Why are the Democrats still afraid of Donald Trump?

[Mr. Deez]

Why would we spend time and money on enforcing immigration employment laws to catch people who are not legal to be employed? Why not stop them at the border and put pressure on Mexico to get its crap together and stop blaming us for being a **** hole country that people are fleeing?

It's not an either/or. You secure the border, pressure Mexico, and go after employers.

Why go after employers? Because it's easier to make an impact and because they're bigger villains - same reason going after a drug dealer makes a bigger impact than going after a lone dude smoking a joint at a Willie Nelson concert.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Deez
So How do you prosecute employers who hire illegals?
What are the "laws on the books" to do that? Explain what you would need to go after employers
IIRC Trump admin did raid several chicken and beef plants getting hundreds of illegals. Some of the plants were owned by Chinese and it was found out they accepted fake docs and looked the other way
Lib groups at the time were faux outraged

Do biz skirt the law and hire illegals. Absolutely. We also make it difficult to check if an illegal is applying . Not allowing an employer to ask for a SSN Until they have offered the job is really dumb
With these circumstances it is easier and more efficient to stop the illegals to get here un the first place. Plus there are millions more illegals draining our resources than are employed.
Stop them from entering, which Trump tried to do much more than others.

What laws are on the books? Well, they're written in the United States Code like the law against entering the US without authorization. Are you looking for the citation?

Frankly, you don't understand this issue very well. You think it's about a bunch of guys named Antonio, Juan, and Jose wanting to come into the US. It's not. Nobody gives a **** about them either way. It's about a bunch of white guys with money wanting to circumvent labor laws, tax laws, workers compensation laws, etc. If it was about the Mexicans, the problem would be easy to solve, because they have no power. There'd be no opposition to enforcement. However, billionaires throw money at politicians to keep the law from being enforced. That's why illegal immigration is hard to stop. It's ultimately about them. It's a rich, crooked white guy problem, not a broke-*** poor Mexican problem.

 

[Horn6721]

How condescending..
I understand the problem very well. Thank you.
Apparently you do not.
I asked you to explain how you would use the laws to go after an employer. What would you need to prove they had violated the laws.
Now you are saying the employers are "circumventing "the laws.
So which is it?
That Trump did not use existing laws to go after employers
Or the existing laws are not enforceable?

 

[Mr. Deez]

How condescending..
I understand the problem very well. Thank you.

If you don't think employers are driving the problem, then you don't understand the issue, and you're laughably naive. I don't care if you think that's condescending. It is true.

I asked you to explain how you would use the laws to go after an employer. What would you need to prove they had violated the laws.

Generally, you have to prove that the employer hired or retained someone it knew to be be an illegal immigrant. If you want specifics, see 8 USC § 1324a.

Now you are saying the employers are "circumventing "the laws.

To varying degrees, yes they are, especially tax, labor, and workers compensation.

That Trump did not use existing laws to go after employers
Or the existing laws are not enforceable?

The existing laws should be changed to get rid of the "I'm stupid" defense, but that doesn't make it unenforceable. For the most part, employers get away with it by nobody even trying, not by the laws being impossible to enforce. (And of course, the "I'm stupid" defense exists because the issue is driven by rich white guys with lobbyists.)

 

[Horn6721]

Where in my posts did You think you read that I don't consider employers are a huge part of the problem?
I questioned you saying Trump should have prosecuted employers using existing laws.and asked how that could be done.
You finally answered. The Govt has to prove the employer hired someone it knew was illegal.
And Deez how easy is that?
The existing laws make it too easy claim to the employer had every reason to believe the illegal was legal
I agree with you. The laws are a joke that exist to help business.
It is you blaming Trump for not doing something that is nearly impossible to do that I find disingenuous
There is a reason no other admins have done it either.

 

[OUBubba]

Why would we spend time and money on enforcing immigration employment laws to catch people who are not legal to be employed? Why not stop them at the border and put pressure on Mexico to get its crap together and stop blaming us for being a **** hole country that people are fleeing?

Do them both. Cut off the demand and the supply will dry up.

 

[mchammer]

 

[humahuma]

All I can say to the above is

Let’s go Brandon!!!

