was accurate. That means roughly 20,000 people are still dead. Still an extremely horrible situation.

But other news media followed up. Here is what they found.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...ill-over-35-000-but-not-all-bodies-identified

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...-gaza-death-toll-figures-who-says-2024-05-14/
 
Monahorns said:
Yeah... No. The numbers everyone has used from the beginning is from the Palestinian Ministry Of Health. You can say, oh, they are controlled by Hamas. No one has questioned their accuracy until just this article. But then other news agencies followed up, which I have linked at the bottom.

If you read the NY Post article the main source questions the number because not all the people have been identified. Well, it is impossible to ID people when your hospitals and communications systems are destroyed. He even admits as much in the article.



And even if the NYP report was accurate. That means roughly 20,000 people are still dead. Still an extremely horrible situation.

But other news media followed up. Here is what they found.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...ill-over-35-000-but-not-all-bodies-identified

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...-gaza-death-toll-figures-who-says-2024-05-14/
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Giving Hamas the benefit of the doubt again.
 
Mr. Deez said:
Giving Hamas the benefit of the doubt again.
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I guess, to Mr. Deez every single news source other than the New York Post is giving Hamas the benefit of the doubt.

Here is the thing. The Post reported that the UN halved the death count. Not Hamas. The UN. The very next day, the UN clarified, "no we didn't halve the death count, we simply don't have names for everybody, because you know Gaza is a big crater right now."

It's really sad that Deez's response to the UN correcting the Post is that somehow I side with Hamas. It's even sadder that 2 of you liked his response reflexively because "anti-semitism bad!".

Even sadder that neoconservatives think that it is a huge gotcha if ~20,000 are bombed to death rather than ~40,000. I understand math it wouldn't be as bad. But it is still really awful. Plus there are untold 1000s that will never even be counted because they are buried under their apartment building. Plus all the people who though they are alive are seriously crippled for life. Then add all the people who remain relatively healthy but have lost absolutely every single possession they had. Those affected are in the 100s of 1000s and probably close to a million.

I give them the benefit of the doubt. The only people who should be given anything thought. I damn sure don't give Hamas any benefit of any kind, and I damn sure don't give the government of Israel any either.
 
Monahorns said:
I guess, to Mr. Deez every single news source other than the New York Post is giving Hamas the benefit of the doubt.

Here is the thing. The Post reported that the UN halved the death count. Not Hamas. The UN. The very next day, the UN clarified, "no we didn't halve the death count, we simply don't have names for everybody, because you know Gaza is a big crater right now."

It's really sad that Deez's response to the UN correcting the Post is that somehow I side with Hamas. It's even sadder that 2 of you liked his response reflexively because "anti-semitism bad!".

Even sadder that neoconservatives think that it is a huge gotcha if ~20,000 are bombed to death rather than ~40,000. I understand math it wouldn't be as bad. But it is still really awful. Plus there are untold 1000s that will never even be counted because they are buried under their apartment building. Plus all the people who though they are alive are seriously crippled for life. Then add all the people who remain relatively healthy but have lost absolutely every single possession they had. Those affected are in the 100s of 1000s and probably close to a million.

I give them the benefit of the doubt. The only people who should be given anything thought. I damn sure don't give Hamas any benefit of any kind, and I damn sure don't give the government of Israel any either.
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Do you side with them? No. Do you give them the benefit of the doubt? Yes. And I lament 20K dead too. I just blame the bad guys for it.
 
Mr. Deez said:
Actually NBC News and the UN routinely defer to Hamas and its surrogates as truthful.

There's a strange form of intersectionality for you. You despise and distrust NBC News and the UN. But they're higher on your hierarchy than Israel and its defenders.
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Mr. Deez said:
Actually NBC News and the UN routinely defer to Hamas and its surrogates as truthful.

