This is America, speak English
- Thread starter Ramathorn
- Start date
What language did the Dutch immigrants who settled New Amersterdam learn?
What language did the hordes of Germans in their two great immigrations periods learn?
What language did the Chinese immigrants who built our western railroads learn?
What language did the Italians without papers learn?
What language did our Japanese immigrants who were put into Japanese internment camps during WWII learn?
I think that learning English is part of being in America. I know that learning Spanish is part of me being in Buenos Aires.
What language did the hordes of Germans in their two great immigrations periods learn?
What language did the Chinese immigrants who built our western railroads learn?
What language did the Italians without papers learn?
What language did our Japanese immigrants who were put into Japanese internment camps during WWII learn?
I think that learning English is part of being in America. I know that learning Spanish is part of me being in Buenos Aires.
Speak whatever the hell you want. It doesn't bother me.
But when our government spends extra tax dollars to kowtow to people who refuse to learn English, then I get pissed off.
But when our government spends extra tax dollars to kowtow to people who refuse to learn English, then I get pissed off.
If I moved to Russia, I wouldn't expect the people to understand what the hell I was saying when I spoke to them in English. If I moved to a foreign country and made it my permanent home, I would think it's my responsibility to learn the language. You can speak whatever jibba-jabba you want when you are amongst family/friends who understand you, but if you expect to be treated as a functioning member of society, learn the native tongue.
Nailed above a couple of times. Come here and don't speak, no problem, we'll try to help you out. Stay here and make no effort to learn the language, piss off. You are on your own at some point.
And I don't mind signs or things like that in several languages for tourists or newbies but paying money to accom. somebody who either refuses or does not try to learn the language is troubling.
I don't know how easy programs or courses are to learn or better learn Englis are to get into or afford but hopefully they are very easy to accomplish entry. If not, they should. Allow somebody to take their driving test or permit test once in Spanish. But in the years until its expiration make sure they know the next test is in English.
And I don't mind signs or things like that in several languages for tourists or newbies but paying money to accom. somebody who either refuses or does not try to learn the language is troubling.
I don't know how easy programs or courses are to learn or better learn Englis are to get into or afford but hopefully they are very easy to accomplish entry. If not, they should. Allow somebody to take their driving test or permit test once in Spanish. But in the years until its expiration make sure they know the next test is in English.
Uncle Rico
1,000+ Posts
agree with pretty much everyone here. don't come to america and act like it's your right for us to go out of our way for you to make it without learning our language. i also get pissed that we pay tax $ accomodatnig people who can't speak english.
that said, i think america sucks in general for our lack of interest in learning a second language.
that said, i think america sucks in general for our lack of interest in learning a second language.
I grew up speaking two languages so I cannot chime in on this as it was natural for me. But I do remember a second language being required in HS and for sure in College. I think what sucks is our not making sure kids learn the language instead of regurgitating it for a grade and not practicing it. They do the bare min. unless it directly helps them in travelling or a job they want. So it seems.
I don't know what more our country could do than require a language in both HS and College. Then you would have debates as to what language is offered, how unfair it is another is not, etc... Some would say that more involvement or requirement to learn another is giving in to speakers of that language and sends the wrong message.
Imagine if every kid had to learn how to speak good to great Spanish before they graduate HS. If you were an immigarant, why would you bother to learn English?
I don't know what more our country could do than require a language in both HS and College. Then you would have debates as to what language is offered, how unfair it is another is not, etc... Some would say that more involvement or requirement to learn another is giving in to speakers of that language and sends the wrong message.
Imagine if every kid had to learn how to speak good to great Spanish before they graduate HS. If you were an immigarant, why would you bother to learn English?
