Sutherland Springs Shooting

[Horn6721]

One of the issues with the mentally ill homeless is they do not want help and there is no easy (for want if a better word) to get them help if they do not want it.. It is so sad.
There is a current story here in Dallas about an elderly homeless woman with mental problems, known to many. She refysed help that was offered over and over. She went mussing for several months. Was found in Ft Worth. No one knows how she got there.
But this is a separate issue. The guy yesterday was not homeless but he was known to be angry and had withdrawn.
What could gave been done with thus guy or the Vegas shorer to prevent what they did?

 

[bystander]

Mental healthcare challenges is a huge source of our homeless challenge. One statistic I read that as many as 75% of homeless have mental health problems.

All too often in these situations the extremes look for a silver bullet to solve the problem. For the gun rights and anti-gun activists it's more/less guns. As usual, any solution has be a multi-faceted solution, like mental health funding and background checks. I'd also throw in high capacity magazines but recognize that is controversial.

Sometimes it's interesting to hear the opinions of immigrants to our country. I know a man from India whose family runs some grocery marts. There was a persistent homeless person hanging out front for a stretch of time and the man from Inda told me the homeless man was stupid. He said it with contempt. He said that the homeless man's family had made multiple attempts to get him to move in with them but he refused and preferred to live on the streets. My friend made no mention of mental illness; it was just stupidity to him.

 

[bystander]

One of the issues with the mentally ill homeless is they do not want help and there is no easy (for want if a better word) to get them help if they do not want it.. It is so sad.
There is a current story here in Dallas about an elderly homeless woman with mental problems, known to many. She refysed help that was offered over and over. She went mussing for several months. Was found in Ft Worth. No one knows how she got there.
But this is a separate issue. The guy yesterday was not homeless but he was known to be angry and had withdrawn.
What could gave been done with thus guy or the Vegas shorer to prevent what they did?

That's just it... nobody has a real answer. Prayer in schools? I seriously doubt that would solve it. I suppose there might be some academic argument about the fear of retribution from a higher power but I just don't think that's it. Purported Christians sin left and right; maybe not killing people like this but isn't it odd that some consider the US to be blessed by God yet we are the greatest military power (in terms of $$$ and firepower) in the history of the world? Not exactly Jesus' message.

There's something else at play here.

 

[Htown77]

The guyyesterday was not homeless but he wasknown to be angry and had withdrawn.
What could gave been done with thus guyor the Vegas shorer to prevent what theydid?

For the guy yesterday, if it is true he really legally was not allowed to purchase, at least start by shoring up background checks and making it harder on him to buy a gun. If he was determined, he could get a gun anyway. However, there is a greater chance of prevention, delay or discovery by ensuring he has to take the time to find a shady dealer and cannot just walk right into Acadamy and get one quickly.

For quite a few of these shooters, there have been know mental health or gun buying issues. The Vegas guy seemed to fall in the Charles Whitman, may be impossible to stop, category. While we would all like 0 mass shootings, it is unlikely we’ll ever have that. The goal is to reduce back to one every two decades like with Whitman and not one every week like we have now. Some of these shootings have been preventable or at least could have been made more difficult to achieve. As Seattle said, it will require a multifaceted approach. The problem now is nothing gets done at all and we continue to go the wrong direction on mental health.

 

[Mr. Deez]

MrD can probably help on this but apparently the murderer was convicted of assault Not domestic assault which makes a difference in being able to buy a gun under federal law.

That's a damn good question, and I don't know the answer, so I decided to take a look. The relevant act is the Domestic Violence Offender Gun Ban (aka "Lautenberg Amendment"). The act prohibits someone from owning a gun who has been convicted "of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence."

Does that mean a specific crime tailored specifically toward domestic violence, or does it mean any violent offense committed against a spouse or family member regardless of how the statute at hand is worded? I think the language of the ban suggests that Congress intended the more liberal ("liberal" meaning broad, not political liberalism) application. I'm not aware of a court case directly deciding this issue. However, I did find this language from a very recent US Supreme Court case that decided another interesting issue, which is whether the ban applied to people convicted of a reckless form of domestic violence or only an intentional act. (Just FYI - the Court ruled that recklessness was enough. In a strange ruling, Justice Kagan wrote for the majority in an opinion joined by Alito, and Justice Thomas wrote a dissent joined by Sotomayor. Never would have expected that on a gun rights case.)

