Longhorn QBs: 1998 - 2002

Excellent Post. However, it should be noted that Chris had a much better supporting cast over the past couple of years than Major had at the beginning of his career. Therefore, Major's loss in the Big 12 Championship really is not similar to Chris's loss in any way, shape, or form.
 
LHG- Interesting post. Let me preface also by saying I am not a Simms or Applewhite basher. Both played hard and did their best for TX. I will however play devil's advocate to a few of your points.

First, a major point of your post seems to be that although both qbs had similar statistics (both team stats and individual stats) one is remembered more fondly by fans than the other. Although this fact may not be particularly fair it is not without basis. It is all about potential. If you have a car race and a Ferrari and a Plymouth tie for first, the Plymouth owner is going to be ecstatic and the Ferrari owner is going to be pissed even though they both had the same outcome. Evaluating individual statistics in a team game is subjective at best (as you point out) but, and this is your post, the fact that the two had very similar stats certainly can lead one to believe that Simms underachieved considering that his physical tools are much greater than Applewhites and considering that TX, as a team, was certainly better in the last few years than before. Again, not saying that it is fair or right but an argument can be made that Simms did less with more.

Second, red shirt year or not, I do not see how anyone can argue that Simms was still inexperienced in 2001. Coming into that year, as you have chronicled so well, Simms had been through at least 3 summer and 2 spring practice sessions had played in some mop up situations in 1999 had more mop up duty in early 2000 and then had some significant playing time in late 2000. In 1999 he was put in a horrible situation for the A&M game but did play and, at a minimum, should have gained some "big game" experience. In 2000 he was again put in a no win situation versus OU but still should have gained some experience. He then started the 2000 A&M game and (as you pointed out) played very well including a near perfect 3rd quarter. At he bowl game he had a tough first half but played well enough (as you point out) in the second half to give TX a chance to win and threw some very good balls that were dropped. He was then named the starter before spring practice and got almost all the snaps in practice and all of the first few games of 2001. How anyone can say he was still green when the OU game rolled around is questionable at best. However you make a point of saying it was only his 9th start and Simms himself in his now infamous ESPN quotes said he wasn't ready because he did not have enough experience. I think that is ********. Up to that game he had played in several big games (it doesn't get any bigger than A&M at TX and bowl games are always on a grand stage), played well in several big games even won one, yet still he is inexperienced. Get real. Even you pointed out that in the Kansas game in 2000 "Simms has his epiphany". How many epiphanies does someone need before they really have an epiphany? No one thought TX would struggle in 2001 because Simms was inexperienced, because no matter what he or you or any other fan says he wasn't inexperienced.

Lastly, to go back to the original point of my reply about why the two qbs are remembered differently, I think you must look again at the 2001 Championship game against Colorado. You point out that it was Simms 17th start just like Applewhites 17th start against K St in 1999. Few could argue that TX was better than K St in 1999, but everyone believed (and many still do) that TX was a lot better than Co in 2001. The most disapointing thing about the game was that Simms failures seemed much more mental than physical that day. Again, we are talking about perception of two players and on that day many fans (rightly or wrongly) lost respect for Simms as a fighter and questioned his toughness and competitive spirit. And his sideline demeanor in the 2nd half didn't help. I have no reason whatsoever to question his injury but I can question his commitment to the team and his leadership capabilities in the way he handled himself during the comeback. Again, we are talking about perception (as you point out in your post) and the perception of many was that he was not part of the comeback and he certainly was not encouraging Applewhite, or talking to him about the Co defense or talking to the receivers or firing up the defense etc. he stood apart from the fray somewhat aloof and simply watched. Personally, I'm not sure any of that matters but to some it does and they are influenced by the perception that he didn't really care.

To recap, you wonder about the perception of the two qbs and for the points I described above it is at least logical that some people could percieve the two differently. Going into the 1998 season if someone said to you that Tx was going to do exactly what they did do statistically (Applewhites numbers and wins and losses) you would probably take it and be fairly content especially based on the previous few seasons. However, if someone came to you before the 2001 season and said that over the next two years Simms personal numbers and the teams overall numbers would be about the same as the previous 2 seasons with Applewhite(especially the stats against ranked teams and bowl games) you would not be happy at all and would certainly have expected more.
 
Katy,
in '99 didn't we have the Westlake QB who they decided to redshirt instead of Simms. I want to say Adam Scott? or something close to that. He now plays for San Diego State, I think. I know we were so thin one of them had to not redshirt, I just thought they had two to choose from.
Sorry, if I'm wrong


Excuse my entire post, I didn't finish reading the thread before I started to reply. I'm an idiot.
 