Hayden_Horn
1,000+ Posts
it's absolutely polarizing, and i believe that it underlines a fundamental xenophobic ignorance in our native population.
everyone expects immigrants to immediately assimilate. it just doesn't happen that way. it didn't happen for the italians. it didn't happen for the germans. it hasn't happened for any non-english speaking immigrant group this nation has ever seen.
i suscribe to the "three generation assimilation" theory. i'm sure i'm not the only one, but my wife used to teach in an east side school with plenty of hispanic immigrants.
first generation immigrants are rarely more than conversational. second generation immigrants usually speak well, but with an accent, but third generation immigrants have been more or less assimilated.
my wife is fourth generation mexican. er, SPANISH, as her grandmother reminds me often, but they came from mexico.
in any case, she doesn't speak with an accent. her mom has a slight accent, but her spanish is conversational, but weak. her grandmother has a thick accent, and her english is very good. i obviously never met her great grandmother, but from what i understand, spanish was the language at home.
it happens, people, but it takes time.
i lived in japan for a year. that's a little different than moving from one romance language speaking country to another, granted, but i at least have a baseline for where living in another country and being expected to know the language goes.
naturally, japan is very friendly to english speakers, but i try to imagine how lost i would've been were it not.
in addition, let's not forget that a lot of our current immigrants from the south are probably unskilled laborers. many of them are illiterate. they are coming over here for a better life for their families. that includes the education that they were never afforded in oaxaca or wherever.
often, by the third generation, i'd bet, most of these families have fully assimilated.
i think that the current "you come here, you speak english!" mantra is tired, and a little stupid.
texas has always been a bilingual state, since its inception. it will continue to be for some time. get used to it, and understand that as long as we keep providing education, be it all in english, or even bilingual ESL education, that we are making progress.
everyone expects immigrants to immediately assimilate. it just doesn't happen that way. it didn't happen for the italians. it didn't happen for the germans. it hasn't happened for any non-english speaking immigrant group this nation has ever seen.
i suscribe to the "three generation assimilation" theory. i'm sure i'm not the only one, but my wife used to teach in an east side school with plenty of hispanic immigrants.
first generation immigrants are rarely more than conversational. second generation immigrants usually speak well, but with an accent, but third generation immigrants have been more or less assimilated.
my wife is fourth generation mexican. er, SPANISH, as her grandmother reminds me often, but they came from mexico.
in any case, she doesn't speak with an accent. her mom has a slight accent, but her spanish is conversational, but weak. her grandmother has a thick accent, and her english is very good. i obviously never met her great grandmother, but from what i understand, spanish was the language at home.
it happens, people, but it takes time.
i lived in japan for a year. that's a little different than moving from one romance language speaking country to another, granted, but i at least have a baseline for where living in another country and being expected to know the language goes.
naturally, japan is very friendly to english speakers, but i try to imagine how lost i would've been were it not.
in addition, let's not forget that a lot of our current immigrants from the south are probably unskilled laborers. many of them are illiterate. they are coming over here for a better life for their families. that includes the education that they were never afforded in oaxaca or wherever.
often, by the third generation, i'd bet, most of these families have fully assimilated.
i think that the current "you come here, you speak english!" mantra is tired, and a little stupid.
texas has always been a bilingual state, since its inception. it will continue to be for some time. get used to it, and understand that as long as we keep providing education, be it all in english, or even bilingual ESL education, that we are making progress.
Fried JJ Pickles
1,000+ Posts
This is America, if you can't get by without speaking [insert language here], learn to speak [insert language here].
Like the free market and the economy, the language issue mostly takes care of itself. People will use the languages that they need to use to succeed in life.
I could care less what language my great great great grandchildren prefer to use. If I needed to learn Spanish to get a big promotion, I'd learn Spanish. If people in the Rio Grande valley can get by and live comfortably without speaking English, good for them. If they can't and they need to learn English, they will.
Like the free market and the economy, the language issue mostly takes care of itself. People will use the languages that they need to use to succeed in life.
I could care less what language my great great great grandchildren prefer to use. If I needed to learn Spanish to get a big promotion, I'd learn Spanish. If people in the Rio Grande valley can get by and live comfortably without speaking English, good for them. If they can't and they need to learn English, they will.
Actually, need some clarity. I meant like Chinese people in Chinatown or Hispanics in Little Mexico/Cuba,Paraguay, I don't find speaking the native tongue offensive at all. Now, if you're expecting your salesman or whomever to be able to speak Spanish or Chinese, then that's a bit presumptious.