Here's the comment. "Congress enacted §922(g)(9) in 1996 to bar those domestic abusers convicted of garden-variety assault or battery misdemeanors—just like those convicted of felonies—from owning guns." Voisine v. United States. That tells me the Court would probably go with my interpretation that simple assault in a domestic context would be enough to trigger the ban.

Again, extremely good and nuanced question.

 

[Seattle Husker]

I can't help but think what would have happened if this guy walked into the church carrying a hunting rifle, revolver or even had a limited ammo clip. Nearly all of the mass shooters in the last decade have carried a variant of an AR-15. This dude had a Ruger AR-556 and 2 pistols (Glock and Ruger).

 

[Joe Fan]

Some applicable code --
18 USC § 922(g)(1) and 922(g)(9)
Banning felons and domestic violence misdemeanants from firearms

The twist with 922(g)(9) is that "crime of domestic violence" under federal law does not cover all DV crimes under state laws.

 

[Joe Fan]

JF wonder why the Air Force did not charge him with domestic assault. Or maybe there is no provision for domestic assault in the UMJC?
just assault

I dont know the answer to that one. Maybe we have an ex-JAG here?

added later
AF calling it "bureaucratic error" which allowed shooter to buy gun

 

[Htown77]

AF calling it "bureaucratic error" which allowed shooter to buy gun

Dylann Roof got a gun due to a “bureaucratic error”. At what point do we examine these errors and try to shore up checks for people who cannot legally buy guns under existing laws? This should be a non-partisan, no brainer and, yes, even NRA approved reaction in response to this shooting.

 

[Joe Fan]

Dylann Roof got a gun due to a “bureaucratic error”. At what point do we examine these errors and try to shore up checks for people who cannot buy guns under existing laws?

Another big issue is straw buyers (often a 'girlfriend'). I think the law is already there to crack down on them already but its rarely done.

 

[Htown77]

Another big issue is straw buyers (often a 'girlfriend'). I think the law is already there to crack down on them already but its rarely done.

Every hurdle is better than nothing.

 

[mchammer]

I do think the lack of insane asylums has pushed more of these people onto the streets. Of course, outside of the Aurora shooter (+ maybe the Newtown guy) who was seeing a shrink, I'm not sure the other mass shooters had any tell tale signs that they were unstable. Certainly the LV shooter didn't.

No time to look up mental health funding but I believe it's a shell of its former funding. The number of "mental health" hospitals across the country is a fraction of what they were in prior decades. Of course, this also may be due to changes in mental health treatments towards medication and inclusion.

Last sentence for sure. Saw a tweet that said Dems led charge to lessen institutionalization. I agree with previous poster who says every hurdle helps.

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

Dylann Roof got a gun due to a “bureaucratic error”. At what point do we examine these errors and try to shore up checks for people who cannot legally buy guns under existing laws? This should be a non-partisan, no brainer and, yes, even NRA approved reaction in response to this shooting.

At what point do we admit that bureaucrats are generally incompetent and not worth the money we spend on them?

 

[Crockett]

The NRA legislative agenda, implemented by cowering lawmakers, is to deny technology,coordinated databases and ability to do extra scrutiny to gun sellers whose products show up repeatedly in street crime. Yet they demand instant background checks so no gun sale is thwarted by buyer's remorse. Then they ***** about the incompetence of the bureaucrats they have hamstrung.

 

[bystander]

At what point do we admit that bureaucrats are generally incompetent and not worth the money we spend on them?

Well, the law was/is on the books and bureaucratic incompetency will always be with us. At least the law is there. I don't think any obstructionist tactics by the NRA caused the failure to record the necessary information in the database.

 

[Clean]

I heard on the radio that the Air Force admits they didn't submit Kelly's record to the national crime database. So, when Academy sent in a background check request, it came back clean.

Air Force has asked Inspector General to investigate what broke down. Communication between various law enforcement agencies has always been shoddy at best.

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/air-force-didnt-submit-texas-church-shooters-criminal-history-to-fbi/

The guy was guilty of everything from child abuse (fractured step child's skull) to animal cruelty and still he was allowed to purchase an arsenal.

He fired over 450 rounds on Sunday. That's a huge amount of ammo. It's amazing anyone survived.

 

[bystander]

A friend here at work mentioned that the State of Texas denied his concealed gun license application because their database and standards caught it. Also, did he plead down his domestic violence to assault? If so we now see how a plea deal can water down the punishment and what society needs to see happen.

One thing I will say; I've worked with military bases in my career (we were contracted by them to do work on the base) and we had constant billing and contractual problems. VERY SLOPPY and that's being kind.