 

[huisache]

Why would we spend time and money on enforcing immigration employment laws to catch people who are not legal to be employed? Why not stop them at the border and put pressure on Mexico to get its crap together and stop blaming us for being a **** hole country that people are fleeing?

Because it is cheaper to get rid of the milk than to chase cats?

if you prosecute a couple of motel owners, a couple of construction companies and a couple of restaurants in Corpus Christi and put either a manager or owner in prison for 6 months all the rest of them are going to shed their aliens. They will have to pay more for their help but think of the money the government would not have to pay the illegals and their families as a result

the same statute used to prosecute alien smugglers covers employers

8 U S Code 1324

 

[Horn2RunAgain]

If you don't think employers are driving the problem, then you don't understand the issue, and you're laughably naive. I don't care if you think that's condescending. It is true.



Generally, you have to prove that the employer hired or retained someone it knew to be be an illegal immigrant. If you want specifics, see 8 USC § 1324a.



To varying degrees, yes they are, especially tax, labor, and workers compensation.



The existing laws should be changed to get rid of the "I'm stupid" defense, but that doesn't make it unenforceable. For the most part, employers get away with it by nobody even trying, not by the laws being impossible to enforce. (And of course, the "I'm stupid" defense exists because the issue is driven by rich white guys with lobbyists.)

Have you run a medium sized corporation or something ? HR depts have big issues here (from what some HR folks told me) in that illegals can obtain fake IDs and documentation easily. It would take a small team of private investigators to get to "the root of the problem ". Last company I worked for had to fire a buttload of current employees over a period of time because they found out they were illegals.

Not many mid sizes corps cheat willingly, in fact most go to great lengths to be lawful in the hiring process.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Where in my posts did You think you read that I don't consider employers are a huge part of the problem?
I questioned you saying Trump should have prosecuted employers using existing laws.and asked how that could be done.
You finally answered. The Govt has to prove the employer hired someone it knew was illegal.
And Deez how easy is that?
The existing laws make it too easy claim to the employer had every reason to believe the illegal was legal
I agree with you. The laws are a joke that exist to help business.
It is you blaming Trump for not doing something that is nearly impossible to do that I find disingenuous

It's not "nearly impossible" to do. Some fake documents look real. Many of them look very fake. I've handled hundreds of them. Most were very obviously fake - SS cards printed on regular paper or index cards, etc. It didn't matter though, because they weren't designed to fool the employer. They were designed to be copied and create a paper trail that everybody in the process knew to be fraudulent.

If we deemed every law with a knowing requirement to be "nearly impossible" to enforce, virtually nobody in prison would be there. I'm not saying every employer who hires an illegal alien would be busted if we tried harder. Sometimes guilty people don't get caught. However, there is no deterrence because we almost never even seriously look into it. We don't even try.

I read somewhere that we've only prosecuted more than 20 in a year twice since 1986. That is a friggin joke. I've personally had more employers than that admit it under oath, and I wasn't even trying to prove that. That's just stuff that fell into my lap. Here's how.

Juan gets hurt due to employer negligence. Juan sues employer who doesn't carry workers compensation insurance. Employer thinks it will help his defense if the jury knows Juan is illegal. So he says it during deposition.

Employer - "Juan is illegal."

Deez - "How do you know Juan is illegal?"

Employer - "He told me when I hired him."

Boom. Just proved the "impossible" without even trying. It's under oath (which isn't required to prosecute), and it's on file with a court. All it would take is a federal official who gave enough of a **** to look.

There is a reason no other admins have done it either.

Yes, there is. Democrats are looking at a future voting demographic in the children of the illegals, and Republicans are looking at the campaign contributions from slimy businesses.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Have you run a medium sized corporation or something ? HR depts have big issues here (from what some HR folks told me) in that illegals can obtain fake IDs and documentation easily. It would take a small team of private investigators to get to "the root of the problem ". Last company I worked for had to fire a buttload of current employees over a period of time because they found out they were illegals.

Not many mid sizes corps cheat willingly, in fact most go to great lengths to be lawful in the hiring process.

It's not usually the mid-sized companies that cheat. It's the small companies that cheat. However, plenty of mid-sized companies do cheat. They do go to great efforts - not to avoid hiring illegal aliens but to avoid there being a paper trail of them knowing that they hired illegal aliens.

