What if it was not the Russians?

Seattle Husker said:
Without a doubt we meddled in Ukrainian politics to push out a Russian puppet in favor of our own. If that's the "foolishness" DJT is referring to then he's also lost all sense of proportionality.
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So say we stayed completely out of it: Would there have been a rebel uprising had a Russian puppet government remained? Would the airplane have been shot down? Would Crimea have been annexed? That's quite a bit history right there in that region.
 
Htown77 said:
Today, Paul Ryan said “that there is no question Russia interfered and continues to undermine democracy around the world.”

Musberger sounds more and more right with these quotes. Russia is trying to undermine democracy around the world? Really?

In Syria they are supporting their ally against terrorist groups. The pro democracy groups have been a small minority with no chance of obtaining enough popular support to run the country the entire civil war so far. I would like the pro democracy groups to win as well, but it is wishful thinking.

In the Ukraine Russia responded to an undemocratic pro-EU coup on their border.

Where “around the world” is Russia trying to undermine democracy?

I have had it with irresponsible US politicians trying to recreate the cold war. Communism in Russia is dead. The Cold War ended nearly 30 years ago. Putin is 65. His KGB associates wont be around much longer. Russia is a shell of its former self. There is no reason to recreate the Cold War or the specter of nuclear war. Enough is enough.
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The problem is this: their war-heads (which basically say, "What are you going to do about it" if they cause mischief), their national pride, their weak economy (which I believe fosters imperialism) and their general level of paranoia.
 
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Htown77 said:
Communism in Russia is dead.
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It is but Authoritarianism is not. I believe Putin has a desire to restore Russia to it's previous Cold War status of a world power. Russia has been fingered in interfering in elections in the US, bankrolled La Pen and now evidence is starting to emerge that they were meeting with Brexit organizers. In hindsight, their influence in our politics is nearly reflected daily is some posts on this sight.
 
DJT had this to say in his joint press conference with Putin when the question of Russia's interference in our election arose:

“He just said it’s not Russia,” repeating Putin’s denials of involvement in the U.S. election. “I will say this, I don’t see any reason why it would be.”
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Also from this article. Putin stated that he wanted DJT to win due to his desire to "normalize relations".
 
Phil Elliott said:
Yes I read the statement. I don't see how you don't understand negotiating and diplomacy. He has to publicly show support for Russia. He can't get anything done by blasting the guy standing next to him.
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Of course, I'm a negotiator by profession, and I've never heard of anyone blaming the dispute at issue on one's client's foolishness. That is a bit unorthodox of a negotiation tactic (to put it generously).

Phil Elliott said:
At least he didn't say, off the record, I will have more latitude after the next election.
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Yep, that was a disgrace. Irrelevant to Trump's slip-up, but it was a disgrace.
 
He's buttering up to a dictator to get what he wants. Nothing more, nothing less. He did it with Kim and he's doing it with Putin. Dressing down Putin would have accomplished absolutely nothing. If you want to get all self-righteous maybe we should tell the EU off because they screw us on trade and spy on us. Yes, the EU countries spy on us and we do the same to them.
 
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Garmel said:
He's buttering up to a dictator to get what he wants. Nothing more, nothing less. He did it with Kim and he's doing it with Putin. Dressing down Putin would have accomplished absolutely nothing. If you want to get all self-righteous maybe we should tell the EU off because they screw us on trade and spy on us. Yes, the EU countries spy on us and we do the same to them.
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Saying nice things to Putin is defensible. Blaming your own country is not, especially if you had a problem with Obama doing something similar (though in a more understated manner). Reagan said nice things to Gorbachev, but he also read him the Riot Act when he needed to. And he sure as hell didn't call his own country foolish.
 
Mr. Deez said:
Saying nice things to Putin is defensible. Blaming your own country is not, especially if you had a problem with Obama doing something similar (though in a more understated manner). Reagan said nice things to Gorbachev, but he also read him the Riot Act when he needed to. And he sure as hell didn't call his own country foolish.
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Regean: "Mr. Gorbachev. Tear down this wall!"

DJT: “He just said it’s not Russia....I will say this, I don’t see any reason why it would be.”

The latter said while his entire Admnistration is saying "It was Russia. The danger is still prevalent."
 
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Seattle Husker said:
Regean: "Mr. Gorbachev. Tear down this wall!"

DJT: “He just said it’s not Russia....I will say this, I don’t see any reason why it would be.”
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Just imagine Reagan saying: "They say they only built the wall to keep fascists out of Berlin, and I don't see any reason why that wouldn't be.

Besides, it's a big, beautiful wall. Nobody builds walls like the East Germans. Nobody."
 
Mr. Deez said:
Saying nice things to Putin is defensible. Blaming your own country is not, especially if you had a problem with Obama doing something similar (though in a more understated manner). Reagan said nice things to Gorbachev, but he also read him the Riot Act when he needed to. And he sure as hell didn't call his own country foolish.
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A lot of stuff we've done has been foolish. We're still blaming the Russians for the DNC hack and we still haven't had a neutral party look at the server. It could be the Russians but it also could be China. Hell, it could be anybody.
 
When you say Trump blamed his country, I have to disagree with that assessment. Trump is flatly saying policy mistakes were made by the criminals (my words, not Trump’s) within the Obama administration and the deep state - unelected at that - who imposed their will contrary to what the majority in the country want. When people like Brennan, Comey, Clapper, Obama, Hillary, and the like implement policy I disagree with or believe is illegal, and I say it’s wrong, I’m not blaming America when I criticize the actions which were taken.