Also, it's hard to learn a second language past 20.
Also, it's hard to learn a second language past 20.
Uncle Rico
1,000+ Posts
hayden, i don't think we are expecting people to come to america and have the goal of speaking fluent english within 6 months. whenever i visit another country, i make an attempt to speak their language. it's polite and that's all i ask. hell, whenever i see a hispanic who is obviously lost and cant speak english i approach him with my ******** spanish and try to help. why? it's polite and i'd want someone to do that for me.
that said, i think a bunch of people's frustration is with the:
1) group of immigrants not even making an effort
2) the tax dollars spent supporting the efforts of group mentioned in 1)
i realize the economic benefit of the hispanic immigrant and am not stupid enough to throw the whole deport them if they can't speak english. everyone likes cheap houses and roads built by their labor but wants them to learn english ASAP. there is an unfortunate economic/social tug of war that has 2 sides with valid points.
when you were in japan did the smallest attempt at japanese not provide some slack?
that said, i think a bunch of people's frustration is with the:
1) group of immigrants not even making an effort
2) the tax dollars spent supporting the efforts of group mentioned in 1)
i realize the economic benefit of the hispanic immigrant and am not stupid enough to throw the whole deport them if they can't speak english. everyone likes cheap houses and roads built by their labor but wants them to learn english ASAP. there is an unfortunate economic/social tug of war that has 2 sides with valid points.
when you were in japan did the smallest attempt at japanese not provide some slack?
Hayden_Horn
1,000+ Posts
for the most part, i think americans, when confronted with someone who doesn't speak english, FEEL as though that person expects them to speak spanish.
probably not the case.
to reverse the roles, as one who was faced with salespeople and bureaucrats in japan, without being even nominally conversational in japanese, i often found myself using english words and hand signals. you feel pretty ******* stupid if you just stand there saying nothing trying to convey a point.
(EDIT: uncle rico: to answer your question, sure, i used sumimasen [excuse me] to get someone's attention, and then i'd immediately apologize [goman nasai] because i didn't speak in nihongo. i'm also a college educated person who studied, but can't speak fluently 3 [now four, if you count japanese] languages. so i understand the basics of how language works, even if i can't speak it. that said, i would still revert to english reflexively when at a loss for words...end EDIT_)
you can look at it as them EXPECTING you to speak their language, or you can just understand that they don't speak yours, and ya'll need to find another way to communicate, be it through pictures or hand signals or whatever.
it can be done. i'm living proof.
probably not the case.
to reverse the roles, as one who was faced with salespeople and bureaucrats in japan, without being even nominally conversational in japanese, i often found myself using english words and hand signals. you feel pretty ******* stupid if you just stand there saying nothing trying to convey a point.
(EDIT: uncle rico: to answer your question, sure, i used sumimasen [excuse me] to get someone's attention, and then i'd immediately apologize [goman nasai] because i didn't speak in nihongo. i'm also a college educated person who studied, but can't speak fluently 3 [now four, if you count japanese] languages. so i understand the basics of how language works, even if i can't speak it. that said, i would still revert to english reflexively when at a loss for words...end EDIT_)
you can look at it as them EXPECTING you to speak their language, or you can just understand that they don't speak yours, and ya'll need to find another way to communicate, be it through pictures or hand signals or whatever.
it can be done. i'm living proof.
notreally
1,000+ Posts
here is the deal. i could care less if you speak english as long as you realize that i am the one speaking the native tongue and shouldn't be asked to learn your language in almost all settings.
if i go to the taqueria, i don't expect you to translate "el pastor" into english for me. but if i go to mcdonalds, i don't expect to have to translate no salt into spanish for you. unless you plan on living in the spanish speaking part of town the rest of your life (and some do) then you need to learn very basic english at least.
it's really that easy for me.
if i go to the taqueria, i don't expect you to translate "el pastor" into english for me. but if i go to mcdonalds, i don't expect to have to translate no salt into spanish for you. unless you plan on living in the spanish speaking part of town the rest of your life (and some do) then you need to learn very basic english at least.
it's really that easy for me.