Let an employee sue the mid-sized employer for something. That employer will know that employee is illegal faster than you can say, "where's our liability insurer's phone number." Why? Because they always knew that Mexican dude who only spoke Spanish, lived in a two-bedroom apartment with five other guys but had wife and 8 kids in Mexico, always cashed his paycheck rather than depositing it at a bank, and had a SS card that was printed on business card paper and had weird color shades was illegal.

 

[Horn6721]

Deez
If it is so easy why has the Gov't not prosecuted more at least as you mentioned since 1986? I know the answer
Which is to my point. You wanted to bash Trump for something NO Admin has done in over 30 years..Trump did do something about illegals entering our country.
Illegals including drug traffickers, cartel human smugglers rapists murderers and terrorists.
Many more dangerous than illegal employees
TDS is a sad thing .

 

[Mr. Deez]

Deez
If it is so easy why has the Gov't not prosecuted more at least as you mentioned since 1986? I know the answer
Which is to my point. You wanted to bash Trump for something NO Admin has done in over 30 years..Trump did do something about illegals entering our country.
Illegals including drug traffickers, cartel human smugglers rapists murderers and terrorists.
Many more dangerous than illegal employees
TDS is a sad thing .

I bash Trump for not doing it, but I bash them all for not doing it. It's a friggin disgrace. I do credit Trump for upping enforcement on the criminal elements of illegal immigration. However, that's a relatively small part of the broader illegal immigration problem, which is people entering and/or staying in the country, and that is almost entirely an employer enforcement problem.

 

[Horn6721]

Deez
Good for you to finally admit this. Perhaps you also bashed other admins. Good to hear
But I disagree with you when you say the damage done by drugs trafficking rape and murder is a relatively small part of the illegal immigration problem.
You are also right about many illegals just overstay
With illlegals ignoring OTAs and Biden not even issuing them to many flooding our border now the problem is getting worse

 

[Garmel]

Until the IRS cracks down on illegals stealing SSNs you can't put the burden on businesses to police illegals immigration.

75% of all illegal immigrants who are working have a fake Social Security number.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Deez
Good for you to finally admit this.

Admit what? You lump me in as a TDSer, but that has never been true. I've given him credit for plenty of things - the tax cuts, the regulatory relief, some facets of the Covid pandemic, some foreign policy matters, most of his judicial appointees, and some immigration matters. The difference between me and most of you all is that I can admit when he screws up.

But I disagree with you when you say the damage done by drugs trafficking rape and murder is a relatively small part of the illegal immigration problem.

I don't call it small because it's a small problem. The criminal element associated with illegal immigration (human smuggling, identity theft, drug smugging, sex trafficking, etc.) is a major problem, especially for states on or near the border. I call it relatively small, because the labor problem is so big - at least 14 million people. It's enough to suppress wages and undermine labor protections of US citizens. That's why Cesar Chavez was hostile to illegal immigration as were labor unions in general back when they had a spine.

With illlegals ignoring OTAs and Biden not even issuing them to many flooding our border now the problem is getting worse

No question about it.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Until the IRS cracks down on illegals stealing SSNs you can't put the burden on businesses to police illegals immigration.

75% of all illegal immigrants who are working have a fake Social Security number.

It's pretty hard to crack down on people that you don't know exist. I don't expect employers to be perfect, but when guys are showing up with SS cards that are very obviously fake, I do expect the employer to do the right thing. Many of them do not, and those employers should be fined, and if they keep it up, they should be thrown in the slammer.

 

[Horn6721]

Deez
We agree

 

[Garmel]

It's pretty hard to crack down on people that you don't know exist. I don't expect employers to be perfect, but when guys are showing up with SS cards that are very obviously fake, I do expect the employer to do the right thing. Many of them do not, and those employers should be fined, and if they keep it up, they should be thrown in the slammer.

The IRS knows about it. IRS Admits It Encourages Illegals To Steal Social Security Numbers For Taxes

 

[Mr. Deez]

Deez
We agree

And yet my balls feel busted. lol

 

[mb227]

Until the IRS cracks down on illegals stealing SSNs you can't put the burden on businesses to police illegals immigration.