LHG, I'm not trying to be obnoxious or anything but, I'm absolutely right about Major playing against NMst, too. Strolled onto the field like he owned the place and led us to a TD (or 2?) in the 4th qtr. I'm a big fan of both kids and I always trust whatever the coaches do because I think they are experts. BTW, I named my dog Major and I got both daughters Chris Simms #2 jerseys for Christmas.
 
bronco, you illustrate my point brilliantly. Thank you.
The point being that the primary difference between the two quarterbacks was perception of potential. Why is that Simms was so hyped? And Major was not?

Certainly, Major Applewhite turned out to be a big surprise. I would argue that the potential was always there. I doubt we will ever see another QB enter UT as prepared as Major Applewhite. He is a true student of the game. He attended dozens of football camps and trained under the very best. Its his unparalleled understanding of the game that most believe will form the foundation of a great coach.

I have wondered at the irony that now Major finds himself with the exact kind of hype and unrealistic expectations heaped on his shoulders regarding his coaching career. If his career does keep him on the Forty Acres, I hope that people will understand that he's got all the potential in the world to be a great coach, but that he will have to develop in that regard, which likely means that he will make mistakes along the way. As unforgiving as we are with even position coaches, I wonder if the fans will give him the time that he will need.

So, Simms did not fulfill on expectations? What exactly were those expectations? An MNC? A Heisman? What percentage of even the bluest chips fulfill on expectations like that? And whose failure is it when they don't?

Shouldn't you likewise have expected a Lombardi out of Cory Redding? What about his leading the team to an MNC? Why is he not vilified by many? Is he such a failure? He was the #1 defensive prospect after all.

I can and do argue that Simms true freshman year in which he had some mop-up duty and basically a no-win situation start was roughly equivalent to the development that Major Applewhite got by sitting out his true freshman and taking a redshirt.

So, if we're aligning their careers, Major's redshirt Freshman year, in which he is called upon to be the sole starter in the second game equates to Chris' true sophomore year which starts with the Co-Starter From Hell fiasco. My argument is that these five games were actually detrimental to both players. Chris' confidence and development actually regressed during this period. For argument's sake, let's say that it actually wiped out whatever confidence he built during his actual game-time experience his true freshman year, making him the virtual equivalent of a redshirt fresman at that point.

If you are willing to agree with me on those points, then Chris Simms enters the 2000 OU game as essentially his 8th true start as roughly the equivalent of a redshirt freshman QB. The closest game we find in Major's career at that point is his win in 1999 over #6 Texas A&M in Austin, where we won 26-24 when Ricky broke the record. Simms lost to #2 OU, our main rivals, the defending National Champs who had embarrassed us 63-14, 14-3 where we were in the game until late in the fourth. Simms was not completely inexperienced, but I would put his experience level about that of a late season first year QB. That's a lot to ask. I hope that whoever is our QB in mid-October this year fares better, but either of them will be short on the experience scale.

Certainly, the Big XII Championship was the darkest day in Simms career. His performance was horrible. Once again though, the enormous difference between a significant stumble by Major Applewhite as an experienced QB, and that of Simms is one of perception and pressure. The K-State loss was a disappointment, but the cameras did not focus on every twitch on Applewhite's face. There was much less at stake. The analogies are imperfect. Pressure-wise, the most equivalent game is Major's Big XII championship -- his 20th start, although that didn't have national championship implications for us. Why is it that Major's lackluster performance in that game didn't color the rest of his career the way that Simms' did? Once again, unfair expectations.

As far as the supporting cast argument, its my contention that both QBs left the program better than they found it. Major inherited a 4-7, unranked team and (for all practical purposes) took it to a #12 team (end of 2000 season). Yes, he was on the roster in 2001, and had the Holiday Bowl victory, but transition-wise I think its fair to count that as a Simms season. Simms (roughly) inherits a #12 team and takes it to two top 10 finishes, back to back 11 win seasons.

Major's teams:
1998: 9-3
1999: 9-5

Shared:
2000: 9-3

Simms:
2001: 11-2
2002: 11-2

I think its fair to say that the supporting cast can be held responsible for the extra 2 wins per season. Would 9-3/9-5 seasons been a disappointment for the latter part of Simms career and with the team that he was a part of? Yes. Is 11-2 a devastating disappointment? No.

