The Undercurrent, revisited

[mchammer]

NJ,

Sorry if I've missed anything big on this, but a lot of this seems to come from Twitter, which I thoroughly detest. I have a Twitter account, but I never use it. I don't even have the Twitter app on my phone. It's just not worth the space or the annoying notifications.

It looks like the New York Times has raised the antisemitism issue with Trump, but once they announced that they were basically going to set aside the normal standards of journalistic integrity to screw with Trump, they lost my respect. They were baldly partisan already, but this just put them on the propaganda level for me. As far as I'm concerned, they're the Daily Kos now at least when covering this election, so I've largely stopped taking them seriously. It's sad, because it weakens their credibility. There are plenty of overtly idiotic things Trump has said and proposed that are ruining his candidacy. Supposedly legitimate news organizations don't have to be unfair, hypocritical, or dishonest to deny him the White House.

I know little about neo-Nazi code, and I can't troll their websites, because Die Polizei will stop following a terror suspect to arrest me and seize my computers. I'll take your word for it that Trump's posts might be appealing to neo-Nazis in the U.S. Having said that, I think that after reading a little bit about Clinton basically admitting privately that she's going to ***** for the banking industry and taking their money, I think criticizing her for that is fair game and certainly not per se antisemitic. In fact, I think it is worrisome. Will some of those bankers whose nuts will be in Hillary's mouth be Jews? I don't care. I do care that they'll all be sleazy like every other business interest that buys off politicians.

Either way, I was nauseated enough by both candidates to cast my ballot for neither and dropped it in the mail yesterday. Screw 'em both.

Thank you for your half vote for Trump.

 

[UTChE96]

I would have expected Jews to be more concerned about Obama's concessions to Iran's nuclear program. A nuclear Iran will cause far more harm to Israel than a bunch of fringe fanatics on Twitter. Obama has been as foolish with Iran as Carter/Clinton were with the North Koreans and it will very likely end the same way.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Thank you for your half vote for Trump.

LOL! Honestly, I was expecting more contempt and vitriol from you.

For the most part, I think I can predict how people will react even if they don't say anything. I35, Horn6721, and Phil Elliott will roll their eyes and think I'm an idiot, a traitor, or both. mb227 will think I made the wrong call but won't totally crap on my decision mainly because she's too cool to do that. Horn11, SH, Crockett, and NJ will think, "well done." texas_ex2000 and UTChE96 will respect what I did under under the circumstances even if they disagree with it. (BTW, I did toy with voting for Evan McMullin whom I prefer, but I had a rationale for not doing so.) I think Hollandtx could go either way. She's nauseated by Trump, but she has said things that suggest she's even more nauseated by political correctness, so I'm not sure. She might respect me a little less but probably won't hate my guts afterwards.

 

[Seattle Husker]

LOL! Honestly, I was expecting more contempt and vitriol from you.

For the most part, I think I can predict how people will react even if they don't say anything. I35, Horn6721, and Phil Elliott will roll their eyes and think I'm an idiot, a traitor, or both. mb227 will think I made the wrong call but won't totally crap on my decision mainly because she's too cool to do that. Horn11, SH, Crockett, and NJ will think, "well done." texas_ex2000 and UTChE96 will respect what I did under under the circumstances even if they disagree with it. (BTW, I did toy with voting for Evan McMullin whom I prefer, but I had a rationale for not doing so.) I think Hollandtx could go either way. She's nauseated by Trump, but she has said things that suggest she's even more nauseated by political correctness, so I'm not sure. She might respect me a little less but probably won't hate my guts afterwards.

I do appreciate the principled stand rather than "it's all about the team although we hate the team" that seems prevalent in posts from others.

 

[Horns11]

Should I take that as an insult? In case you didn't know, Austin lawyers mostly consider Houston lawyers to be jackasses and a little dishonest.

I'm not a lawyer, and don't see you as a jackass or dishonest. Maybe more international people are from DFW and Houston than the suburban Austin area? I don't know. I'm DFW myself. I could see you spewing out all sorts of Tom DeLay hate and getting mainstream GOP people to vote against him, much like the current Trump situation.

 

[UTChE96]

texas_ex2000 and UTChE96 will respect what I did under under the circumstances even if they disagree with it.

