The Rise and Fall of Texas Football

[FWHORN]

Quite frankly Herman has a better record at winning as a Head coach in his career than Sark. That's a fact not an opinion.

Hence my point that Herman had won enough games to keep his job for at least another year, he lost it for the off the field stuff mostly emanating from his atrocious handling of the Eyes Of Texas issue.

 

[Billy Dale]

Herman had a pitiful record against the big 3 of OU OSU TCU. I think he was 1-4 against OU, 1-3 against TCU and 2-2 against OSU. Can't be a successful coach at a top tier school with that kind of record against your biggest conference rivals, regardless of how many wins you pile up against KU, KSU, etc.

Herman did not have a Longhorn exclusive on losing to TCU, OU, and OSU. I learned long ago not to argue on the internet with people I don't know. That is a feudal exercise and creates unnecessary ill-will . That said, I am not a Herman hater, and I think he was caught in a Longhorn vortex anomaly that he did not create.

 

[Billy Dale]

This is an interesting point. Because, IMO, it's a double-edged sword. The overall cultural change throughout the country has been net negative. People are generally more unhappy now than they were 20 years ago. And cities are hubs of that negativity.

Having said that, I can't think of a college town (with the exception of LA) that competes with Austin for things to do/fun to be had. And that's still a strong positive for recruiting purposes.

Great college football comes from towns of under 500,000 . Look at the below listing for the 2021 top 25 teams the first week of December 2021. 21 of 25 are from towns of under 500,000. The numbers are the population.

Clemson Clemonson S.c. 17671
Ole Miss Oxford , Ms 29,000
Michigan State East Lansing, Me. 49,000
Oklahoma State Stillwater, Ok 50,000
Iowa Iowa City, Iowa 75,000
Arkansas Fayetteville , Ark. 90,000
Notre Dame South Bend 102,000
alabama Tuscaloosa, 103,000
O.U. Norman, Ok 111,000
ByU Prov , Utah 117,000
Utah Provo,Utah 117,000
Texas A & M College Station, Tx 122,000
Baylor Waco , Tx 125,000
University of Louisiana Lafayette Lafyette , La. 126,000
UGA Athens Georgia 129,000
Oregon Eugene , Oregon 177,000
Wake Forest Winston-Salem North Carolina 251,000
Kentucky Wildcats Lexington , Ky 295,803
University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA. 303,000
Michigan Ann Arbor 329,000
North Carolina State Raleigh , N.C. 483579

 

[Billy Dale]

I do appreciate the original post. Billy Dale’s newsletter is a gem.

This is not the first period of huge underachievement for Texas. The ‘20s, ‘30s, ‘50s, and ‘85-‘95 were similar. Yet, somehow, Texas’ inherent advantages are such that it has won more games than all but a handful of programs.

when you enter the stadium from the west side, you go into Bellmont Hall, named after our first AD. Theo Bellmont, one of the founders of the SWC, was only the second most influential person on the program from 1910-1935. First was regent and booster Lutcher Stark, who first associated with the team as a wealthy student around 1900’s. He became team manager and immediately assumed responsibility for scheduling and team management (using his wealth as a backstop for funding team activities). He was the driver in selecting Theo Bellmont as the first AD, and he was the driver in hiring and firing coaches over the next few decades. (Stark, famously, sat on the sidelines with the coach during games).
He became a regent at a very young age, became chairman and was the driving force for the construction of Memorial Stadium. He appears to have honestly been trying to make the program better (note how he didn’t use his money to have his name put all over the place), but at some point in the ‘30s it was clear that his individual management of the program was a handicap compared to rivals that had more professional coaching and management.
When Bible was hired, it was very much an attempt to push Stark out and bring new management in. Bible’s hire was driven by a group of boosters (Stark’s wealth was dwarfed by many of the new boosters) and Stark was banished to the stands by Bible (from his time at TAMC, Bible certainly knew who Stark was and what his role should be).
Bible had a formula for building the program- “The Bible Plan”. It involves using all the boosters to help recruit the whole state (legal at the time), with boosters assigned to regions. He dominated recruiting and built the roster talent to a level not seen before, a formula that has continued to work for Texas over the years (but too often neglected).

