Post Moderate looniness here
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Facing Addiction
1,000+ Posts
Someone's been reading my tax posts on Hornfans.....
Now we just need an unpaid intern to read and interpret the 132 pages for us. Deez????
untitled (house.gov) - Fair Tax 2023
Now we just need an unpaid intern to read and interpret the 132 pages for us. Deez????
untitled (house.gov) - Fair Tax 2023
I was slow to figure out this evening, that your fav Lib host, Don Lemon, formerly of CNN, is a gay version of Erkel from Family Matters...
Obviously, I'm not going to read all that, but it looks like a 23 percent national sales tax. Personally, I'd go for that in principle. However, I would never support a national sales tax unless and until the 16th Amendment is repealed AND that a federal income tax is expressly prohibited. If you don't do that, then you'll eventually have both, as they have in many states and in Europe (though theirs is technically a VAT).
It's high, but I'm pretty sure this dumps not only the income tax but also the FICA.
But if you think that's high, imagine paying an income tax, a 20 percent VAT, about a $2.35 per gallon gasoline tax, a pretty stout property tax, and $300 per vehicle per year in "road tax." That's what people here pay. You can see why the Beatles did a song about it.
Not clear to me if companies have to match any of that like they do for SS and Medicare. If not, you are likely to get a 5-7% raise too.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Sales tax is actually the only kind of tax that can have any theoretical legitimacy. All other tax is a form of theft. Property tax is soft feudalism, rent to the government to stay on your land. Income tax is soft slavery, partial ownership of your labor output.
Sales tax is purely voluntary. Of course it still increases the price of goods but you get to decide which you buy and which you don't
Sales tax is purely voluntary. Of course it still increases the price of goods but you get to decide which you buy and which you don't
Facing Addiction
1,000+ Posts
Couple of things....
That 23% replaces ALL personal and corporate federal taxes, not just income tax. It does leave the import tax in place. The bill includes a repeal of the 16th amendment. It also includes a pre-bate to offset the hit to those living at or below the poverty level. (I didn't read enough on the pre-bate to see how it would affect those near the poverty level.)
That 23% replaces ALL personal and corporate federal taxes, not just income tax. It does leave the import tax in place. The bill includes a repeal of the 16th amendment. It also includes a pre-bate to offset the hit to those living at or below the poverty level. (I didn't read enough on the pre-bate to see how it would affect those near the poverty level.)
So? Let them howl.
Long ago, Rush Limbaugh outlined all the ways Americans are taxed. Off the top of my head I can think of Fed, State, Local County & City, Education, Sales, Estate, Property, Gasoline. I'm sure there are others I cannot think of.
After identifying the various ways, RL stated something to the effect if tax-paying citizens saw a grand total of all the tax $$$ they paid in a year, there would be a tax revolt or something to that effect. I always thought that was a good point and spot on.
After identifying the various ways, RL stated something to the effect if tax-paying citizens saw a grand total of all the tax $$$ they paid in a year, there would be a tax revolt or something to that effect. I always thought that was a good point and spot on.
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Property taxes are the worst form of taxation, because the tax bill is somewhat arbitrary and has no connection with the ability to pay. It is a **** system all the way around. Ideally, we'd see it dumped and replaced with a higher sales (or as Rep. James White once proposed, a VAT). I'd happily go for either, but they aren't politically viable.
I only tolerate our property taxes, because as a practical matter, the alternative is an income tax, and to be honest, in a vacuum, I'd prefer an income tax. It's far more objective, more predictable, and much more closely tied to ability to pay. The problem is that we know what happens with income taxes. Instead of having a fair, low tax that hits everybody equally and fairly, politically preferred constituencies and powerful interests get special treatment, and normal people get f'ed. It's just way too easy for politicians to abuse on behalf of slimy interests.
Property tax works on the county and state level but not necessarily on the individual level. Probably was more fair 100-200 years ago
I hate the income tax. I hate the idea that my income is going to be absconded by the Govt without any recourse. A flat tax without exception is more palatable but my personal preference would be a sales tax where I have some control, don’t want to pay don’t buy. But I would not favor sales tax added to groceries (like Texas exempts) . But a 23 percentage, as some have mentioned is punitive. Just my opinion.
