ProdigalHorn
10,000+ Posts
Wrong plan, Johnny. Nice try, though.
Y
YoLaDu
Guest
Y
YoLaDu
Guest
from the article linked:
HornsForever'93
1,000+ Posts
Johnny is correct. If Obama completely endorsed the right wing platform, they would turn around and make up a new platform on the spot. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so destructive to our real national problems
And what, in your opinion, are our "real national problems"?
THEU
2,500+ Posts
Yo,
I think that you and I might agree personally, more than we agree on any plans being proposed.
My plan would include massive cuts to defense (like 30%), massive cuts to entitlements (like 30%), and then a closing of tax loopholes and a vote to raise the debt limit.
My issue with raising taxes, is one that you seem to have not responded to, or just ignored. The problem is NO matter what the income level (tax revenue) BOTH parties have out spent it. It is like a child who has outspent their allowance. I don't want to increase his allowance, until he proves he can live within his means.
And yea, I would say your sensibilities are a bit different than mine I guess. I generally call 'em as I see it. I am much more about telling the truth than I am about trying to be politically correct about it.
I think that you and I might agree personally, more than we agree on any plans being proposed.
My plan would include massive cuts to defense (like 30%), massive cuts to entitlements (like 30%), and then a closing of tax loopholes and a vote to raise the debt limit.
My issue with raising taxes, is one that you seem to have not responded to, or just ignored. The problem is NO matter what the income level (tax revenue) BOTH parties have out spent it. It is like a child who has outspent their allowance. I don't want to increase his allowance, until he proves he can live within his means.
And yea, I would say your sensibilities are a bit different than mine I guess. I generally call 'em as I see it. I am much more about telling the truth than I am about trying to be politically correct about it.
B
bronco
Guest
You guys can keep defending BO and blaming the repubs as long as you want. Everyone agrees that both parties are responsible for this mess.
BO appointed a bi-partisan debt commission. They came back with a plan including serious spending cuts coupled with tax increases/revenue increases. BO ******* ignored it. His own committee. Completely disregarded the suggestion of a group he hand picked to come up with a plan.
Actions are what matter not his hollow words. To date, there have been many plans and the ONLY one the white house has endorsed is Reid's which provides no real cuts at all.
You guys are acting like children in defending him. He SAYS all kinds of things and has since he was elected. But his actions are so very different. he is just flat out lying to you and you believe him.
One question, do you not think the ******* president of the USA could go to a senator and say draft a bill exactly like this and I will endorse it and we will bring it up for a vote and see what happens? Of course he can. Presidents have done that throughout history. Go on record for what you want SPECIFICALLY. If the Rs vote it down, at least the country will know where everyone stands.
I listened to a bit of BO's speech. What he is asking is pretty much what the debt commission recomended except BO does not want the bottom 50% of the country to contribute anything. Why doesnt he talk about a gas tax or sales tax? Why not talk about the gang of 6 plan that increases revenue by $1T, with the largest percentage coming to the highest earners? He just sucks.
BO appointed a bi-partisan debt commission. They came back with a plan including serious spending cuts coupled with tax increases/revenue increases. BO ******* ignored it. His own committee. Completely disregarded the suggestion of a group he hand picked to come up with a plan.
Actions are what matter not his hollow words. To date, there have been many plans and the ONLY one the white house has endorsed is Reid's which provides no real cuts at all.
You guys are acting like children in defending him. He SAYS all kinds of things and has since he was elected. But his actions are so very different. he is just flat out lying to you and you believe him.
One question, do you not think the ******* president of the USA could go to a senator and say draft a bill exactly like this and I will endorse it and we will bring it up for a vote and see what happens? Of course he can. Presidents have done that throughout history. Go on record for what you want SPECIFICALLY. If the Rs vote it down, at least the country will know where everyone stands.
I listened to a bit of BO's speech. What he is asking is pretty much what the debt commission recomended except BO does not want the bottom 50% of the country to contribute anything. Why doesnt he talk about a gas tax or sales tax? Why not talk about the gang of 6 plan that increases revenue by $1T, with the largest percentage coming to the highest earners? He just sucks.
ProdigalHorn
10,000+ Posts
TaylorTRoom
1,000+ Posts
One difference, Johnny. Boehner represents a party and a branch that have actually proposed a budget that would solve the problem. They have voted on one, and have others written to debate, negotiate, and vote on.