With the talent we have on board and the depth that we now enjoy, if we level off here forever, that will be disappointing.
 
Not to put words in LHG's mouth, but I don't think her point is that Chris underacheived and Major overachieved because they have "similar" stats.

If you'll indulge me, I think her point was, contrary to just about every blowhard with season tickets, Chris' career didn't suck and Major's career didn't turn water into wine.
 
Weneedricky. That argument does not hold water. Major had a better O line than Chris had this year. He also had 2 recievers get drafted. And last but not least, Ricky Effin Williams.
 
LHG- As I stated, I am playing devil's advocate because this is an interesting debate so I guess I am glad I illustrated your point. But lets look at a few things:

You ask why one was over-hyped versus the other and you point out that perhaps Major should have been hyped more when he came in. The difference is in the reasons that they were hyped for, which makes all the difference in the world regarding fans' feelings and perceptions.

First lets look at Chris. Surely you would agree that he is extremely gifted physically, and certainly more so than Major. Isn't Chris taller, faster, stronger, have a stronger arm? All things very important to a qb.

Lets look at Major. By your own reasoning, Major deserved more hype because of his mental acumen, his preparedness and understanding of the game and his hard work.

Now no one I have ever heard has said that Chris was dumb, so is it unreasonable to expect that the very things that you admire in Major (being prepared, study the game etc.) are attainable by Chris. Of course they are unless you think Chris was dumb which I know you do not. On the other side, the very things that Chris was hyped for are NOT attainable by Major. He can't change the physical tools he was given. So the argument is that if they have (sttistically speaking) very similar careers you can logically argue that either Major overachieved (which fans love) or Chris underachieved (which fans hate). Keep in mind that we are not talking underachieved or overachieved in comparison to other individuals or other teams, the whole point of your post was that Major and Chris, in comparison to each other only, was a tie. So again I would argue that there is naturally going to be more affinity for the less physically talented individual that performs equally with the more physically talented individual.

Next you argue that many blue chip athletes do not live up to their expectations which I certainly agree with. But that is a completely different argument. I thought your post was about Chris versus Major only and why some people regard one higher than the other when, in essence, their results were the same. With the physical tools that Chris has and with his pedigree he did deserve a certain amount of hype. And, rightly or wrongly, the qb is going to be in the spot light more so than any other player. They have the ability to have the biggest impact on the game. Opposing offenses can run every play away from a Cory Redding, but opposing defenses can't force some one else to take the snaps.

To your points about experience I think you may have mixed up your dates. You say "If you are willing to agree with me on those points, then Chris Simms enters the 2000 OU game as essentially his 8th true start as roughly the equivalent of a redshirt freshman QB." First I will assume that you mean 2001, but I do not think that he was even remotely equivalent to a redshirt freshman qb and you make my argument for me. I will agree with you that his freshman year was a wipeout and that the co-starter games may have hurt both guys so we'll neglect them. But at the end of 2000 Chris started 3 important games and played well in them. You said it yourself that he had an epiphany in the 2000 Kansas game. He started, and played well, and won the A&M game which by any standard was a critical game to Tx and was as intense and pressure packed as it gets in college football. You said his 3rd quarter was perfect. He also got the experience of the big stage in a bowl game. I won't rehash the game but you yourself admit that he could take a lot of positives away from that game. How many red shirt players get that kind of experience? None. By definition red shirt players don't even play the year before. How can you look at his results in those games in 2000 and give him credit for an "epiphany" and then he gets virtually every practice snap that spring and summer but say he was just like a red shirt freshman when he played OU in 2001? That is so illogical it is not even worth arguing over. I can't believe that you think Chance or Vincent will have the equivalent experience when they play OU this year that Chris had in 2001.

Regarding Chris and Major's respective Championship games in 2001 and 1999 all I can say is that it is difficult to look back at statistics and get a true feeling for the game and there was a lot more on the line in 2001 than in 1999. In 1999 Tx already had 3 losses coming into the game and was not going to play for an MNC win or lose. You said it yourself that Nebraska was "determined" that day. Although there is no way to know, most would agree that a qb change that day wouldn't have made any difference. Nebraska was better. In 2001 everyone already knew that if Tx won, they play for the MNC. Unfortunately for chris he had a particularly bad game AND had the misfortune of having Major come in and play great in the second half and almost pull out the comeback win. Unlike in 1999, most would agree that Tx should have won the game in 2001 but beat themselves. Once again I must reiterate that the point of this debate is a comparison of the two qbs and how they are remembered by the fans. In 1999 no one thought Major cost Tx the game but rather that NU was just better and won. In 2001 everyone thought Chris had cost Tx the game for the simple fact that Major came in and did so well. Had Major come in and stunk up the joint perceptions would almost certainly be different, but he didn't.

