Shooting

[ProdigalHorn]

I think they'd let me stay a lot longer before even approaching me. Why? Because I'd "look important." In addition, I don't think I'd get, "Sir, you need to leave if you're not going to order something" for quite awhile. I think I'd get a lot of, "Sir, is there something I can get for you?" And I think my response would get a lot of deference. If I said, "Not right now, ma'am. I'm waiting for somebody," I think I'd get, "well, let me know if I can get something for you." I might eventually be asked to leave, but I could drag that out for a long time.

I would imagine so - which begs the question with these guys. How long were they there? Did someone say "would you like something?" And they responded "No we're just waiting for someone." And an hour later they're still hanging around. That's why I hate situations like this because we're trying to judge it based on the account of the guys who are mad about the whole thing to begin with. They're not going to start off by saying "So we'd been sitting in there for two hours, crowded place, they asked us nicely if we wanted anything and we said no, and so they finally asked us after an hour to order something..."

 

[Mr. Deez]

I've been asked to leave a pancake house after I used it to do some paperwork. I was a paying customer, (pancakes, yum) and had tipped the waitress $30 since I had hogged a table for a couple of hours.
Never once did I think to call the police, or get angry. In fact, all I felt was kind of sheepish for being asked politely to leave. I assumed the staff wanted to vacuum, re-fill salt/pepper shakers, syrup, etc.

It's a little different. Your entire culture isn't drilling into you that anytime somebody makes any kind of imposition on you, no mater how reasonable, he or she is doing it for no reason other than an unjustified and irrational contempt for you based solely on an arbitrary characteristic. For decades, we've been teaching black people to assume the very worst of intentions in this kind of situation, and of course, when they approach police with those assumptions, it costs lives. It's dangerous.

I have no idea what transpired prior to the police arriving, or, how the black customers treated the police once they arrived.

Most likely they were initially asked kindly if they planned to order something, and when they said they weren't going to, they were probably politely told they'd have to leave. At that point, I'm sure things escalated. Why else call the cops?

The saddest thing is how quickly Starbucks caved and gave them the royal treatment. This opens the door to all so

Who's going to Starbucks? It's not rednecks from Hutto or Bastrop. It's hipsters and pretentious white liberals who would rather be convicted of murder than to be associated with even alleged racism. It's the people who like the Chick-fil-A article. Starbucks is already often thought of as being "too corporate" for those people. If you add racism to that, it'll definitely hurt the company. From a PR standpoint, they need to react swiftly, and unless these guys pulled a gun on somebody or threatened to, they shouldn't try to defend themselves. And of course, be prepared to write out a check to these guys. They're going to sue, and Starbucks will pay them off.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I would imagine so - which begs the question with these guys. How long were they there? Did someone say "would you like something?" And they responded "No we're just waiting for someone." And an hour later they're still hanging around. That's why I hate situations like this because we're trying to judge it based on the account of the guys who are mad about the whole thing to begin with. They're not going to start off by saying "So we'd been sitting in there for two hours, crowded place, they asked us nicely if we wanted anything and we said no, and so they finally asked us after an hour to order something..."

This is where an honest media is supposed to come into play. I don't know if these guys are giving interviews or not, but if they are, the media should be asking them detailed questions about the incident. Furthermore, they should be talking to other customers, the cops who were called, etc. My guess is that these accusers are getting the "David Hogg treatment" and that nobody who would present controverting facts is getting a platform.

 

[bystander]

Last year my 7th grade daughter "studied" (in quotes because I think they snap-chatted quite a bit or that's my hunch) for her finals with a friend at a Starbucks in Austin for at least three hours. She did buy some mocha frap thing when she arrived and maybe one other. I suppose that as long as you buy something you can hang out as long as you like. If you walk in and just sit or stand without ordering it might seem a bit odd. If I were the manager and was compelled due to being a stickler at times for rules I might have just asked if they needed help or anything; possibly as a way to see if in fact they were waiting for someone. I don't know if I would have told them to leave. I didn't read the entire article so I don't know how much time had elapsed.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Disclaimer: I worked for Starbucks corporate previously.

Based on the media reports, I'm sure overreaction to this incident is occurring on all sides. The Store Manager has either quit or been placed on leave (seen both reported). What we don't know is what led up to this call, not just from these 2 men but prior months. Were there incidents in the past that contributed to this manager's actions? Maybe they have a major problem with homeless people squatting. Alas, nobody waits to find out the details in a social media frenzied world. Everyone had made up their mind of whether Starbucks is racist or not before caring about the context.

