2CENTSWORTH
< 25 Posts
allow guys to earn their starts on the field. No predetermined #1 starter before spring ball!
Longhorn QBs: 1998 - 2002
- Thread starter LonghornGirlie
- Start date
Gordon Shumway
100+ Posts
I can't believe we still discuss this topic. It was so clear and evident who the better quarterback was it's not even funny.
LHG,
Great post and very well thought out. I don't have time to read all the responses, so I'm sorry if a couple of my points have already been covered.
First off, I take exception to your entire post being about win/loss records, then noting in the last sentence that this is not the only indicator as to the QB's success/talent.
Reason being, the entire time I'm reading your account of Applewhite's exploits in his first start, the next year's Apple Turnover game (as it became known), and the NU big XII championship game, I'm picturing Ryan Nunez, Brian White, and Jeremy Jones.
Now, I've got nothing against those guys at all. They each at various points in their careers here helped us win games. But to compare what Applewhite was able to do with that talent to what Simms did with the likes of Roy Williams, BJ Johnson, Sloan Thomas, etc. is laughable at best.
In fact, that epiphany that you claimed Chris had against Kansas should be renamed Roy Williams, because that's who Chris found that day. A lot, as I recall.
I certainly agree with your assesment of Mack's decision, and how important it was on the outcome of both QB's careers. I've always maintained that it was his decicion to start Simms the next year, but yes, the two-headed monster was the genesis of the issue.
After some time to reflect on the last couple years (sans agony over OU defeats still weighing heavy on me) and after watching the recent bowl games, national champ game, and to some extent the senior bowl today, I've come to the conclusion that Simms just doesn't have the same maturity level of some of the great QB's I've seen. I hate to sound harsh - and I don't intend this to be a slam on him in any way - but when I see him complete a TD pass and do his wrigling fingers thing towards the sideline, I just shake my head and think the classic "act like you've done it before."
In watching Ohio State's QB towards the end of that game, you could just see the maturity in his eyes and demeanor. Much like Applewhite had back in his heyday. 4th and 14 with the game on the line, and Ragone slings one for a first down. What does he do? Calmly looks to the sideline for the next play. Doesn't even bat an eyelash as his teammates cheered and pumped their fists.
I don't know. Maybe I'm being too critical. That was something that always bugged me about his game. He was a good QB on a good team that could have been great. That's not something to be ashamed of. I think everyone just gnashes their teeth at what "could have been" had Applewhite been driving the bus last year.
He had the intangibles. You can't argue with that.
Here's to Chance and Vincent. Let the games begin............
Hook'em!
Great post and very well thought out. I don't have time to read all the responses, so I'm sorry if a couple of my points have already been covered.
First off, I take exception to your entire post being about win/loss records, then noting in the last sentence that this is not the only indicator as to the QB's success/talent.
Reason being, the entire time I'm reading your account of Applewhite's exploits in his first start, the next year's Apple Turnover game (as it became known), and the NU big XII championship game, I'm picturing Ryan Nunez, Brian White, and Jeremy Jones.
Now, I've got nothing against those guys at all. They each at various points in their careers here helped us win games. But to compare what Applewhite was able to do with that talent to what Simms did with the likes of Roy Williams, BJ Johnson, Sloan Thomas, etc. is laughable at best.
In fact, that epiphany that you claimed Chris had against Kansas should be renamed Roy Williams, because that's who Chris found that day. A lot, as I recall.
I certainly agree with your assesment of Mack's decision, and how important it was on the outcome of both QB's careers. I've always maintained that it was his decicion to start Simms the next year, but yes, the two-headed monster was the genesis of the issue.
After some time to reflect on the last couple years (sans agony over OU defeats still weighing heavy on me) and after watching the recent bowl games, national champ game, and to some extent the senior bowl today, I've come to the conclusion that Simms just doesn't have the same maturity level of some of the great QB's I've seen. I hate to sound harsh - and I don't intend this to be a slam on him in any way - but when I see him complete a TD pass and do his wrigling fingers thing towards the sideline, I just shake my head and think the classic "act like you've done it before."
In watching Ohio State's QB towards the end of that game, you could just see the maturity in his eyes and demeanor. Much like Applewhite had back in his heyday. 4th and 14 with the game on the line, and Ragone slings one for a first down. What does he do? Calmly looks to the sideline for the next play. Doesn't even bat an eyelash as his teammates cheered and pumped their fists.
I don't know. Maybe I'm being too critical. That was something that always bugged me about his game. He was a good QB on a good team that could have been great. That's not something to be ashamed of. I think everyone just gnashes their teeth at what "could have been" had Applewhite been driving the bus last year.
He had the intangibles. You can't argue with that.
Here's to Chance and Vincent. Let the games begin............
Hook'em!
LonghornGirlie
500+ Posts
For the third time....
As far as the supporting cast argument, its my contention that both QBs left the program better than they found it. Major inherited a 4-7, unranked team and (for all practical purposes) took it to a #12 team (end of 2000 season). Yes, he was on the roster in 2001, and had the Holiday Bowl victory, but transition-wise I think its fair to count that as a Simms season. Simms (roughly) inherits a #12 team and takes it to two top 10 finishes, back to back 11 win seasons.