Great comments on Longhorn Sports History and Stark. With your permission I would like to add your comments to the Longhorn Sports history website at Texas Legacy Support Network

 

[TaylorTRoom]

Sure! (And feel free to clean up the grammar)

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

Great college football comes from towns of under 500,000 . Look at the below listing for the 2021 top 25 teams the first week of December 2021. 21 of 25 are from towns of under 500,000. The numbers are the population.

Clemson Clemonson S.c. 17671
Ole Miss Oxford , Ms 29,000
Michigan State East Lansing, Me. 49,000
Oklahoma State Stillwater, Ok 50,000
Iowa Iowa City, Iowa 75,000
Arkansas Fayetteville , Ark. 90,000
Notre Dame South Bend 102,000
alabama Tuscaloosa, 103,000
O.U. Norman, Ok 111,000
ByU Prov , Utah 117,000
Utah Provo,Utah 117,000
Texas A & M College Station, Tx 122,000
Baylor Waco , Tx 125,000
University of Louisiana Lafayette Lafyette , La. 126,000
UGA Athens Georgia 129,000
Oregon Eugene , Oregon 177,000
Wake Forest Winston-Salem North Carolina 251,000
Kentucky Wildcats Lexington , Ky 295,803
University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA. 303,000
Michigan Ann Arbor 329,000
North Carolina State Raleigh , N.C. 483579

Billy,
As of 2021 there are only 38 cities in the USA which have more than 500,000 population.
The 200 Largest Cities in the United States by Population 2021
The limited number of large cities vs college towns naturally skews the data you are using to make your point.

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

I am not a Herman hater, and I think he was caught in a Longhorn vortex anomaly that he did not create.

You are right he didn't create it. His problem was he jumped on top and made it a bigger vortex. And he was an immature know it all *******...double birdie.

 

[Billy Dale]

Billy,
As of 2021 there are only 38 cities in the USA which have more than 500,000 population.
The 200 Largest Cities in the United States by Population 2021
The limited number of large cities vs college towns naturally skews the data you are using to make your point.

Well then try this, 16 of the 25 top teams are in towns of population from 17,000 to 177,000 population. Very few teams from big cities such as Miami, New York, San Fran, L.A., Dallas, Minneapolis, Austin, Seattle, and..... are top 25 teams now. While there are many reasons for this ,one is that parents and their sons and daughters like small college town teams that are community driven. In 2021 for whatever reason the Big City Universities did not deliver top 25 teams. I think Larry Carlson's article reflects some of the reasons why big city football is on the decline.

 

[TaylorTRoom]

Yeah, Tom Herman’s job was to coach the football team, not to fix the school song. He didn’t do well enough on the former to make us ignore the latter.

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

I agree with the overarching point about smaller cities being more natural hotbeds for college football. Too many other things to do in the really big cities, plus a greater portion of the population in large cities will have minimal to no connection with the local school.

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

Yeah, Tom Herman’s job was to coach the football team, not to fix the school song. He didn’t do well enough on the former to make us ignore the latter.

For me the breaking point was reached when I heard Herman had team members telling recruits that they might be better off looking elsewhere. When your own team isn't a net positive towards your recruiting efforts, it is time for some type of drastic change.

 

[Horns11]

Here's a list of top schools (in FBS) in the biggest cities that got the "best colleges for urban living" moniker (Rice was actually #1). I left out all of the FCS-and-lower distinctions and schools with no football:

Arizona
Cincinnati
Georgia Tech
Minnesota
NC State
Ohio State
Pitt
Rice
SMU
Texas
TCU
Tulane
Tulsa
UCLA
USF
USC
Vanderbilt
Washington

Ohio State is really the only "sustained success" team on there since the CFP started. Washington and Cincy have at least made the playoff.

I think something that a lot of these colleges have... be it a blessing for academia or a curse in terms of football success... is a growing student population that has really gotten to the creme-de-la-creme-de-la-creme of hypercompetitive, intelligent students who desire more "bang for the buck" on tuition/fees and couldn't care less about football success. Take out the super-expensive private schools on the list and you basically get a who's who of "colleges that seem like they should be good at football but just aren't for some reason." Sans tOSU, of course.