 

[ShAArk92]

Were there incidents in the past that contributed to this manager's actions?

there was an incident with another? Philly Starbucks where a couple of cops entered to use the bathroom (following an incident they worked nearby?) ... was asked to leave.

It may have happened, but I don’t recall the entire franchise of Starbucks being closed to train personnel how to deal with police officers.

Great questions above, SH. I’ve been asking the same thing of a couple friends who’ve lost their cohesiveness over this event ... no response. Just more “white privilege.”

It’s sad. How easily manipulated is most of our population.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Believe it or not, it is possible for a public sector union to do something right and even courageous. Link.

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[Clean]

There's a school shooting today in Texas. 8-10 reported killed in Santa Fe, Tex. (Houston area). Alleged shooter taken alive as well as another person of interest.

Plus, some nut job tries to shoot up one of Trump's properties. Five police injured. Shooter taken alive.

It is a crazy damn world isn't it?

 

[Driver 8]

I had hoped all those thoughts and prayers would be working by now

 

[Horns11]

Bill O'Reilly will continue to be correct for the foreseeable future. Mass shootings are the price of freedom.

 

[Garmel]

It wasn't an AR-15 so i wonder what the excuse will be now.

 

[theiioftx]

Sawed off shotgun and explosive devices. Both already outlawed. My guess is there were missed signs again pointing to mental illness.

 

[Clean]

It wasn't an AR-15 so i wonder what the excuse will be now.

It will be what the Left really wants, for ALL guns to be banned.

I wonder what this kid's motive will be:

1) girl friend dumped him
2) family doesn't understand him
3) ISIS sympathizer
4) Wanted to be like Nicholas Cruz

 

[Horns11]

Governor says it was a legal shotgun and .38 revolver acquired from his dad.

Kid posted stuff on social media that glorified the Nazi Iron Cross and the Japanese kamikaze symbol on a duster.

 

[Seattle Husker]

It wasn't an AR-15 so i wonder what the excuse will be now.

Parents haven't even been alerted yet that their child won't be at dinner and the politicization of the event has already started.

 

[Garmel]

Parents haven't even been alerted yet that their child won't be at dinner and the politicization of the event has already started.

Your side has already started it (look above me). Of course you didn't notice that part did you?

 

[Seattle Husker]

Your side has already started it (look above me). Of course you didn't notice that part did you?

I don't have a side. Protecting our children shouldn't be a team sport.

 

[Garmel]

I don't have a side. Protecting our children shouldn't be a team sport.

Before you make snarky remarks at me perhaps you should look what was said before I got involved. Don't target me unless you target others as well. Got it?

 

[Seattle Husker]

...when you practice the same behavior, deal? Have you called out your own "side" lately? Ever?

On a serious less snarky note, jumping right to the political talking points when these children are likely still laying where they died shows a lack empathy, don't you think? There is plenty of time for that debate later, even tomorrow, when we all have more information. We know time and again that much of the news that comes out during the chaos ends up being incorrect.

 

[Garmel]

...when you practice the same behavior, deal?

Deal

 

[Garmel]

...when you practice the same behavior, deal? Have you called out your own "side" lately? Ever?

On here? I think it was just once. IRL? Quite a few times. Obama is a Manchurian candidate/born in Kenya/was a foreign student at Columbia types of nonsense, Putin worshiping during Obama's term, false flag operations. Stuff like that.

 

[Htown77]

We know time and again that much of the news that comes out during the chaos ends up being incorrect.

Very true. The Orlando reporting debacle is exhibit A that it is best to wait at least day to get all the facts before trusting anything... probably need more than day with the media's poor reporting.

 

[theiioftx]

The schools need to be under similar security that airports utilize and employ veterans who are unemployed as armed guards.

No amount of additional gun legislation is going to stop the problem.

 

[bystander]

Sigh... another shooting. We are living in some horrible times my friends.

I went to see The Cult and Lenny Kravitz a long time ago in Dallas. They had metal detectors at the arena. It can be done at schools too. I think it may be something we must accept and pursue. But we have to man them and be ready when they go off. It's the new normal. We did it at the airports. What's more important? Travel or our kids. We have the money but I think it has to be a federal solution. The small poor districts can't fund it. Or do we just accept it as part of life and death?