I actually do not plan on voting for Trump either at this point. I think having someone as unreliable and unpredictable as him as the face of the Republican party for another 4 years would be far too damaging. I stated in a different thread, the best outcome now is for Trump to lose in convincing fashion to serve as a warning for future elections.

I am not sure if write in candidates are accepted. If so, I will write in Kasich. Otherwise, I will vote for Gary Johnson

 

[Mr. Deez]

I actually do not plan on voting for Trump either at this point. I think having someone as unreliable and unpredictable as him as the face of the Republican party for another 4 years would be far too damaging. I stated in a different thread, the best outcome now is for Trump to lose in convincing fashion to serve as a warning for future elections.

I am not sure if write in candidates are accepted. If so, I will write in Kasich. Otherwise, I will vote for Gary Johnson

There are write-in candidates that you can choose from. Evan McMullin is on there. He's probably your best choice. He's a very decent man and a real, mainstream conservative. He's running with an interesting but long shot strategy. He's basically running a one-state strategy - carry Utah, where he's a serious contender. In fact, one poll shows him in the lead.

Why do that? Because if the election is so close that Utah's 6 electoral votes are decisive and he carries it, the race will move to the House of Representatives, where the top three candidates will stand for election with each state getting one vote. HRC has no chance in that scenario, and if the House has a choice between Trump and a mainstream, traditional conservative, they might choose McMullin. The President hasn't been selected by the House since 1824, but it's not out of the question.

I didn't vote for McMullin, because he's a write-in in Texas, so he's not going to get significant votes. Johnson may, which means he's a better conduit for protesting HRC and Trump. However, if I lived in Utah, this would be a no-brainer. McMullin would be my clear choice.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I'm not a lawyer, and don't see you as a jackass or dishonest. Maybe more international people are from DFW and Houston than the suburban Austin area? I don't know. I'm DFW myself. I could see you spewing out all sorts of Tom DeLay hate and getting mainstream GOP people to vote against him, much like the current Trump situation.

I was born in Oakland, California and moved to Plano when I was 8 years old and stayed there until I went to law school when I was 23, so I grew up in the DFW area.

My "international status" was a bit accidental. Mrs. Deez was offered a job interview as a teacher with the Defense Department in Germany just a few months after we got married. I said no chance in hell would I move to Europe, because I didn't want to stop practicing law. However, I told her I'd take her to Germany to visit. I did, and I fell in love with the place. It was awesome, and I loved everything about it. We returned to Italy the next year on vacation, and I loved it as well. She decided to apply again, and I told her that if she got offered a job in Europe, I'd do it. Very, very few teachers get offered a job in Europe, so I had no expectation that it would actually happen. Well, it did, and I made a promise, so yada, yada, yada, I went from being a trial lawyer to being a kept man and a stay at home dad within just a few months. Seems crazy, but I couldn't be happier with what we did.

 

[mchammer]

I was born in Oakland, California and moved to Plano when I was 8 years old and stayed there until I went to law school when I was 23, so I grew up in the DFW area.

My "international status" was a bit accidental. Mrs. Deez was offered a job interview as a teacher with the Defense Department in Germany just a few months after we got married. I said no chance in hell would I move to Europe, because I didn't want to stop practicing law. However, I told her I'd take her to Germany to visit. I did, and I fell in love with the place. It was awesome, and I loved everything about it. We returned to Italy the next year on vacation, and I loved it as well. She decided to apply again, and I told her that if she got offered a job in Europe, I'd do it. Very, very few teachers get offered a job in Europe, so I had no expectation that it would actually happen. Well, it did, and I made a promise, so yada, yada, yada, I went from being a trial lawyer to being a kept man and a stay at home dad within just a few months. Seems crazy, but I couldn't be happier with what we did.

I'm counting on that open-mindedness after Trump wins to convert you into a Trump supporter.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I'm counting on that open-mindedness after Trump wins to convert you into a Trump supporter.

If that happens, I'll hope and pray for the best like I have after every other election.

 

[Hollandtx]

Mr. Deez, your vote mirrors what mine will be. (I gave it a thumbs up before I even saw your post)
I just can't vote for either of them and look in the mirror.