The fact remains that there are perfectly good reasons why people feel differently about the two qbs.
 
Well, I always had this question in my mind, and I am finally glad I got it answered. It doesn't matter to me anymore though, because I am just so glad this era of Texas football is finally over. But, I do find it humorous that people actually give Chris the credit for the win over LaLa even though we were behind when he was replaced. It's OK, like I said it is over now and best of luck to both Chris and Major. Hookem!
 
Yeah Crazy that is very troublesome
rolleyes.gif
 
We should also take into account the strength on the teams played.Just as an FYI:
Starting with the KSU debacle in 1999, the last 18 games Major Applewhite started/played & took most of the snaps in 1999 and 2000, guess what Texas' record was?

12-6.

We beat one team with a winning record with Major at the helm in 2000. Texas Tech, who finished 7-6. Major left with a lead and Simms finished it.

We got stomped by the best team we faced that year, OU.

The "big" Colorado win on the road? CU was 3-8 in 2000.

In 1999, with Major under center, we beat four teams with winning records, Nebraska, OU, Texas Tech and Stanford. All but one game at home.

In 1999 and 2000, UT beat exactly ONE ranked team -- Nebraska AT HOME in 1999 and 2000. Of course, we got FOUR Nebraska fumbles in the red zone, otherwise we get creamed that day. Buckhalter and Alexander both fumbled just before going into the endzone. And, never forget, we got sodomized in the rematch.

The victories with Major at the Helm

1999

Stanford (8-4)
Rutgers (1-10)
Rice (2-9)
OU (7-5)
Baylor (1-10)
OSU (5-6)
Nebraska (12-1)
ISU (4-7)
TT (6-5)

Cumulative Record: 46-57

2000

Louisiana Lafayete (1-10)
Houston (3-8 )
OSU (3-8 )
CU (3-8 )
MU (3-8 )
Baylor (2-10)
TT (7-6)

Cumulative record: 22-58

TOTAL Record: 68-115

Note: We lost to 5-6 Stanford, the last time we lost to a team with a losing record.

The coaches had every reason to assume that we had seen the best of Major and that we had, in fact, plateaued.

Chris, on the other had, CLEARLY had his best football ahead of him. He was very good against the 2nd best team we faced all year, Oregon, nearly leading us back to victory. And he had destroyed the 3rd best team we faced, A&M.

Just for the sake of argument, in 2001, Chris beat four teams that finished with winning records, UNC, TT, CU and A&M.

In 2002, Chris beat eight teams with winning records, UNT, Tulane, OSU, KSU, ISU, NU, A&M and LSU.

This is brought up to remind folks that Simms improved and the coaches had their reasons for making him the starter, NOT as an indictment on Major. We weren't exactly dominating at the end of 1999 and 2000 with Major in there, and then he got injured twice.

Most Longhorn fans rooted for the qb, not the name. I would have been perfectly happy had Major stayed the starter, but after two serious knee injuries, I didn't think the coaches were stupid in giving the other kid a chance.

I sure as **** hope we don't go through this again over the next year.
 
I really do think we would have fared better at the end of '99 against A&M, Nebraska, and Arkansas if we had Roy, BJ, Sloan, Cedric, etc. rather than Brandon Healy, Jamel Thompson, Kwame(for two of those games), Hodges, and I believe Nunez and Jeremy Jones were back for the Arkansas game after being out the A&M and Nebraska games. I can't believe that nobody takes that into consideration.

And I don't know if this has anything to do with anything, but I was at a bar in Dallas the night before the Nebraska game and hear this guy spouting off about how Chris Simms is the most overrated QB of all time. I go to him and say "Are you crazy? How can you be overrated when all the media does is bag on you and say how bad you are? If anything he is the most underrated QB of all time."

He says "Simms' problem is he has no sack". This just pushed me and I go "No sack? Do you even watch the fuckin games? Chris is one of the toughest QBs out there." I think this perception that he is not tough is out there because he is a rich kid and it just gets repeated and repeated.

