Sutherland Springs Shooting

[ProdigalHorn]

Frankly, I don't recall any white male mass shooter shouting out, "In the name of Jesus Christ" as he killed people, but maybe that's just me.

The left misunderstands - and I think in some cases honestly - the difference between being a disciple of Christ and what I would consider "cultural Christianity." The fact that someone's family attended or attends worship service of some sort, or the fact that a person at one point was part of a religious group in some tangental way qualifies them for being "Christian" for many people, including a lot of Christians.

In most cultures, religion is attached to nationality in some way, and we've tried to attach Christianity with American culture for a long time. That's not how it was ever supposed to work. Whether it sounds like the "No true Scottsman" falacy or not, it's a fact that no disciple of Christ would ever be inspired to kill innocents in the name of religion based on actual teachings of Jesus. That's like arguing that a health food guru who says we should stop eating hamburgers is to blame for someone burning down a Whataburger. (Actually that analogy doesn't really fit the argument I just made, but it's still a good analogy in other contexts of this discussion, so I'm leaving it in.)

They don't believe in the power of prayer, so they view it as a waste. Furthermore, they imply that the person praying doesn't really or certainly shouldn't believe it has any real use.

Again, they don't get how prayer works, and many Christians don't, either. Praying after something like this isn't about stopping these acts from happening. The Bible is pretty clear that bad people will always do bad things, and God is not going to step in and keep us from killing each other if that's what we decide to do.

Christian prayers after a tragedy are for strength to maintain our faith, to be comforted, to keep serving God, to ask God to help those survivors.

We really can shore up background check laws. The issue with Dylann Roof was whoever was doing the background check approved him even though he was flagged in the system.

I'd definitely be open to doing a comprehensive study on how these guns are being obtained, and why the approval process seems to be failing. But that requires actual work, time, and thought. It's easier to yell stuff and pass more laws.

 

[ShAArk92]

I am not sure about the idea that we have shootings because we are not taxed enough.

Mine was a response to @Crockett earlier in the thread.

I agree with you, though, @Joe Fan ... and seeing your graphic is troublesome ... and only underscores the need for all of us to be ready to defend ourselves.

 

[ShAArk92]

The left misunderstands - and I think in some cases honestly - the difference between being a disciple of Christ and what I would consider "cultural Christianity."

OK .. sorry for the "full auto" response rate ... but I have to AMEN this statement right here before I read further!

I read @Hollandtx post to which you replied and this bothered me a bit ... unsure how to response.

You jacked it outta the park, PH! Thanks.

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[Htown77]

I have seen it reported that he walked into academy and bought a gun without an issue. If that is true and what Abbott has said is true, our background check system is comically bad and being implemented half-a**. There is clear room from improvement, because that is not just “slipping through the cracks.”

 

[Joe Fan]

....I agree with you, though, @Joe Fan ... and seeing your graphic is troublesome ... and only underscores the need for all of us to be ready to defend ourselves.

Story on that from Marcy Miller (I think this was in AZ) --

I've shared this story here before, but it's time to re-up it. It's unbelievable. When I was a watch commander, we had a shooting call on the northern edge of the city. Everyone ran hot to it. An out-of-state predator had targeted a family.

The suspect had contacted the father about an RV they had for sale. When he arrived, he looked at the RV and lured the father into a vulnerable position behind the RV. He then slit the father's throat.

The suspect didn't kill the father, though. The father had small children and a wife present. The father fought back. The fight was hellacious. It ended up inside the house. There, the father was able to get hold of his gun.

The father shot and killed the suspect. It turns out the suspect had duct tape and other kidnap items with him. He'd apparently planned on abducting the children. Thank God the father had a gun and was committed to saving himself and his family.

I was really, really, REALLY glad that citizen had a gun. You may have your own experiences. Fine. But I'm an advocate for being able to protect yourself and your family and friends - or even strangers.​

 

[Clean]

This atrocity will stir up the gun control argument again. But, people who think it's simply a matter of gun control are missing the bigger question.

This is the third mass killing in 40 days. Mass killings used to be extremely rare. After Whitman climbed the UT tower and gunned down all those folks in 1966, it was years before it happened again. Maybe all the way to the 1980s when a guy walked into a McDonald's restaurant in southern California and killed 21. Now it's every couple of weeks! Since guns have always been readily available in most parts of the U.S. and there have always been deranged people, you have to ask yourself why is this happening now?

Excluding the NYC killings, which was motivated by religious extremism. Why are home grown Americans, like Devin Kelley and the Vegas shooter, deciding to take dozens of innocent lives? It's got to be a symptom of our modern culture. I've heard people suggest the hyper-violent video games kids grow up playing and the violence in today's movies and even some of the music.