There's a strange form of intersectionality for you. You despise and distrust NBC News and the UN. But they're higher on your hierarchy than Israel and its defenders.
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No no no. I don't really trust NBC. But what other data is there? All the data comes out of the Palestinian Health Service. No one else is doing any of the work of counting deaths. Absolutely no one. All the discussion is commentary on their numbers, including what Israel says. They can either agree with or question the numbers but none of it is built on independent analysis. I would prefer there be several independent data sources but that doesn't exist so we have to use what we got.

Who is defending Israel on this subject, the New York Post? Well, they aren't doing a very good job. They took a UN report (those horrible Hamas sympathizers) where they state they don't have names for all the dead in Gaza, and then claimed that the actual death toll was reduced. UN clarified that they did no such thing. The whole discussion is about what the UN was claiming.

If the New York Post has their own death count, then I am glad to use those over another. If the New York Post continues their critique of the numbers and explains in greater detail why the numbers are wrong, then I would be glad to hear them out. Currently, the most detailed explanation of the situation has come from the UN. So far the discussion is at that point below:

35,000 dead (UN) -> We have IDs for 18,000 dead (UN) -> Look the UN just reduced the death toll by 1/2, those dirty terrorists were lying (NY Post) -> No we never reduced the death count we simply don't have names for all due to the difficulty of doing so when the ID system has been crippled (UN) -> ??

If the NY Post digs deeper and shows some error or malpractice then good on them. The same goes for the state of Israel. I will go with the argument that is the most detailed, logical, and well evidenced.

Just looked at the NY Post website. Their response is that this just proves that the UN sides with Hamas. So no analysis. Just accusations. If the UN and the PHS are lying then you have to give evidence, not merely accuse of wrong doing. That's like the Left calling any white person a racist because of systemic racism. The racism is all made up just to silence conservatives. Similar tactic here.
 
Is anybody surprised by wartime lies and misinformation from partisan combatants? Is anybody surprised by New York Post lies and misinformation ?
 
The Times isn't a newspaper. It's a daily leftist Democrat indoctrination rag, precisely the opposite of what it proclaimed to be when it was introduced.


We shall be Conservative, in all cases where we think Conservatism essential to the public good;—and we shall be Radical in everything which may seem to us to require radical treatment and radical reform. We do not believe that everything in Society is either exactly right or exactly wrong;—what is good we desire to preserve and improve;—what is evil, to exterminate, or reform.

—New York Daily Times, 1st issue, 1851


The penny press papers, of which the NYT is the most famous, aimed to serve the broad middle and lower classes (they were, in a word, populist) instead of being high priced (1 cent vs 6 cents!!) publications which were controlled by a political party and were used specifically as a house organ to get that party's point of view out to elite, wealthy subscribers. Which of the two descriptions best describes the grossly slanted, expensive trash rag the NYT has become?
 
Last edited:
Crockett said:
Is anybody surprised by wartime lies and misinformation from partisan combatants? Is anybody surprised by New York Post lies and misinformation ?
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No. Propaganda shifts into the highest gear during war time. Every bad thing the government does to be honest. Speech censorship. Jailing dissidents. Conscription.

I think both sides are involved in it, but you have to look at the data you have and read arguments carefully to see which ones give the most specific level of detail. Propaganda many times is made up of narratives and crazy anecdotes that are engineered to stir up anger. Not to say abominations don't happen in war but corroboration and multiple eye witness accounts can help determine wheat from chaff.
 
Monahorns said:
No no no. I don't really trust NBC. But what other data is there? All the data comes out of the Palestinian Health Service. No one else is doing any of the work of counting deaths. Absolutely no one. All the discussion is commentary on their numbers, including what Israel says. They can either agree with or question the numbers but none of it is built on independent analysis. I would prefer there be several independent data sources but that doesn't exist so we have to use what we got.

Who is defending Israel on this subject, the New York Post? Well, they aren't doing a very good job. They took a UN report (those horrible Hamas sympathizers) where they state they don't have names for all the dead in Gaza, and then claimed that the actual death toll was reduced. UN clarified that they did no such thing. The whole discussion is about what the UN was claiming.