The next day against the Huskers, Chris runs over to the sideline and gets his finger popped back into place and subsequently passes the next two plays, one being for a TD. I just kept thinking that I was hoping this ******* was watching. No sack my ***.
 
I think the posts from LHG and Bronco bring up good points.
The numbers may tell a story of equality to some extent, but it is all about "feel". The world "felt" the presence of Major, when he entered a game. It was similar to way people "felt" when Elway or Montana or Staubach had the ball with a minute to go down by 4. Most Longhorn fans, the rest of the country, and the opposing defense knew that if you give the ball to Major with a chance to win the game, he will find a way. Simms had a good game against Tech 2002 but fell short with an ill timed Interception. Does Major score on that drive--I'd bet a 1000 dollars he would of. Could Applewhite of beaten the Canes in 2001? Not on paper, but If any Texas QB could of, it was Applewhite.

That intangible cannot be found in the numbers. Even if the numbers showed an advantage to Chris, It still couldn't replace the "confident feeling" fans got when Major was in the game. I first witnessed it in it in Ricky's final game against A&M. We were down real late in the 4th and Major's winning attitude could be felt. We were not going to lose. And he proceeded to throw 6 completions in a row with a minute left.
After that game coupled with the NEBRASKA huge win made the world believe that this guy was Really special---And he was only a Redshirt Freshman! He also won the Cotton Bowl, which we hadn't won a bowl game in ages. So in his freshman year he won 4 BIG games for us.
Then he did it again against Nebraska the following year in heroic fashion.
Flash forward........
When he entered the game in the Big 12 Championship game in 2001, everything was completely stacked against him. He hadn't a meaningful snap for over an entire season, because Brown wouldn't let him be in a situation to outshine Simms throughout the year--See OU 2001. I expected him to be rusty as hell and look awful. But no.
Major comes in this game with this attitude (long after anyone in his right mind would think we could possibly come back) and actually bring us back, (with the exception of a horrible punt block call on Brown's part). It was that "feeling" when he got in there that changed the attitude of the entire team, and the fans. The whole thing blew up in Brown's face. The QB controversy Brown tried to squelch is back on. In 1 half of football, Major pretty much proves to most people that he would of probably of won the Heisman over Eric Crouch that year had he started, considering Major's accomplishments during his career and his cult-like appeal across the country. So Mack now has to choose to start Major or Chris in the Holiday Bowl. If he starts Major, it shows that he made a mistake for the entire year on who should of started. If he starts Chris he runs the risk of, Chris playing like he did in the Big 12 CG and being publicly crucified by the media and the majority of UT fans.
However, Mack has to win that Game. Has to. To keep us in the Top 10 for the 1st time since 1983. I believe, It is the 2nd biggest game of Brown's career--> he starts Major and Victor Ike and after a slow offensive start, he replaces Ike with 4th string Ivan Williams and Major comes back in "Montana-like" fashion and wins another classic game.

The point is, is what makes a QB truly great is "clutch play". Not stats and their "record as a starter"--it is what they themselves bring to the party. Major brought the intangible that if we were down in the last minutes---Major would win it. That is where Simms fell short. He could throw a hard spira, and he really played great this year but he rarely ever brought us back in the clutch.
That is the reason why the country was and still is crazy about Major. And not as much for Chris. It isn't Jealousy over Simms's money or alledged good looks. If Simms had the same intangible that Major had, the media world would have fallen all over him, probably more so given his name.
 
I think the posts from LHG and Bronco bring up good points.
The numbers may tell a story of equality to some extent, but it is all about "feel". The world "felt" the presence of Major, when he entered a game. It was similar to way people "felt" when Elway or Montana or Staubach had the ball with a minute to go down by 4. Most Longhorn fans, the rest of the country, and the opposing defense knew that if you give the ball to Major with a chance to win the game, he will find a way. Simms had a good game against Tech 2002 but fell short with an ill timed Interception. Does Major score on that drive--I'd bet a 1000 dollars he would of. Could Applewhite of beaten the Canes in 2001? Not on paper, but If any Texas QB could of, it was Applewhite.


Please tell me this is a joke.
 
I think we are all agreed that with either QB we lost when we couldn't fun the ball successfully.

So shouldn't another consideration be given to how many games did each QB have a RB rush for 200 yards? 100?

Certainly Applewhite would lead in both categories. Ricky probably had more than we have had since then. Hodges was dominant in several games.

As far as the talent argument is concerned, you have to take each year individually. In 1998 the talent (assuming talent is production) on offense was greater than in any year since then.