If I'm being 100% honest, living in Texas makes that moral choice a shade easier.
If I lived in a swing state, I would not be able to cast a vote for HRC. I have always found her to be a person who at the very least, is clouded in controversy. I would most likely write in Kasich. Or my mom.
The leaks, emails, and information over the past couple of weeks have simply confirmed everything I suspected about the whole Clinton family.
I am appalled at the lack of outrage and coverage by the "media" and Hillary supporters.
My Fbook friend gallery who are all "With HER" proudly, can only yammer on about her awesome answer on abortion, and how she laid a whipping on Trump. They also are just appalled that Trump suggested he wouldn't accept the outcome should he lose (admittedly a stupid thing to say) However, these were the very people who, 6 months ago, were still whining about how Bush "stole" the election from Gore.
Have I said how much I hate hypocrisy?
They don't even see the irony that a career politician who is well practiced in debates should even have an issue "winning" a debate over a guy like Trump.
I would venture to guess there are 3-5 people in this forum who could paint her in to a corner with little effort.

I literally feel sick to my stomach at the thought of Hillary at the helm. She has had 25+ years to think about what she plans to do...I don't know how this country will ever recover.
Hopefully, we can hunker down and wait it out for 4 years, then give the WH a Silkwood shower and start with a group of fresh, younger candidates from every party.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I am appalled at the lack of outrage and coverage by the "media" and Hillary supporters.

Yep, and they do it by letting her divert attention away from the contents of the hacked materials and toward the speculation (albeit a well-founded speculation) that Russia was behind the hacking. She blabs on about this, and by the time she's done, the point has gotten lost. Of course, Trump could deal with this shallow tactic by first bringing up her own poor record of cyber security by using an unsecured private e-mail server. If you think about it, she really has no credibility on the issue. Second, he could stop trying to defend the Russians (not sure why he does this) and simply refocus the discussion back to the contents of the hacked materials.

Of course, there's hypocrisy in the media's conduct. They let her change the subject to how the information was acquired, but they never granted that courtesy to Trump about his tax return (or partial return). If someone gets your tax return without your express permission or without a court order of some kind, then some fiduciary of yours has breached his duty of confidentiality and has therefore broken the law. But who's discussing that issue about Trump's return? Nobody.

My Fbook friend gallery who are all "With HER" proudly, can only yammer on about her awesome answer on abortion,

First, I don't see how anyone could be proudly "with her" or with either of these candidates. She has mostly sold out her ideological liberalism for a corporate agenda. The hacked materials pretty much make that clear. Really, the only group she hasn't sold out is the God-haters. Second, even if you're staunchly in favor of abortion rights, her answer was mediocre. It really only sounded good, because of her opponent.

They also are just appalled that Trump suggested he wouldn't accept the outcome should he lose (admittedly a stupid thing to say) However, these were the very people who, 6 months ago, were still whining about how Bush "stole" the election from Gore.

The media and the Left (a clear redundancy) are making an absurdly big deal out of this, but it's another issue where Trump's sloppy rhetoric hurts him. Instead of saying he may not accept the results, he should say that he will accept the results but that he reserves the right to exercise his legal rights in the event of any irregularities just as previous candidates have. The answer he gives leaves a lot of room for the Left to engage in wild speculation about conspiracies, intimidation, lawlessness, etc.

I would venture to guess there are 3-5 people in this forum who could paint her in to a corner with little effort.

True, and there isn't a person in this forum who couldn't do a much better job than Trump even with no preparation at all. This debate was his best performance, and he still stumbled around incoherently with so many of his answers. Hell, he used the term "bigly." That might be a word (since almost anything can be word nowadays), but it sounds like something a five-year-old would say. Or to put it more directly and on his level, Trump don't talk too goodly.

 

[mchammer]

Big league.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Big league.

I've been wondering if Trump is saying "big league" or "bigly" (a made up word). It certainly sounds like the latter.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Big league.

It sounded like "bigly," and according to the transcript, it was "bigly." Furthermore in context, bigly would have made more sense than big league.

 

[Seattle Husker]

It sounded like "bigly," and according to the transcript, it was "bigly." Furthermore in context, bigly would have made more sense than big league.

I found an article that claims "bigly" is a word but search doesn't show any results a Mirriam Webster's site or Dictionary.com. So, I'm assuming this is a made up word. Every time Trump uses it I'm reminded by my HS English teacher of correct use of the English language.

 

[Mr. Deez]

@NJlonghorn , just yesterday I was listening to a podcast of the Ben Shapiro Show, and he confirmed what you said about the antisemitic activity of the Trump campaign. (Not sure if you know who Shapiro is, but he's a young, conservative, Jewish, anti-Trump political commentator, who ironically used to work for Breitbart.) He says he doesn't think Trump is antisemitic but that he gives a "wind and a nod" to the alt-right, which he considers to have significant antisemitic elements.