Obama has proposed one budget. It didn't solve the debt limit problem (he claimed at the time there was no problem), and it was voted down in the Senate 97 - 0.
Obama has stated he has one final condition- a debt solution that kicks the can past November 2012. Now, who is playing politics?
Obama has proposed one budget. It didn't solve the debt limit problem (he claimed at the time there was no problem), and it was voted down in the Senate 97 - 0.
Obama has stated he has one final condition- a debt solution that kicks the can past November 2012. Now, who is playing politics?
AustinBat
2,500+ Posts
Anything we pass right now is going to put us in the same place sooner or later. We cannot, as a country, continue to spend money by printing it and then borrowing it from some country. The "scare" tactic of thinking we have to do everything now means that, if everyone compromises, nothing will really be done except raise the debt limit, and if spending isn't drastically cut, we will have to raise the debt ceiling again soon, as we have done over and over in the past. No one wants to really face the huge problems we have. You can't tax your way out of this - if "rich people" were taxed at 100% of their income it wouldn't even make a dent in the debt. When an individual gets to the place the US is now, one option is to declare bankruptcy and start over. That may be what we have to do.
On a side point - how much money would we save if we quit giving it to other countries, often counties who dislike us? We are actually borrowing money to give it to these countries. I'll bet if we stopped that we could take care of all our old people.
On a side point - how much money would we save if we quit giving it to other countries, often counties who dislike us? We are actually borrowing money to give it to these countries. I'll bet if we stopped that we could take care of all our old people.
PhantomHorn
1,000+ Posts
Obama really came off as a self rightous bastard and crybaby in last nights speech. I have never seen such a performance from a sitting President in my lifetime. I truly believe he has no respect for the office or for those who served before him.
He spent the first few minutes bashing Bush's spending and then proclaims his even worse spending as sunshine and lollypops.
He spent the first few minutes bashing Bush's spending and then proclaims his even worse spending as sunshine and lollypops.
THEU
2,500+ Posts
Johnny,
I fully acknowledge that what I just wrote would in many ways wreck our economy. It would be a massive shift in mind set and in actuality in our culture and our economy.
I think it is the right thing though, because I agree with Obama, that it is time for us to do what is not going to be very palliatable, but will be good for us in the long run.
I fully acknowledge that what I just wrote would in many ways wreck our economy. It would be a massive shift in mind set and in actuality in our culture and our economy.
I think it is the right thing though, because I agree with Obama, that it is time for us to do what is not going to be very palliatable, but will be good for us in the long run.
TaylorTRoom
1,000+ Posts
Yes, a long term fix is preferable, but really? Has to be November 2012? August 2012 just isn't something to agree on? The one non-negotiable part isn't tax rates, spending, entitlements...but November 2012?
There are positives to a short term fix. For one thing, events (possible economic collapse of Greece, Portugal, and Ilinois) could clarify the situation. Look how far Obama has come in the last few months.
There are positives to a short term fix. For one thing, events (possible economic collapse of Greece, Portugal, and Ilinois) could clarify the situation. Look how far Obama has come in the last few months.
ProdigalHorn
10,000+ Posts
If Boehner and the Tea Party agree to a long-term plan, I bet you guys touting the benefits of a short-term plan will clam up pretty fast. As has been made clear for a few years, if Obama is for it, you're against it - and that's just about the only metric used.
It's also comical to watch the roles reversed from the HCR debates of a couple years back. Back then, the GOP was not putting forth any concrete plan and merely taking pot-shots at the Democrat plan. We were told at the time by the GOP and posters on here that you don't really need a plan to say that another plan sucks. It seems that line of thinking has gone out the window with the belly-aching over the lack of an Obama plan. My how times have changed.
Not to mention that Boehner often cites the lack of an Obama plan, but has recently told the President that Congress makes the laws and he decides what he wants to sign. So does he really want an Obama plan at all if he's made it clear that coming up with the plans is the job of Congress?
Boehner is now scrambling because his plan lacks support and got gutted by the CBO. I'm assuming now the GOP will revert back to their previous statements that the CBO numbers don't really matter - even though they've used the CBO numbers to lambast Democrat policies of the last couple of years.