Major's teams:
1998: 9-3
1999: 9-5
Shared:
2000: 9-3
Simms:
2001: 11-2
2002: 11-2
I think its fair to say that the supporting cast can be held responsible for the extra 2 wins per season. Would 9-3/9-5 seasons been a disappointment for the latter part of Simms career and with the team that he was a part of? Yes. Is 11-2 a devastating disappointment? No.
As far as the supporting cast argument, its my contention that both QBs left the program better than they found it. Major inherited a 4-7, unranked team and (for all practical purposes) took it to a #12 team (end of 2000 season). Yes, he was on the roster in 2001, and had the Holiday Bowl victory, but transition-wise I think its fair to count that as a Simms season. Simms (roughly) inherits a #12 team and takes it to two top 10 finishes, back to back 11 win seasons.
Major's teams:
1998: 9-3
1999: 9-5
Shared:
2000: 9-3
Simms:
2001: 11-2
2002: 11-2
I think its fair to say that the supporting cast can be held responsible for the extra 2 wins per season. Would 9-3/9-5 seasons been a disappointment for the latter part of Simms career and with the team that he was a part of? Yes. Is 11-2 a devastating disappointment? No.
Gordon Shumway
100+ Posts
Good post drag worm.
fredthelonghorn
First Time Poster
Po:
Now that I think about it, it seems that our offensive players are just as bad at tackling as our defensive players. That explains why so many interceptions were returned for touchdowns.
Now that I think about it, it seems that our offensive players are just as bad at tackling as our defensive players. That explains why so many interceptions were returned for touchdowns.
* After reading through this entire thread for the first time, it seems you've already addressed all the issues in my lame attempt to join the discussion.
Lets just leave it this: The image of Major waving his towel as the last seconds ticked off the Holiday Bowl clock versus Washington, and the image of Simms playing "This is the Church and this is a Steeple" with Nordgren as the last seconds ticked off the Cotton Bowl clock versus LSU.
Here's to a Burnt Orange future.
Hook'em!
dw
Lets just leave it this: The image of Major waving his towel as the last seconds ticked off the Holiday Bowl clock versus Washington, and the image of Simms playing "This is the Church and this is a Steeple" with Nordgren as the last seconds ticked off the Cotton Bowl clock versus LSU.
Here's to a Burnt Orange future.
Hook'em!
dw
What an EXCELLENT read! We've had a raging Applewhite/Simms debate on Gator Country the last week and your essay was enlightening. Even though I lived in Texas during 98-02, I had forgotten some of the key elements in the controversy. Thanks.
And I STILL think Applewhite should have started his senior year.
And I STILL think Applewhite should have started his senior year.
zork
2,500+ Posts
Great post that should go to classic posts please.
I just hope the fans can learn from the Major/Simms thing when we have the Young/Mock situation looming. The opposing fans are already peppering us with the Mock/Young question trying to set off another huge infight. (check out the <25 post people who are almost daily bringing this up) That's not to mention the real UT fans who have already chosen a side in the upcoming debate.
I wonder, at least, if the fans will be able to take race out of the issue and just cheer for the QB on the field? Nah, that is an unrealistic expectation. Let the next detrimental to the team UT QB controversy begin! <throw-up smiley>
I just hope the fans can learn from the Major/Simms thing when we have the Young/Mock situation looming. The opposing fans are already peppering us with the Mock/Young question trying to set off another huge infight. (check out the <25 post people who are almost daily bringing this up) That's not to mention the real UT fans who have already chosen a side in the upcoming debate.
I wonder, at least, if the fans will be able to take race out of the issue and just cheer for the QB on the field? Nah, that is an unrealistic expectation. Let the next detrimental to the team UT QB controversy begin! <throw-up smiley>
majorwhiteapples
5,000+ Posts
I enjoyed both quarterbacks as well as I gnashed my teeth at times with both quarterbacks. I know we are not trying to prove whose better but I wonder what the touchdown to Interception ratio was for each quarterback and the 3rd down completion for a first down where for each of them, as well as two-minute drill scores?
Mack Brown has had a two headed quarterback monster since his Tulane days. We will have another one next year, get ready and get used to it. Start taking notes now for the same post in a few years regarding Young and Mock. Hopefully, it will be more like Young was better than Mock because he led us to two National Championships rather than just the one that Mock led us too.
Mack Brown has had a two headed quarterback monster since his Tulane days. We will have another one next year, get ready and get used to it. Start taking notes now for the same post in a few years regarding Young and Mock. Hopefully, it will be more like Young was better than Mock because he led us to two National Championships rather than just the one that Mock led us too.
zork
2,500+ Posts
Didn't Applewhite start the '00 63-14 debacle? Are you giving that loss to Simms coming into a game down 28-0? If that is the case then you need to give the '99 Aggy loss to Applewhite for losing the lead when he came in.(defense really lost both those games for the most part but the many 3 and outs can also be a big Offenisve blame <too many 3 and outs in the 3rd quarter '99 Aggy, too many 3 and outs to begin '00 OU) Damn those painful memories.
The: 3-0, 3-3 records for OU/Aggy are wrong(not fairly placed) in my opinion.
Note: I didn't see this thread till today. Great overall job talking about a thorny situation.
The: 3-0, 3-3 records for OU/Aggy are wrong(not fairly placed) in my opinion.
Note: I didn't see this thread till today. Great overall job talking about a thorny situation.
LonghornGirlie
500+ Posts
zork,
beencounting
500+ Posts
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