US government spends 22-24% of GDP. GDP is approximately the same as US income. Thus, flat tax should be 22% or so. I agree on a flat tax of 20% for wages, interest, and capital gains. Lower corporate tax from 22% to 20%. Increase import taxes as needed to balance budget.
It was fairer back then, because far more people made their money off of their real property. It made a lot more sense.
More punitive than the federal income tax and FICA?
Paying $23 on a $100 purchase? Yes that’s more punishment than what I generally pay in income tax. It’s the principle of having to give the Govt what I earn that pisses me off. I have a piece of property that has great commercial appeal but refuse to sell (to the chagrin of my family) because the thought of paying the insane tax makes me physically sick. No way in h*** they deserve it.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Why would you tolerate the worst kind of tax? How is that practical?
I get things being politically viable if that means politicians won't vote it in. But this is what we have to change. You are saying the only practical option is the WORST option. I'm sorry. That's not good enough for Texas. We have to change that.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
If you think a 23% rate is punitive then maybe you are seeing how unethical today's tax system is because we are paying at least that much from all the different taxes we pay.
You'll notice that I said in a vacuum, an income tax is better than property taxes. (I DID NOT SAY I'D TAKE AN INCOME TAX OVER A SALES TAX OR VAT.) How so? Because it's objective and at least generally based on ability to pay. You make X amount of money this year and pay Y percentage of tax on it. That's pretty fair.
Property taxes? You pay based on what some appraiser thinks your property is worth, and since that can change wildly over time and has no connection with how much money you make, it has almost no relationship with your ability to pay.
What keeps me from accepting an income tax is that we're not in a vacuum. Politics and corruption would enter the picture. We'd have multiple rates (no longer fair). We'd have exclusions of various types of income (no longer fair). We'd have a myriad of tax credits and deductions that help the politically preferred and powerful (no longer fair). And it's not just the potential for this. It's a virtual certainty because pretty much every governing body that has income taxing authority does it, and as crappy as property taxes are, this is worse.
As for the sales tax, it isn't just a matter of what politicians want to vote in. At the national level, the public wouldn't want it. A lot of things about it are very easy for the Left to attack and require relatively complicated answers to defend against.
And keep in mind that every unfair policy has winners or at least people who think they win. The income tax is no exception. The poor win because they pay nothing or almost nothing. The wealthy win because if they're willing to hire lobbyists, they can certainly greatly reduce their tax burdens. It's the people who make enough to have a substantial tax bill but not enough to hire an army of lobbyists who really get hosed. However, they aren't politically organized and usually don't know how badly they're getting hosed.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I agree with what you are saying. I would hope that some smart guys some day can market a sales tax in a way that answers its detractors. I think it is possible, but admit that enacting a law to switch over to sales tax today won't happen.
Of course no tax would be great too. But first things first.
Of course no tax would be great too. But first things first.
Ok, doing some back of envelope math I can see where my total tax bill might equate to 23%, but I interpreted what you were saying would be a replacement for income tax only, no way I’d want that. Now if it replaced ALL other taxes I’d have two comments - might be a good thing, and 2; not gonna happen.
Nash, just to be clear, we're talking about two separate things, which none of us are explaining very well. First, you have the so-called "Fair Tax," which enacts a national sales tax. It's designed to replace the federal income tax and FICA (the federal Social Security and Medicare payroll tax). That's what would be 23 percent, and though it would replace every major federal tax, it wouldn't replace any state or local tax (like sales or property tax).
Second, there is an effort to eliminate the terrible Texas property tax system and replace it with an increased sales tax or VAT. It would be a significant increase but nothing colossal like 23 percent (probably around 3 percent depending on what it excludes or smaller if it's a VAT).
Personally, I like the Fair Tax, but I like it like I'd like to own one of the old space shuttles. It's a cool idea with no plausible chance of happening. The property tax replacement is very unlikely to happen and would be politically very hard to do, but it's definitely more plausible. It's more like me getting a Ferrari. Still virtually no chance but more likely than getting one of the old shuttles.
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