Hayden got it. Immigrant unskilled workers are not going to be fluent (or probably anything beyond barely functional) english speakers. If they are going to be legally here, we have an obligation to make sure that they understand the papers and rules and regulations of the country. Those who keep mentioning 19th/early 20th century immigrants, most of them never became functional english speakers. But the nature of the country (and the world) was such that we could get away with treating them as 2nd or 3rd class citizens. There are better expectations now.
This is one of the biggest, if not hte biggest, negative of living in El Paso. I am hispanic and am in no way fluent in spanish. I can get by sometimes, but i certainly cant hold a conversation.
I am a pharmacist and still get surprised, pissed, annoyed, dissappointed that i cannot communicate with about 40% of the population here. I do try but i constantly find myself getting defensive b/c i very frequently talk to people who get upset that i cannot speak spanish, and act as if we live im mexico where i should speak it.
IF you live south of I-10 in El Paso, you could probably go your whole life w/o speaking english here, which probably happens all the time. There are a lot of people who are educated in EL Paso and can barely speak english b/c a lot of our 'bilingual' classes are only taugh in spanish, since its easier for the kids and teachers.
Its very sad. and as soon as i can pry my wife and baby boy away from her family i will get the hell out of here.
I am a pharmacist and still get surprised, pissed, annoyed, dissappointed that i cannot communicate with about 40% of the population here. I do try but i constantly find myself getting defensive b/c i very frequently talk to people who get upset that i cannot speak spanish, and act as if we live im mexico where i should speak it.
IF you live south of I-10 in El Paso, you could probably go your whole life w/o speaking english here, which probably happens all the time. There are a lot of people who are educated in EL Paso and can barely speak english b/c a lot of our 'bilingual' classes are only taugh in spanish, since its easier for the kids and teachers.
Its very sad. and as soon as i can pry my wife and baby boy away from her family i will get the hell out of here.
It will work itself out. It's already happening, but salespeople, marketers, businessmen, etc.. will choose to learn Spanish/whatever to tap in to that market. And those that do may/will start to have an advantage. The converse will be true as well that people aspiring to white collar jobs or to do business with the majority those clients that don't know English will not cut it for the immediate future.
If I moved to another country like Germany, I am sure I would give it the ole college try to sit down and learn the language, but in reality, I would probably naturally gravitate towards businesses, eateries, bars, shops that understood English, just like i did as a tourist there. I would probable find other Americans/English speakers and hang out more with them vs people who only spoke German. If I did learn the language, I could expand my opportunities and circle of friends/contacts.
Immigrants here do the same thing. I think folks are more upset with the concept rather than the application. How many times here in America have you really been put off or denied service due to a language barrier? The concern in my mind is more about laws (like having car insurance) and regulations.
Read about (maybe even posted from HF) about a shop owner in Ohio that would not sell anything to Spanish speaking customers who would not provide a SS card. Win-Win plan for sure.
EP, just saw your post above mine. That's pretty crazy and something I did not consider that pharmacist would be difficult to understand.
If I moved to another country like Germany, I am sure I would give it the ole college try to sit down and learn the language, but in reality, I would probably naturally gravitate towards businesses, eateries, bars, shops that understood English, just like i did as a tourist there. I would probable find other Americans/English speakers and hang out more with them vs people who only spoke German. If I did learn the language, I could expand my opportunities and circle of friends/contacts.
Immigrants here do the same thing. I think folks are more upset with the concept rather than the application. How many times here in America have you really been put off or denied service due to a language barrier? The concern in my mind is more about laws (like having car insurance) and regulations.
Read about (maybe even posted from HF) about a shop owner in Ohio that would not sell anything to Spanish speaking customers who would not provide a SS card. Win-Win plan for sure.
EP, just saw your post above mine. That's pretty crazy and something I did not consider that pharmacist would be difficult to understand.
Fat Crazy Hippie
250+ Posts
Wherever Exxon (or big oil) has a foothold in the world they force their foreign workers (on foreign soil) to speak english.