He also mentioned that the ADL put out a report of antisemitic targeting of journalists in the 2016 campaign. It's disturbing, and apparently the attacks on Shapiro went up sharply when he became vocally anti-Trump. Link.

 

[mchammer]

It sounded like "bigly," and according to the transcript, it was "bigly." Furthermore in context, bigly would have made more sense than big league.

Big league is a pet phrase of his. This has been discussed ad infininum on other forums. Trust me on this.

 

[iatrogenic]

I see five scenarios that could conceivably explain what is happening:

Unfortunately, you missed the only explanation that actually explains the situation, and it is one that has previously been pointed out on this board. Fortunately, Valdimir Putin and Donald Trump were able to work closely together (in the few minutes Trump was able to pull himself away from hating blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, NATO, lack of nuclear war, women, the poor, elections, fat Miss Universe winners, and during the process of installing poisonous gas lines in the Holocaust Museum) to hack the DNC emails. In those emails, it was clearly shown how the DNC fabricated the "anti-Semitism" falsehoods used to bully Trump. This was done using the same playbook the Democrat's follow on "how to use linguistics to equate anti-bullying with anti-conservatism", as pointed out by Ben Shapiro.

Specifically, the DNC writes a purely partisan, false story inferring Trump hates Jews. In the story, the writer mentions the Jewish Defense League and the Anti-Defamation League. The writer then forwards to article to the ADL and JDL (both supporters of the Democrats) and asks for their approval to print the story. Of course, they both agree. Further, one of the organizations issues a paraphrased story expressing the same false views.

In order to bolster the fabricated lies, a liberal, Jewish reporter publishes an actual anti-Semitic remark a twitter user sent to insult the reporter after the reporter did a hit piece on Trump. Subsequently other liberal reporters re-publish the same twitter crap, or refer to/quote the reporter's story repeatedly in order to legitimize the falsehood that Trump is anti-Semitic because some lone, ignorant soul from backwoods New Jersey made a hateful remark about Jews.

And don't forget about the six-point star! Ignore the fact that it was a solid, six point star and not the actual symbol for the star of David, which has two interlaced triangles, because that doesn't fit the narrative.

 

[NJlonghorn]

Missouri Republican who said ‘Hitler was right’ wins state House primary

This guy is openly and blatantly anti-Semitic, and he got enough support to win a Republican nomination to a seat in the Missouri House.

The “undercurrent” grows.

 

[iatrogenic]

Missouri Republican who said ‘Hitler was right’ wins state House primary

This guy is openly and blatantly anti-Semitic, and he got enough support to win a Republican nomination to a seat in the Missouri House.

The “undercurrent” grows.

The "undercurrent" you profess is bull----. It's the same divisive crap Democrats continuously use. Keith Ellison actually hates Jews and he is a leader of the Democrat party. The Dems love him. Name one objective thing Trump has done that indicates he has a bias against Jews.

 

[ProdigalHorn]

From the article:

On Thursday, the Missouri Republican Party denounced West’s “shocking and vile” comments.

“West’s abhorrent rhetoric has absolutely no place in the Missouri Republican Party or anywhere. We wholeheartedly condemn his comments,” the party told The Star.

Reached by The Star, West said his comments were taken out of context, but went on to criticize both Judaism and Islam.

“Jewish people can be beautiful people, but there’s ideologies associated with that that I don’t agree with,” he said. “Jews today are a remnant of the tribe of Judah that rejected Christ.”

When asked about Jewish people in Missouri, he said, “Well, maybe they shouldn’t vote for me.”

The local chapter of the Anti-Defamation League said it was not sure why West’s comments had not been publicized earlier.

“I’m trying to get a sense of why he flew under the radar, and I’m not sure I have a great answer,” said Karen Aroesty, who directs the organization’s operations in Missouri, Southern Illinois and Eastern Kansas.

“What is a person who is elected into a position of power going to do with beliefs like this?” she asked.

Asked if anyone performed background checks, the Clay County GOP said it does not vet candidates or involve itself in primary elections. The Missouri House Republican Leadership said in a statement Thursday that it was not aware of anyone asking West to run.