 

[Crockett]

Gee I wonder why coordination of state, federal and military data bases that feed the background checks are enfeebled and uncoordinated? Is it a lack of focus and attention, resources, imagination? It couldn't be that it was designed to be enfeebled and uncoordinated?

 

[Htown77]

The NRA legislative agenda, implemented by cowering lawmakers, is to deny technology,coordinated databases and ability to do extra scrutiny to gun sellers whose products show up repeatedly in street crime. Yet they demand instant background checks so no gun sale is thwarted by buyer's remorse. Then they ***** about the incompetence of thebureaucrats they have hamstrung.

I do not know whether the NRA did this or not. I do know from my previous experience with lobbying on the state level that special interests do influence the budget to deny adequate resources to agencies they do not like so what Crockett says is indeed possible.

Regardless, this shooing and the Dylan Roof shooting demonstrate our background check system needs to be reviewed and improved. People like Roof and this shooter, who legally cannot purchase a gun, should not pop up as “okay” when attempting to purchase a gun from a law abiding seller.

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

Gee I wonder why coordination of state, federal and military data bases that feed the background checks are enfeebled and uncoordinated? Is it a lack of focus and attention, resources, imagination? It couldn't be that it was designed to be enfeebled and uncoordinated?

Have you EVER seen a well coordinated, sleek, efficient bureaucratic operation? The VA? The Post Office? The IRS?

Of course you haven't, because those things simply do not exist. Get your head out of your *** and stop dreaming up fantasies of NRA inspired puppetmasters pulling invisible strings to make the government lackeys dance. It is far beneath your intelligence level.

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

I do not know whether the NRA did this or not. I do know from my previous experience with lobbying on the state level that special interests do influence the budget to deny adequate resources to agencies they do not like so what Crockett says is indeed possible.

Regardless, this shooing and the Dylan Roof shooting demonstrate our background check system needs to be reviewed and improved. People like Roof and this shooter, who legally cannot purchase a gun, should not pop up as “okay” when attempting to purchase a gun from a law abiding seller.

If the USAF bureaucrats had not fumbled the ball, he would have popped up as "not okay". It's not a matter of more regulations, it is a matter of gross inefficiency derived ultimately from asking the federal government to do things it was never meant to do.

 

[Crockett]

Our bureaucratic system won WWII, the Cold War and provides a terrific interstate highway system. If background checks ran as efficiently as the postal service, you would not see me complaining.

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

The nature of our government in the 40s is in no way comparable to the nature of the suck coming out of DC today.

 

[Horn6721]

Thank you MrD
That is why we keep you around.

Croc??
This confused me.
" Yet they demand instant background checks so no gun sale is thwarted by buyer's remorse. "
if i read the Texas Buyers remorse law, Chapter 39 correctly, it reads like most other states. Buyer's remorse does not apply to guns purchased at retail stores like Academy etc
here
"Chapter 39 of the Texas Business and Commerce Code prohibits "buyer's remorse" refunds in all but a handful of circumstances. Retailers such as automobile salesmen and store merchants are not obligated to let you out of a contract or return your money if you change your mind about buying a product."

So saying the NRA demanded instant background checks for the purpose of thwarting buyer's remorse does not seem accurate.
The only exception to that is if it was bought at a gun show.' But we all know about the infamous gun show loop hole so that make it moot, right?

 

[ShAArk92]

I heard on the radio that the Air Force admits they didn't submit Kelly's record

Irrelevant.

This presumes the law prohibiting possession is righteous. Clearly it’s not effective.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Our bureaucratic system won WWII, the Cold War and provides a terrific interstate highway system. If background checks ran as efficiently as the postal service, you would not see me complaining.

Background checks are complicated. Here are some broad statistics on gun background checks. It should be noted that Trump signed a change to the law that previously prevented those with mental illnesses from obtaining a gun.

 

[ShAArk92]

Background checks are complicated

And ineffective. <1% of NICS since inception has resulted in sentencing.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Irrelevant.

This presumes the law prohibiting possession is righteous. Clearly it’s not effective.

Not sure I understand. Are you saying the law preventing those convicted of Domestic Violence from passing the background check is not effective? If so, I'm not sure the law is the problem but rather the operational processes of getting those convicted onto a national list for easy detection within the NICS program.

 

[Seattle Husker]

And ineffective. <1% of NICS since inception has resulted in sentencing.

Sentencing?

 

[ShAArk92]

Yes. A whopping 4.x were convicted ... and just under 1% have been sentenced ... the completion of Justice, right?