I wish Obama would put forth his own plan, but I also wish the GOP was in any way capable of compromising. They've made it their top strategy to oppose Obama, no matter what. Why do you guys not see that this is simply a continuation of that publicly stated policy?
It's also comical to watch the roles reversed from the HCR debates of a couple years back. Back then, the GOP was not putting forth any concrete plan and merely taking pot-shots at the Democrat plan. We were told at the time by the GOP and posters on here that you don't really need a plan to say that another plan sucks. It seems that line of thinking has gone out the window with the belly-aching over the lack of an Obama plan. My how times have changed.
Not to mention that Boehner often cites the lack of an Obama plan, but has recently told the President that Congress makes the laws and he decides what he wants to sign. So does he really want an Obama plan at all if he's made it clear that coming up with the plans is the job of Congress?
Boehner is now scrambling because his plan lacks support and got gutted by the CBO. I'm assuming now the GOP will revert back to their previous statements that the CBO numbers don't really matter - even though they've used the CBO numbers to lambast Democrat policies of the last couple of years.
I wish Obama would put forth his own plan, but I also wish the GOP was in any way capable of compromising. They've made it their top strategy to oppose Obama, no matter what. Why do you guys not see that this is simply a continuation of that publicly stated policy?
ProdigalHorn
10,000+ Posts
Y
YoLaDu
Guest
Well i think Obama's positions/conditions are definitely a political CYA, but i totally understand why he would do it.
One, while advantageous not to have this be front and center during the campaign, it's equally advantageous for everyone that we don't go through this same dog and pony show (by both parties) again in 6 months. I don't most Americans want to watch this spectacle again any time soon. Nor does Moody's, Wall Street, the Chamber of Commerce, etc.
Two, putting deep cuts off is a CYA effort by Obama to not have the economy go in the dump next year due to said deep cuts. Guess who will get blamed for a double dip or worse? Good luckhaving to explain that the spending cuts are what caused it in the Fall of 2012. He signed on the dotted line, just like the GOP, but he is the President. He would take more of the blame, especially with 3 to 4 GOP candidates harping on it as nauseum every day next year.
While many would agree that the spending cuts is an overall long term good thing for our economic well being, in the short term they could be very painful. I don't see a lot of job creating occurring because we cut trillions of dollars in spending. Obama is looking to not have the pain occur in 2012, as he is up for re-election. Would be like a self inflicted gunshot, and the GOP handed him the gun.
excuse the violent metaphor.
One, while advantageous not to have this be front and center during the campaign, it's equally advantageous for everyone that we don't go through this same dog and pony show (by both parties) again in 6 months. I don't most Americans want to watch this spectacle again any time soon. Nor does Moody's, Wall Street, the Chamber of Commerce, etc.
Two, putting deep cuts off is a CYA effort by Obama to not have the economy go in the dump next year due to said deep cuts. Guess who will get blamed for a double dip or worse? Good luckhaving to explain that the spending cuts are what caused it in the Fall of 2012. He signed on the dotted line, just like the GOP, but he is the President. He would take more of the blame, especially with 3 to 4 GOP candidates harping on it as nauseum every day next year.
While many would agree that the spending cuts is an overall long term good thing for our economic well being, in the short term they could be very painful. I don't see a lot of job creating occurring because we cut trillions of dollars in spending. Obama is looking to not have the pain occur in 2012, as he is up for re-election. Would be like a self inflicted gunshot, and the GOP handed him the gun.
excuse the violent metaphor.
Ag with kids
2,500+ Posts
Well after re-writing his bill to go even further away from a compromise, Boehner "succeeded" in passing a DOA bill.
Where is all the hand wringing over this thing being rammed down the Democrats' throats on partisan lines after last-minute deals and rewrites that people didn't have more than a couple hours to read? Does that stuff just matter when it's the Democrats doing it? Frankly, I think it's just fine for him to do this and I hope Harry Reid does the same thing in the Senate, I just find it pretty ironic. I guess quick votes down partisan lines are ok now?
Where is all the hand wringing over this thing being rammed down the Democrats' throats on partisan lines after last-minute deals and rewrites that people didn't have more than a couple hours to read? Does that stuff just matter when it's the Democrats doing it? Frankly, I think it's just fine for him to do this and I hope Harry Reid does the same thing in the Senate, I just find it pretty ironic. I guess quick votes down partisan lines are ok now?
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