The will to kill seems to have been unleashed. I don't know that we can eliminate the problem. The problem of bullying must be a part of the solution. But it seems so many parents refuse to be part of the solution when it is their child who is the bully.

What about mental illness? I don't know where we are on that. Medicate or remove from society? Both? Federal funding? Who determines if they are not a threat to society or themselves?

Gun control? Supposedly he used a legal shotgun and a handgun. Not a scary looking rapid fire weapon. A hand gun with a clip (and several more in a pocket) can do the damage of a rapid fire weapon. I am for databases, licenses and transaction paperwork similar to the title transfer of a car. But a crazy person bent on murder can use a truck. Or a trip wire bomb. Or a knife.

Then we have the political climate and social media. The hatred is off the charts. I truly can't believe the hatred towards Trump. And I know that people hated Obama. I don't hate either one. I don't think either one is evil. Just different. To me, Obama exuded empathy when attempting to solve problems while Trump exudes an "enough is enough" type of problem solving style. I think both styles are needed to a certain extent. Obama was careful not to offend and Trump doesn't have time for that. I wish people were tougher minded and not in need of reassurance all the time. Regardless, there is too much vitriol and the crazies are being fed by it all.

Who can fix the human mind?

 

[Htown77]

Excellent post Bystander. These mass shooting are symptoms of serious societal problems, and I am not sure that anyone or any one side quite has a grasp on it.

I am not defending bullying or coming out against gun regulation of any kind, but we had bullying and guns 50 years ago and this did not happen frequently. While I think a multi-faceted (involving mental health, guns, bullying, etc) short term solution is needed to combat the immediate problem, long term we need to figure out what is causing so many people to go nutty or why so many nuts are choosing this path all of a sudden. So far the only thing I have seen society do in response to a mass shooting was call for and remove confederate monuments... which achieved absolutely nothing in regards to the mass shooting problem and was an incredibly silly solution.

 

[theiioftx]

I believe today’s video games, which many young people are literally addicted to, play a role in these shootings.

 

[Seattle Husker]

I believe today’s video games, which many young people are literally addicted to, play a role in these shootings.

I disagree. My money is on depression. I'd be curious to understand how many of these shooters are diagnosed with the depression and on medication vs. how many simply aren't diagnosed.

 

[bystander]

I disagree. My money is on depression. I'd be curious to understand how many of these shooters are diagnosed with the depression and on medication vs. how many simply aren't diagnosed.

I knew a lady who was definitely depressed. She was married to my brother. He eventually had to leave her. She was sucking him into the vortex. I don't know if she took medication as I never asked him. He didn't like talking about it. He said she wouldn't (couldn't) work and didn't want kids. She would sleep all day and curl up in the fetal position after any argument for hours. He was a damn saint to stay with her as long as he did. He had known her since Junior High. So finally he cracked. We wondered if she was going to commit suicide. But she didn't. She instead hired an attorney and went for her half of EVERYTHING that he earned. She didn't do anything. She's still out there somewhere but we don't think she is a threat like these young boys are. It's a strange disease.

 

[bystander]

Excellent post Bystander. These mass shooting are symptoms of serious societal problems, and I am not sure that anyone or any one side quite has a grasp on it.

I am not defending bullying or coming out against gun regulation of any kind, but we had bullying and guns 50 years ago and this did not happen frequently. While I think a multi-faceted (involving mental health, guns, bullying, etc) short term solution is needed to combat the immediate problem, long term we need to figure out what is causing so many people to go nutty or why so many nuts are choosing this path all of a sudden. So far the only thing I have seen society do in response to a mass shooting was call for and remove confederate monuments... which achieved absolutely nothing in regards to the mass shooting problem and was an incredibly silly solution.

I hear you. I lived in South Texas for years and all my friends are big-time hunters and have had an "arsenal" (as a Liberal would define; they'd also call my friends gun fetishists). But there hasn't been one murder like this; only a very tragic hunting accident that occurred involving two high school boys I knew very well back in 1973 or so. Also at least three suicides. People openly carried their rifles in the gun rack and my memory is telling me that they stayed in those racks when they went to school. Something has definitely changed. It's mental. I keep calling it, "the will to kill." The dam has broken. Somehow that has become the thing to do.