75% of all illegal immigrants who are working have a fake Social Security number.

BUT, the government has ALREADY tasked private entities with enforcement of the unenforceable as we have seen in places like Commiefornia, where the counter attendant is tasked with enforcement of the vaccine mandates.

Of course, the business will be just as screwed when someone come in with falsified paperwork as is the employer who submitted the paperwork through e-Verify and gets told there was no problem.

The realistic solution to trying to stem the issue is to have a federal government quit waving OLE at the southern Border and then sending planeloads of illegals into the various parts of the nation to further make it a problem for the locals.

 

[Mr. Deez]

The IRS knows about it. IRS Admits It Encourages Illegals To Steal Social Security Numbers For Taxes

I don't deny that. Don't take my condemnation of employers who hire illegals as a defense of the IRS or any government agency. It is a shitshow on this issue (and almost surely under political pressure both from liberal interest groups and business groups). Also John Kostinen is probably the sleaziest and most partisan IRS commissioner in the history of the agency, so I'm not surprised that he'd be lax on this.

 

[mchammer]

 

[huisache]

entry level jobs in construction, tourism and restaurants hire the bulk of the newly arrived. Bust a few of the employers and watch the others fire their illegal aliens. They know who they are. Hint: the guy standing in front of you at the convenience store who can't speak English is here without papers.

I represent a fair number of the smugglers and get to talk to a lot of the aliens. They are real easy to figure out and the people who hire them know it. The poor immigrant from El Salvador doesn't speak Ingles like a high school kid from Odessa Permian or Westlake. The employers know who they are hiring and how much less they will work for.

 

[Garmel]

"They know who they are". Yeah, ok. Government incompetence basically lets them get here but it's our businesses' responsibility to take care of it and do the government's job for them. Sure.

 

[Seattle Husker]

"They know who they are". Yeah, ok. Government incompetence basically lets them get here but it's our businesses' responsibility to take care of it and do the government's job for them. Sure.

It's Business' job to ensure the "demand" isn't present. E-Verify is available for all businesses to use. The tools are there if the business desire is there. This is the reason you do not see illegals working @ Starbucks, Home Depot and other large corporations.

 

[mb227]

This is the reason you do not see illegals working @ Starbucks, Home Depot and other large corporations.

And...yet...we do. Won't speak much to $tarbux since I don't buy overpriced crappy coffee but I guarantee you I could go into any big box store and find at least a dozen 'gainfully employed' illegal aliens on the clock. And I would challenge people to go into many fast food restaurants in the urban environs and find someone cooking who spoke english as a native language... one of the joys on road trips is finding rural areas where it is actually local kids working because they tend to give a damn about the work and the product IS discernibly better.

 

[Garmel]

I don't support illegal hiring. I could see stronger actions against companies who hire illegals if the feds were actually doing their job. However, expecting businesses to do the government's job for them is crapoloa. I can see why the law is not enforced.

 

[Seattle Husker]

And...yet...we do. Won't speak much to $tarbux since I don't buy overpriced crappy coffee but I guarantee you I could go into any big box store and find at least a dozen 'gainfully employed' illegal aliens on the clock. And I would challenge people to go into many fast food restaurants in the urban environs and find someone cooking who spoke english as a native language... one of the joys on road trips is finding rural areas where it is actually local kids working because they tend to give a damn about the work and the product IS discernibly better.

I can't speak for other "big box retailers" but Home Depot is a vociferous user of e-verify based on my peer conversations with the owner of the process there. The point is, there are tools available to verify the immigration status of your employees should an employer choose to do so. For those with government contracts they typically are required to do so. For others it's a choice.

My father used to work for a cabinet manufacturer in the Dallas area. INS would visit them at least once per quarter. On the day that INS visited the manufacturing floor would have ~1/3rd it's normal workers. Why? Someone was alerting them the day before that INS would be there that day thus many would flee. He was in Accounting so he wasn't privy to who was alerting them. At least half of those that disappeared would show up working again within weeks, only this time they'd have a different name. That company could have used e-verify but that would have verified that the cheap labor they were leveraging to support their business model was illegal. Rather, they simply played a game with INS. I suspect INS was in on it too or they wouldn't have planned visits alerting the company.