 

[RainH2burntO]

He makes a lot of good points. I do strongly believe that the mismanagement of the firing and hiring at the end of the Brown era is the biggest reason for the demise of the program. Mack was too bullheaded and should not have been allowed to fight the admin on his removal. Then it became a publicity mess and a terrible performance of selling the job to potential candidates. A real cluster f _ _ k! The program went from the penthouse to the s - - t house overnight because of poor succession planning. And a series of mistakes followed. Once you fall to your knees and all of your competition and the media empty their quiver of arrows into you, it is hard to regain your feet. Texas is high on the list of most hated programs.

All of the things said about the changes in Austin are true and nobody has witnessed this cultural change more than me. As to the players, perhaps the most important aspect of today's recruiting is the consideration of what is between the ears. Some of the best teams did not have the best talent on the field, but they had those players with the biggest hearts. Fierce competitors who loved the violent part of the game and nothing mattered but winning. Finding those players will be even more important going forward with the advent of the NIL. Five-star heads and the associated self-importance will expand geometrically with newfound wealth. Many of these kids could not handle the fame before the big bucks. The first questions to a high school coach about a recruit needs to be about something other than his time in the 40. What is the work ethic, the character, leadership, etc.

Why do they want to play for your team? Money? The coaching job was a lot harder than in the Royal era and it just got even harder.

Great post, Chin. Well done, sir...

 

[Billy Dale]

I do appreciate the original post. Billy Dale’s newsletter is a gem.

This is not the first period of huge underachievement for Texas. The ‘20s, ‘30s, ‘50s, and ‘85-‘95 were similar. Yet, somehow, Texas’ inherent advantages are such that it has won more games than all but a handful of programs.

when you enter the stadium from the west side, you go into Bellmont Hall, named after our first AD. Theo Bellmont, one of the founders of the SWC, was only the second most influential person on the program from 1910-1935. First was regent and booster Lutcher Stark, who first associated with the team as a wealthy student around 1900’s. He became team manager and immediately assumed responsibility for scheduling and team management (using his wealth as a backstop for funding team activities). He was the driver in selecting Theo Bellmont as the first AD, and he was the driver in hiring and firing coaches over the next few decades. (Stark, famously, sat on the sidelines with the coach during games).
He became a regent at a very young age, became chairman and was the driving force for the construction of Memorial Stadium. He appears to have honestly been trying to make the program better (note how he didn’t use his money to have his name put all over the place), but at some point in the ‘30s it was clear that his individual management of the program was a handicap compared to rivals that had more professional coaching and management.
When Bible was hired, it was very much an attempt to push Stark out and bring new management in. Bible’s hire was driven by a group of boosters (Stark’s wealth was dwarfed by many of the new boosters) and Stark was banished to the stands by Bible (from his time at TAMC, Bible certainly knew who Stark was and what his role should be).
Bible had a formula for building the program- “The Bible Plan”. It involves using all the boosters to help recruit the whole state (legal at the time), with boosters assigned to regions. He dominated recruiting and built the roster talent to a level not seen before, a formula that has continued to work for Texas over the years (but too often neglected).

OK - Your historical comments have passed "Grammarly" and have been placed in the Stark Center section as a "Reflection Point" of Lutcher Stark. Thanks for sharing . Do you want your comments anonymous or credited. Billy Dale
The History of Longhorn Sports

 

[RainH2burntO]

Here's a list of top schools (in FBS) in the biggest cities that got the "best colleges for urban living" moniker (Rice was actually #1). I left out all of the FCS-and-lower distinctions and schools with no football:

Arizona
Cincinnati
Georgia Tech
Minnesota
NC State
Ohio State
Pitt
Rice
SMU
Texas
TCU
Tulane
Tulsa
UCLA
USF
USC
Vanderbilt
Washington

Ohio State is really the only "sustained success" team on there since the CFP started. Washington and Cincy have at least made the playoff.

I think something that a lot of these colleges have... be it a blessing for academia or a curse in terms of football success... is a growing student population that has really gotten to the creme-de-la-creme-de-la-creme of hypercompetitive, intelligent students who desire more "bang for the buck" on tuition/fees and couldn't care less about football success. Take out the super-expensive private schools on the list and you basically get a who's who of "colleges that seem like they should be good at football but just aren't for some reason." Sans tOSU, of course.