If the New York Post has their own death count, then I am glad to use those over another. If the New York Post continues their critique of the numbers and explains in greater detail why the numbers are wrong, then I would be glad to hear them out. Currently, the most detailed explanation of the situation has come from the UN. So far the discussion is at that point below:

35,000 dead (UN) -> We have IDs for 18,000 dead (UN) -> Look the UN just reduced the death toll by 1/2, those dirty terrorists were lying (NY Post) -> No we never reduced the death count we simply don't have names for all due to the difficulty of doing so when the ID system has been crippled (UN) -> ??

If the NY Post digs deeper and shows some error or malpractice then good on them. The same goes for the state of Israel. I will go with the argument that is the most detailed, logical, and well evidenced.

Just looked at the NY Post website. Their response is that this just proves that the UN sides with Hamas. So no analysis. Just accusations. If the UN and the PHS are lying then you have to give evidence, not merely accuse of wrong doing. That's like the Left calling any white person a racist because of systemic racism. The racism is all made up just to silence conservatives. Similar tactic here.
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I didn't call you a racist or even say you didn't make a valid point about the Post's numbers. What's revealing is to whom you give the benefit of the doubt. It's the same people every time.

And yes, the UN is very pro-Hamas and very anti-Israel. It has been for decades. Once Africa and Asia decolonised and a bunch of Islamic states joined the UN, it became a shitshow of hating Jews and Whitey in general.
 
Sangre Naranjada said:
The Times isn't a newspaper. It's a daily leftist Democrat indoctrination rag, precisely the opposite of what it proclaimed to be when it was introduced.


We shall be Conservative, in all cases where we think Conservatism essential to the public good;—and we shall be Radical in everything which may seem to us to require radical treatment and radical reform. We do not believe that everything in Society is either exactly right or exactly wrong;—what is good we desire to preserve and improve;—what is evil, to exterminate, or reform.

—New York Daily Times, 1st issue, 1851


The penny press papers, of which the NYT is the most famous, aimed to serve the broad middle and lower classes (they were, in a word, populist) instead of being high priced (1 cent vs 6 cents!!) publications which were controlled by a political party and were used specifically as a house organ to get that party's point of view out to elite, wealthy subscribers. Which of the two descriptions best describes the grossly slanted, expensive trash rag the NYT has become?
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I believe the Herald was geared more towards the Suburbanites and outer-Borough folks. But alas, it is no more. "Remember me from Herald Square!"
 
Mr. Deez said:
I didn't call you a racist
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I didn't mean to say you did. I am saying even the comment about giving Hamas the benefit of the doubt and other groups like them is itself a more subtle or softer way of doing the same thing.

Mr. Deez said:
And yes, the UN is very pro-Hamas and very anti-Israel. It has been for decades. Once Africa and Asia decolonised and a bunch of Islamic states joined the UN, it became a shitshow of hating Jews and Whitey in general.
Click to expand...

Each organization has enough things to dislike them about. I don't side with the UN regularly and have to hold my nose to use them as a source on this issue because they are dealing with the actual numbers. To me both organizations are staffed with rank Leftists who support woke ideology (if in different ways), Cultural Marxism, and totalitarianism.
 
When it first cam out, Borat was supposed to be a satire on Middle Easterners hatred of their neighbors, and especially hatred of the Jews. But now it looks like Sasha Baron Cohen* hit the nail on the head regarding how many of those folks actually think over there.

Now the Balkans, it must be some sort of Middle-Eastern outpost in Europe or something. Those crazy people all hate each other over there.


*Sasha Baron Cohen -- another funny Jewish comedian. Yeah, he'd be cancelled by these pro-Hamas types. If only he could get a disguise good enough to go into these campus protests. He's too recognizable now.
 
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