I may state that the CIA and the NSA are corrupt. Most likely the majority of these agencies are composed of patriotic Americans wanting to serve their country and follow orders they believe are lawful. But when the directors and managers are corrupt, it follows that the agency will be viewed as untrustworthy and worse. That’s what is happening here. Trump is placed int the position of being expected to back up these agencies charged with protecting America, while simultaneously knowing they’ve become cesspools managed by people wanting to see him destroyed. These people who “made mistakes” aren’t “America” any more than any one of us is “America.”
 
Mr. Deez said:
Obama would have completely agreed with you when it came to Muslim countries. And he would have been just as right (or just as wrong).
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We haven't been angels in the Middle East. My problem is apologizing for stuff that happened before we were born. Anyway, you sidestepped my comment about Obama unnecessarily creating hostilities. We don't need to do that kind of crap. Russia is a bad actor but let's not blame them for stuff they might not have done. Musburger above has it right. If you look at the FBI's current corruption, NSA lying about spying on us, and CIA being wrong (or lied) about WMDs do we really want to trust their word as law? Do you want them damaging a possible relationship with Russia? I' m not quoting Russian propaganda. These are known facts. Perhaps Trump was too soft. However, we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. Remember, Trump was nice to PM May in the open but hard on her in private.
 
OP, US is prepared to prove it was the Russians in an American courtroom. Thanks for the Zero Hedge link. Browse the indictment of the dozen GRU and tell me it wasn't the Russians.

Respectfully.
 
This is Trump dumping on the US IC again, who he rightly thinks has been out to get him from the start. Other than these comments that drive people like Brennan to foam at the mouth, his policies have been tough against Russia.
 
The notion that Trump is soft on Russia or that he is Putin's puppet is absurd. Trump has not given an inch on Iran, has increased troop levels in Afghanistan, and continues to squeeze Venezuela (which has done nothing to the United States). He has increased sanctions on Russia since taking office and expelled diplomats, all on unproven allegations. If Trump is a puppet of anybody, one should look at the Israelis or the Saudis.
 
I find it funny how not one Trump hater can answer the question why the FBI was not allowed access to the DNC server. Not one!
 
I want to note that if Trump actually believes Putin he's in the wrong. Putin's ability to lie is amazing. Putin sits there and lies straight to Chris Wallace's face about his missile simulation that he showed last spring does not show missiles attacking Florida even though it's clear as hell it is.
 
OUBubba said:
They found a witch. With ties to the NRA and likely DJT Jr. and another un-named US Citizen. This is going to leave a mark.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...mueller-collusion-investigation-a8450296.html
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interesting how you pulled DJT, Jr. out of thin air for your baseless accusation. If being introduced to someone at the NRA and knowing "US Person 1" to help Trump get elected is a crime, half of all Americans are guilty. Seriously, do you think the great Russian spy Butt-in-ski flipped the NRA from Hillary to The Donald? The whole story is just dumb. The only mark it leaves is on your underwear.
 
Other than these comments that drive people like Brennan to foam at the mouth, his policies have been tough against Russia.
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The notion that Trump is soft on Russia or that he is Putin's puppet is absurd. Trump has not given an inch on Iran, has increased troop levels in Afghanistan, and continues to squeeze Venezuela (which has done nothing to the United States). He has increased sanctions on Russia since taking office and expelled diplomats, all on unproven allegations.
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That's what's hilarious/sad to me: the same people who call him Putin's lapdog now were recently saying he was needlessly antagonizing Putin a few months ago. And before that they were saying he's in bed with Russia. And before that they were saying he's doing stupid stuff to spite Russia. If you're gonna pick 2 big criticisms of Trump regarding Russia, why not at least make a token attempt to not make them complete polar opposite contradictions of each other?

This whole issue is doing a great job of separating the reasonable anti-Trump crowd and the unreasonable anti-Trump crowd. The latter are the ones summarily declaring that he committed treason even by having a meeting with Putin in the first place - and they sincerely believe this is the case, too.
 
One of the reasons people wanted Trump was that he would look at things as someone outside the political arena. And in a lot of cases, that's good. This case is not one of them.

He's been pretty consistent on this score, when he goes into these "developmental relationship meetings" or whatever you want to call them. It's all about "do we like each other" and "we have a great relationship." He's more concerned with building a groundwork work deals than he is posturing and scoring points - which is odd because he's all about posturing in other contexts. I think it's because in his heart, the thing he loves most is the deal-making process. And he's not about to screw that up by saying something bad about someone and painting himself as an adversary or an "enemy."

It would be interesting to see how much Trump actually believes of what he said. But it doesn't surprise me because he's used the same types of language with everyone he's met with. He did call out Germany for buying Russian oil - kinda weird thing for a Russian mole to do, right? And he certainly has had strong words to say for his allies at times. But that's deal-making. You can take stronger stands against people when you have a stronger relationship and have mutual commitment to a common interest. In Trump's eyes, this is just another board meeting, and the guy on the other side is a competitor that wants to make a good deal for his business/country. You don't go into a business deal treating the other person as an "enemy" - and so he doesn't.

So I actually understand why he's doing it, and no, it's not because he's on the Russian dole. That doesn't mean I don't find it stomach-turning to talk about Putin as anything other than what he is. The reality is that in actual political deals, you can't just ignore that one side is trying to undermine the safety, sovereignty and security of your nation. I didn't like it when Obama did it, and I don't like it when Trump does it. HOWEVER... the difference so far is that I haven't seen any of Trump's actual policies reflect this. Obama was completely different - because he ideologically BELIEVED that the U.S. was responsible for all the bad stuff, and his decisions and actions reflected that.

So the treason talk is just stupid and ridiculous posturing.
 
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