“To our knowledge, no member of the Missouri Republican Party, the House Republican Campaign Committee, or sitting member of the General Assembly recruited Mr. West to run for office; we find his statements to be vile, offensive, and out of line with our Party’s values,” the statement said.

West’s campaign platform does not mention Jews, but contains a section titled “Islam is a Problem for America” and says that “most parents don’t want their children recieving (sic) alternative sex ed, or having to deal with or be around the LGBT clubs.”

State Rep. Jon Carpenter, the Democratic incumbent for the district, said he hoped people who voted for West simply were unaware of his views.

 

[UTChE96]

I keep waiting for the denunciation of Obama for his association with known anti-Semites such as Jeremiah Wright and Louis Farrakhan. It's a little difficult to take some of the outrage seriously given how a blind-eye is always turned towards the indiscretions of Democrats.

 

[NJlonghorn]

Keith Ellison actually hates Jews and he is a leader of the Democrat party. The Dems love him.

I share your concern about Ellison as a Democratic leader. Here's what I said about the topic in March 2017.

I do not like that the Democrats put Ellison in such a high position. In the 1990s and early 2000s, he was blatantly anti-Semitic, and I don't think you can just wish that away like many liberals try to do.

That said, Ellison has explicitly distanced himself from the Nation of Islam and has condemned the group's anti-Semitic positions. He has been a good (but far from perfect) friend of Israel, he has routinely and loudly denounced radical Islamic terrorism, and he has been very supportive of anti-anti-Semitism ("pro-Semitism"?). While I don't see eye to eye with him politically, I think people like him are critical allies if we want to defeat radical Islamic terrorism.

 

[NJlonghorn]

The "undercurrent" you profess is bull----. . . . Name one objective thing Trump has done that indicates he has a bias against Jews.

I have never said that Trump has a bias against Jews. In fact, I have repeatedly and emphatically stated that I don't think he does. Two examples are the OP in this thread, as well as another part of my post in March 2017:

Trump has confirmed what I said all along, that he himself is not anti-Semitic to any degree.

But I do think Trump does things that appeal to a small but growing group of radical anti-Semites, tending to embolden and enable them. These anti-Semites as the "undercurrent", not Trump. And you don't have to look far or hard to see that their activity and influence are growing. Winning a State legislative primary is yet another step -- a rather large one -- in that direction.

 

[ProdigalHorn]

Winning a State legislative primary is yet another step -- a rather large one -- in that direction.

Considering that he said nothing about it in his platform, and everyone seems to be pretty surprised by all this, I'd say it had a lot more to do with poor vetting and people just picking by party lines than it does a growing appetite for anti-semite candidates.

 

[Horn6721]

NJ
"But I do think Trump does things that appeal to a small but growing group of radical anti-Semites, tending to embolden and enable them."

Interesting. Can You give some examples?

 

[Phil Elliott]

Interesting. Can You give some examples you can prove?

FIFY.

 

[iatrogenic]

I have never said that Trump has a bias against Jews. In fact, I have repeatedly and emphatically stated that I don't think he does. Two examples are the OP in this thread, as well as another part of my post in March 2017:



But I do think Trump does things that appeal to a small but growing group of radical anti-Semites, tending to embolden and enable them. These anti-Semites as the "undercurrent", not Trump. And you don't have to look far or hard to see that their activity and influence are growing. Winning a State legislative primary is yet another step -- a rather large one -- in that direction.

I think NJlonghorn does things that appeal to a large group of anti-Semites whose expressly stated intentions are to extinguish the Jewish population, and, therefore, I question his assertion that he is Jewish. He is an enabler of those committed to allowing, via omission and commission, anti-Semitic Muslim terrorists to enter the U.S.A. He also supports a party that 1)shows bias against Jews by establishing unsigned treaties that would allow Iran to gain nuclear weapons that would be used to destroy Israel, 2) has shipped cash on pallets to the same terrorist government that in-turn uses the funds to sponsor terrorism against Jewish and Christian "infidels", 3) has repeatedly shown that its party's members are biased against Israel and its leaders, 4) have more pro-Palestinian members than pro-Israel members, and, 5) have an avowed anti-Semite in one of the top two positions at the DNCC.

How's that for an "undercurrent"?

 

[I35]

For the most part, I think I can predict how people will react even if they don't say anything. I35, Horn6721, and Phil Elliott will roll their eyes and think I'm an idiot, a traitor, or both.