I really appreciate and like this^^^^perspective, 11.
It is one I think about alot and have tried to explain to others but with limited success.
I believe it to be generally true in the pros, also. Most of my thoughts revolve around thoughts about football in its simplest form being blue collar and some environments being more conducive than others to the required mentality.
Thanks

 

[RainH2burntO]

I remember arguing with people about it on this very board. Looks like the archives don't go back to the LonghornBob days any longer.

I think there's something to be said for the "City of Austin" effect. Not in terms of political leanings or anything, but the likes of the greatest college football programs don't have to contend with what Austin has to offer on an almost-daily basis. If one commits to Tuscaloosa, the job is to "be" the Crimson Tide, and the city (while definitely no longer podunk) is on board with very limited opportunities for 18-to-23-year-olds in order to keep that balance. Same for Athens, Georgia.

I have thought for some time now we had many recruits coming for the wrong reasons and attracting the wrong type guys ...and some but not all of that are related to things you are hitting on.
I do believe strong leadership...and the right kind...can overcome a good deal of it if administered properly...in spite of some things that can't be changed.

 

[TaylorTRoom]

OK - Your historical comments have passed "Grammarly" and have been placed in the Stark Center section as a "Reflection Point" of Lutcher Stark. Thanks for sharing . Do you want your comments anonymous or credited. Billy Dale
The History of Longhorn Sports

It’s fine to credit them. Most of the info comes from a December 1941 Life magazine article and a 1938 Saturday Evening Post article. Do you need me to PM you my real name?

 

[MajorRules00]

Well then try this, 16 of the 25 top teams are in towns of population from 17,000 to 177,000 population. Very few teams from big cities such as Miami, New York, San Fran, L.A., Dallas, Minneapolis, Austin, Seattle, and..... are top 25 teams now. While there are many reasons for this ,one is that parents and their sons and daughters like small college town teams that are community driven. In 2021 for whatever reason the Big City Universities did not deliver top 25 teams. I think Larry Carlson's article reflects some of the reasons why big city football is on the decline.

The following historically powerful teams reside in cities of more than 177K: Texas, USC, Miami, UCLA, Florida, Florida State, LSU, Ohio State.

Florida State, LSU, and Ohio State have won National Championships in the last 10 years. In the last 20 years, Florida State, LSU, Ohio State, USC, Texas and Florida have won National Championships

Alabama's incredible twelve-year run skews the data heavily towards small cities. As does the number of power programs located in small cities. Having said that, it's an interesting premise worth observing, IMO.

 

[mchammer]

The following historically powerful teams reside in cities of more than 177K: Texas, USC, Miami, UCLA, Florida, Florida State, LSU, Ohio State.

Florida State, LSU, and Ohio State have won National Championships in the last 10 years. In the last 20 years, Florida State, LSU, Ohio State, USC, Texas and Florida have won National Championships

Alabama's incredible twelve-year run skews the data heavily towards small cities. As does the number of power programs located in small cities. Having said that, it's an interesting premise worth observing, IMO.

I have noticed that teams with bigger and faster players tend to win more (see Bama vs Georgia).

 

[yelladawgdem]

I guess the fact that we are in a wad about our record against the "Big 3", and two of them are OSU and TCU are what has me more concerned.

I mean, I'm glad about where those two programs have risen to, and I have familial ties to Stillwater. But we are headed to a league, where at the moment, we are competitive on paper with Vandy, Mizzou, Carolina, and depending on the weekend, Hail State, Auburn and the Alligators. And we are two recruiting classes away from being competitive in the Big 12. Golly. Big 3. F'ning Beat Oklahoma and you can cure a lot of your problems with alums, recruits, media/public perception et. al.

Oh, and as for Tom Osborne hanging on too long at Nebraska and needing to be run off, he won 3 National titles in his last 4 seasons and save for an Orange Bowl officiating robbery (aka Bowden's 1st title) and "Roll Left", he was likely looking at a Five-Peat.

 

[Gladius&Pilum]

I was underwhelmed by this piece. Was hoping for a more definitive take on WHY the Longhorns have struggled. Instead it was just a rehash of the usual suspects:

Texas is soft. Maybe. But if so, why is Texas soft? Can't be fancy lockers. UGA has fancy lockers as does Bama, Clemson, etc.