A friend of mine attended Austin City Limit Festival this year. One of the "acts" was a rapper, Ice-somebody, whose rap included the line "kill the MF-ing cops, kill the MF-ing cops", over and over. My buddy said all the young white people, who made up most of the audience, were dancing and yelling "kill the MF-ing cops"! He came away disgusted with what he saw and heard.

Perhaps the secular society that America is becoming is also partially to blame. If there is no final reckoning, there is no price to pay other than death.

Some blame the country's political polarization. We saw plenty of sentiment on social media after the Vegas massacre about country music folk being Republicans, so it served them right.

One thing is for certain, these are dark times and we need more than stricter gun control measures.

 

[Crockett]

There's ample aid to be declared mentally unfit. There's also ample treatment/research being done ...

If it's ample it's changed since I was close to an afflicted family. Perhaps I need to do some research.

 

[Brad Austin]

Weaponized media has a big hand in provoking violence to all new levels. Poking the bear with atrocious claims like these every single day...

POTUS committed treason and colluded with Russia
Reps plan to kill millions with their healthcare bill
Police are shooting unarmed blacks at an alarming rate
WH is stocked with white supremacists

The list goes on and on. Unstable people are becoming weaponized by these horrendous, false claims. They hear these over and over and begin to believe taking action is justified at their core to stop the evil.

The media has even politicized abortion so much they have women publicly boasting about killing multiple unborn babies as a badge of honor.

Whether one believes in abortion or not, behavior like that is despicable. 10 years ago that was unheard of and abortion was a discreet, uncomfortably emotional experience.

There's no doubt we can chalk up multiple ambushed cop deaths to the media. Dallas police felt that firsthand.

 

[Joe Fan]

Weaponized media has a big hand in provoking violence to all new levels. ....

Theyve normalized violence - at least against Trump supporters, or people they think are Trump supporters
Never raising a voice against the idea it is OK to punch someone in the face with whom you disagree
Never raising a voice against the idea that it is OK to prevent someone with whom you disagree from speaking at all

Where did they think this would end?
I suggest they knew exactly where it would end -- it ended where they hoped it would - in violence

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[ShAArk92]

If it's ample it's changed since I was close to an afflicted family.

I'm sorry to hear you have personal experience with this ... It's in our family and we are doing our best to care for this person ... but it's not the government's job, frankly, and if we make it so, the declaration of mentally unfit is RIPE for political shenanigans. Never mind proper care is a term which is also RELATIVE to what is deemed acceptable based upon the perceived need of government.

Ample is probably a term relative to our degree of accepting government acting beyond its scope, but I find, too there is a tendency among the mental health/social work community to emphasize, if not over state, the budget level committed to these processes. Is it any wonder why?

How many would welcome their invested career be reduced? (See IRS) regardless of its propriety?

Again, the bottom line is ... how much freedom are you willing to personally sacrifice for a pursuit which will not realized the stated goal?

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[Phil Elliott]

Armed citizens taking down this lunatic murderer - probably not a part of the story the media will spend much time on.

 

[Htown77]

One thing is for certain, these are dark times and we need more than stricter gun control measures.

I agree.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/112...-were-40-years-ago-the-numbers-are-surprising

I have no idea what bustle.com is, but I remembered reading awhile back serial killers are down and mass shootings are up. This article discusses that and was the first thing that came up when I googled the topic. I am wondering if that may be what has happened and that people who would have been serial killers 30 years ago are now mass shooters today.

The FBI became very good at profiling and catching serial killers. I wonder if it is possible to profile these mass shooters. It may not be possible to stop them ahead of time, but it is an interesting thought.

I agree with Clean in wondering what is causing these mass shooters. Like with serial killers, race is not a factor. The racial makeup of mass shooters and serial killers have both been proportional to the racial makeup of this country. It is not simply about politics. Mass shooters have come from all creeds (and at this point fingering a mass shooter as a democrat or republican is silly because you can find examples of both). Something has changed to cause a rise in the prevalence of mass shooters. Personally, I think it is interesting it correlates with the decline of serial killers. I hope that the FBI or an academic is profiling these people to figure out what they have in common. Serial killers have similar profiles across race, religion or creed. By guess is the same may be true of mass shooters.

(I am not going into radical islamic terrorism here. While I think terrorists are also deranged, radical terror carried out in the name of islam is a separate, international issue that is different from America’s domestic, mass shooting issue... though I have no doubt terrorists and mass shooters have at least some mental health problems in common. We have been working since 9/11 on stopping jacka**es who, for their own political purposes, have been convincing the mentally deranged among muslims to commit terrorism. Like I said, shutting down those jacka**es is a sepeare issue.)

 

[Seattle Husker]

Hero.

 

[Horn6721]

MrD can probably help on this but apparently the murderer was convicted of assault Not domestic assault which makes a difference in being able to buy a gun under federal law. He had a BCD Not a DD which also makes a difference.
Plus he apparently served time so how it was ok according to federal law I do not understand.
He apparently lied on the app at Academy. This would not be Academy's fault as they would have submitted his app to Feds for approval. The seller does not do the vetting.
So if he was cleared by feds to buy gun it is on the feds.
Abbott stated he was NOT cleared for a CCL.