Rightwingers obviously don't care for that, but woild start WWIII iif that happened in the US.
Rightwingers obviously don't care for that, but woild start WWIII iif that happened in the US.
Uncle Rico
1,000+ Posts
hayden, what you did in japan is basically what i do in foreign countries. by making an attempt to speak their language most people are forgiving and appreciate you acknowledging their language.
i also agree that most people living in other countries will just gravitate to the pockets where they speak english. no problem with that as long as you realize that by not making the attempt to communicate on their level you might have difficulties. if you can't accept that, tough ****.
i also agree that most people living in other countries will just gravitate to the pockets where they speak english. no problem with that as long as you realize that by not making the attempt to communicate on their level you might have difficulties. if you can't accept that, tough ****.
But when our government spends extra tax dollars to kowtow to people who refuse to learn English, then I get pissed off.
________________________________________________
You wouldnt believe the amount that is spent on spanish only schools alone...the tax waste is unbelieveable..
________________________________________________
You wouldnt believe the amount that is spent on spanish only schools alone...the tax waste is unbelieveable..
Wherever Exxon (or big oil) has a foothold in the world they force their foreign workers (on foreign soil) to speak english.
__________________________________________________
How the hell else am i supposed to get something done when im here in the US talking to a engineer in the middle east. He better be able to speak english. its an american company, you will need to speak with americans..english is a requirement obviously...
__________________________________________________
How the hell else am i supposed to get something done when im here in the US talking to a engineer in the middle east. He better be able to speak english. its an american company, you will need to speak with americans..english is a requirement obviously...
Hayden_Horn
1,000+ Posts
dallas_the_tiger
100+ Posts
I agree with Hayden Horn.
A friend of mine just moved into the southern part of LA's "Chinatown". So close to downtown that I asked him there are even any Chinese people left there.
He told me that all of his neighbors are Chinese and that his next door neighbor is some old Chinese dude that doesn't speak a word of English. Only Chinese & Spanish.
PS- This friend have a half Japanese/ half Jewish wife. She's a "Jap & a J.A.P.", but that doesn't keep him from occasionally referring to her as "The Chink".
He told me that all of his neighbors are Chinese and that his next door neighbor is some old Chinese dude that doesn't speak a word of English. Only Chinese & Spanish.
PS- This friend have a half Japanese/ half Jewish wife. She's a "Jap & a J.A.P.", but that doesn't keep him from occasionally referring to her as "The Chink".
Statalyzer
10,000+ Posts
Brisketexan
1,000+ Posts
Point 1 -- I think that, in large part, the "speak English, dammit" is the same thinly-veiled xenophobia we've seen before. Countless waves of immigrants in the past didn't learn English, or did so very minimally (Italian, German, etc.). Their kids did, etc. -- Hayden's "3 generations" theory is spot-on. It's happening today. But I would wager that within 20 years, when generation 3 is starting to talk, they will be excellent English speakers (well, at least as good as the rest of the piss-poor English speakers we have in this country).
Point 2 -- The issue of gobs of tax dollars going to accomodate non-English speakers hacks me off. I think that folks should be free to speak what they wish, with both the good and bad consequences that come with it. A salesman who learns Spanish will probably make more sales in Texas -- so if he wants to communicate in Spanish at times, groovy. Someone who refuses to learn enough of the English language to read a ballot -- well then, I guess you shouldn't vote. Voting IS a right, but you have to actually DO something to vote, and for some folks, learning English may be that thing.
Point 3 --
Point 2 -- The issue of gobs of tax dollars going to accomodate non-English speakers hacks me off. I think that folks should be free to speak what they wish, with both the good and bad consequences that come with it. A salesman who learns Spanish will probably make more sales in Texas -- so if he wants to communicate in Spanish at times, groovy. Someone who refuses to learn enough of the English language to read a ballot -- well then, I guess you shouldn't vote. Voting IS a right, but you have to actually DO something to vote, and for some folks, learning English may be that thing.
Point 3 --
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