Texas doesn't develop players well. Maybe. What's the evidence? Dearth of 1st round picks? That could be evidence of poor development or maybe the players have been overrated and actually reached their ceilings at UT.

Bad coaches. Maybe. However, all of the coaches were hot commodities when hired. Doubt they were all fool's gold.

In the end, it was basically just a walk down memory lane.

 

[SabreHorn]

In the end, it was basically just a walk down memory lane.

Have to disagree. Ours was almost entirely interference from educrats wanting to play general manager without a clue what they were doing.

In the case of A&M, y'all have done a great job of keeping you educrats in check, but not so much the boosters - see also Bum Bright.

 

[Giovanni Jones]

I was underwhelmed by this piece. Was hoping for a more definitive take on WHY the Longhorns have struggled. Instead it was just a rehash of the usual suspects:

Texas is soft. Maybe. But if so, why is Texas soft? Can't be fancy lockers. UGA has fancy lockers as does Bama, Clemson, etc.

Texas doesn't develop players well. Maybe. What's the evidence? Dearth of 1st round picks? That could be evidence of poor development or maybe the players have been overrated and actually reached their ceilings at UT.

Bad coaches. Maybe. However, all of the coaches were hot commodities when hired. Doubt they were all fool's gold.

In the end, it was basically just a walk down memory lane.

And I would have liked to have seen some practical suggestions for addressing these issues.

 

[Giovanni Jones]

and just my dos pesos, Austin hasn't really been a "charming college town" since the early to mid 1970s (at the latest). It was well on the way to metrofication* by the time I was there in the early 1980s.


*a word I just made up, meaning urban/suburban sprawl with all the attendant traffic and quality of life issues

 

[MajorRules00]

and just my dos pesos, Austin hasn't really been a "charming college town" since the early to mid 1970s (at the latest). It was well on the way to metrofication* by the time I was there in the early 1980s.


*a word I just made up, meaning urban/suburban sprawl with all the attendant traffic and quality of life issues

It was well over 500,000 when I joined in '98. Didn't seem to hurt Mack's glory days.

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

and just my dos pesos, Austin hasn't really been a "charming college town" since the early to mid 1970s (at the latest). It was well on the way to metrofication* by the time I was there in the early 1980s.


*a word I just made up, meaning urban/suburban sprawl with all the attendant traffic and quality of life issues

Yeah, when I lived in Austin as a 7th grader in '75-'76 our favorite family swimming hole was Bull Creek park. When I came back for college in 1981 it was off limits to any swimmers.

 

[Giovanni Jones]

It was well over 500,000 when I joined in '98. Didn't seem to hurt Mack's glory days.

True. But I rather doubt that whether Austin is a "charming college town" or "Little Houston in the Hill Country" is a major factor affecting UT football.

 

[Gladius&Pilum]

and just my dos pesos, Austin hasn't really been a "charming college town" since the early to mid 1970s (at the latest). It was well on the way to metrofication* by the time I was there in the early 1980s.


*a word I just made up, meaning urban/suburban sprawl with all the attendant traffic and quality of life issues

Yeah, Austin hasn't been "Austin" since the first big wave of transplants arrived in 1983ish (of which I'm a member).

Despite people claiming Bryan/CStat is ********, the city where a University is located is way down the list in terms of recruiting importance.

 

[SabreHorn]

the city where a University is located is way down the list in terms of recruiting importance.

While I agree, my thought has aways been that's because a multitude of players/recruits had no money to take a girl on a date or go to the local hotspots. I can see a great opportunity for that to change with NIL $$ for all. More money available, more desire for places to party.

The days of Earl arriving with a couple of pairs of jeans, a few t-shirts, boots & tennis shoes are likely gone forever. On the bright side, Bosworth wouldn't have to suffer the indignity of driving that damn Corvette around Norman while his Jag convertible was parked in the garage with the keys in Barry's desk drawer.

 

[Bayerithe]

We had leaders with a mean streak in the 2000s. Everyone remembers Vince in 2005, but we had some beasts with some attitude in the trenches. Guys like Kasey Studdard are what we are missing.