 

[Joe Fan]

Some applicable code --

18 USC § 922(g)(1) and 922(g)(9)
Banning felons and domestic violence misdemeanants from firearms

 

[Horn6721]

JF wonder why the Air Force did not charge him with domestic assault.
Or maybe there is no provision for domestic assault in the UMJC?
just assault

 

[Garmel]

I'm not sure how effective more gun control will work. My brother, who was a career criminal in his youth, legally couldn't get a gun had no problem getting one for his next job.

 

[Crockett]

Armed citizens taking down this lunatic murderer - probably not a part of the story the media will spend much time on.

I saw the same guy interviewed on ABC's Good Morning America. Maybe the media elite is not so disengaged from the rest of us as you might imagine.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Looks like a case of Domestic Violence. The Mother-in-law was a member of the church albeit was not in attendance yesterday.

He also reportedly took his own life.

 

[Htown77]

Looks like a case of Domestic Violence. The Mother-in-law was a member of the church albeit was not in attendance yesterday

Maybe my serial killer thought was meaningless. I guess the question is, what is making Americans with mental health issues who are frustrated with family, friends, employer, etc suddenly think taking their frustrations out on churches, nightclubs, malls, concerts, movie theaters, etc is an option? I do not have an answer.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Maybe my serial killer thought was meaningless. I guess the question is, what is making Americans with mental health issues who are frustrated with family, friends, employer, etc suddenly think taking their frustrations out on churches, nightclubs, malls, concerts, movie theaters, etc is an option? I do not have an answer.

Yeah...suddenly when a crazy dude has a disagreement with someone it has become "OK" to take out their rage on innocent bystanders. I'm starting to think we may have too much freedom, as was mentioned by Shark.

 

[bystander]

Yeah...suddenly when a crazy dude has a disagreement with someone it has become "OK" to take out their rage on innocent bystanders. I'm starting to think we may have too much freedom, as was mentioned by Shark.

I was thinking that very thing... but as soon as we start talking about taking care of the crazies (not waiting until they do something) then the arguments begin. Just this morning I saw a guy without a shirt on pushing his cart full of clothes next to Mopac on the sidewalk and he was screaming. Nobody was around.

 

[mchammer]

Bring back the insane asylums. The people on the highways? They will eventually be killed by a car. People who threaten violence on social media ought to be investigated like parents who are suspected of child abuse. I bet it will cut down incivility on the internet by a lot.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Bring back the insane asylums. The people on the highways? They will eventually be killed by a car. People who threaten violence on social media ought to be investigated like parents who are suspected of child abuse. I bet it will cut down incivility on the internet by a lot.

I do think the lack of insane asylums has pushed more of these people onto the streets. Of course, outside of the Aurora shooter (+ maybe the Newtown guy) who was seeing a shrink, I'm not sure the other mass shooters had any tell tale signs that they were unstable. Certainly the LV shooter didn't.

No time to look up mental health funding but I believe it's a shell of its former funding. The number of "mental health" hospitals across the country is a fraction of what they were in prior decades. Of course, this also may be due to changes in mental health treatments towards medication and inclusion.

 

[Htown77]

If shoring up background checks stops a shooter or two, it is worth it. If adequately funding our mental healthcare system stops a shooter or two it is also worth it. I have a feeling those two actions would do more than stop just a few though. You’ll never stop them all. There will always be a Charles Whitman. However, I think those are two places we can start to make turn these mass shootings into few and far between rather than a weekly occurrence.

I will also note, a lot or other violent crime can probably be correlated to the lack of mental healthcare funding. Look at the homeless man that raped and killed the girl at UT. Letting our mental health system fall into such a state of disrepair has been very unwise.

 

[Seattle Husker]

If shoring up background checks stops a shooter or two, it is worth it. If adequately funding our mental healthcare system stops a shooter or two it is also worth it. I have a feeling those two actions would do more than stop just a few though. You’ll never stop them all. There will always be a Charles Whitman. However, I think those are two places we can start to make turn these mass shootings into few and far between rather than a weekly occurrence.

I will also note, a lot or other violent crime can probably be correlated to the lack of mental healthcare funding. Look at the homeless man that raped and killed the girl at UT. Letting our mental health system fall into such a state of disrepair has been very unwise.

Mental healthcare challenges is a huge source of our homeless challenge. One statistic I read that as many as 75% of homeless have mental health problems.

All too often in these situations the extremes look for a silver bullet to solve the problem. For the gun rights and anti-gun activists it's more/less guns. As usual, any solution has be a multi-faceted solution, like mental health funding and background checks. I'd also throw in high capacity magazines but recognize that is controversial.