McGarity and Kwame were better and more consistent than the WRs we had this year. Obviously no where near as talented as Roy, but review the tapes and you will see that McGarity got deep on everyone. Review those same tapes and watch the offensive line pass protection. No contest to the past two years. Casey and Shaun have not been replaced yet.

I beg to differ that Applewhite played great in the second half in the Big12 Championship game. Thirteen offensive points in the first 28 minutes of that half. We had 10 with Simms in the game in the first half. In my opinion Simms performance in that game was similar to Applewhite's in the CU the year before. In the first half, Applewhite fumbled the ball twice, threw one interception, and threw another right through the hands of the DB. However, that game was not on TV and the defense was dominating.

In my opinion, Simms was the most underrated player in the country this year. Largely due to references I heard stating he was the most overrated prior to the beginning of the year.
 
jhc!!!! Here comes the downward spiral

Good input by all but I am so bored with this topic now that I am thinking I'd rather go to Chadland to get away from my usually articulate and knowledgable longhorn family for a few days.

Let the past die let's go onto 2003, where hopefully we can have one QB who starts, one who gets meaningful mop-up time, and no one is bitching which is better or why one is not starting or racism or not winning by enough points where. And of course Greg will pull his head out of his and come decent offense scheme to take advantage of talent instead of letting the talent lap the other team with depth. And maybe just maybe Carl will let our linebackers be linebackers instead fast small DE/DT guys who get sucked into line and do not always produce expected results. Maybe will be so physical in our drills this year that most games won't match the intensity.

Can we just f-ing beat OU already!

Great, now I know I've asked for too much, we are screwed again. Thanks goodness for basketball, baseball, and of course a life.

hook'em
 
Katy, this needed writing. Thanks for doing it well.

Please archive it. Unfortunately, it will need to be referenced in coming years.
 
you are doomed to repeat it. That is my great fear as we head into spring football.

I wrote the following well over a year ago.

I believe it is still relevant today.


"QB bashing a Tradition at UT"

"And a time honored one at that. So now we spend the off-week once again firing up the Major vs. Chris vitriol. I have been an Austinite almost my entire life. I am a UT grad and was associated with the program for almost 25 years ( in a media capacity) and this junk is really old. I wonder if there is any other school that eats its young so readily.

Go back over 40 years and you can see the seeds for this petty bickering stretch all the way back.

For instance in 1960, Junior Mike Cotton and soph Johnny Genung are at QB. The only real grumbling is that two quarterbacks equal no quarterbacks. Cotton takes over in 1961 leads Texas to the Cotton Bowl and a 10-1 season. In 1962 Duke Carlisle sees some action at QB with Genung, but a minimal amount of grumbling is heard.

Things are relatively peaceful until Super Bill Bradley arrives on campus as the 60's equivalent of Chris Simms. Big-time hype, already nick-named Super Bill. Two 6-4 seasons and the wishbone made Super Bill a target for some fans, who got pretty nasty about DKR as well. Street took care of this problem.

I should say Street Royal and Bradley took care of this problem. When Royal moved Bradley to defense he could have been a cancer on the team, but he reacted well, and made the move to DB work for him in terms of professional football. Eddie Phillips was an able successor.

After converted DB Alan Lowry plays quarterback in 1972, Marty Akins takes over in 1973. But there was another QB on campus, one some saw as the Golden Boy with the Golden Arm that would finally take DKR and Texas into the modern age of football. Remember Mike Presley? Good kid, good arm, but didn't pan out. Took a pretty good beating from some fans along the way. Akins of course had a great career, but his senior year the new kid on the block was San Antonio Freshman Ted Constanzo.

HE would be the one to make Texas a two-dimensional team. He's not the answer, and he gets his share of ridicule, and in '76 walk-on Mike Codaro ends up playing. But of course fans see a savior - Mark McBath, so they start clamoring for him.

Injuries take care of Mark and Jon Aune. Now we are ready for some real nastiness from UT fans in the late 70's and early 80's. Donnie Little become the first black QB at Texas in 1978, and gets the kind of reaction from a small segment of small-minded fans that unfortunately you find anywhere. McBath is still around

Rick McIvor arrives in 1979, and the controversy picks up. (Rick had the strongest arm I had ever seen until Simms). Don't forget that Ted Constanzo was still on campus, and all three lettered. There were some really viscous comments made at games and other places. 1980 saw the controversy continue to bubble, and believe me it was no fun to be around the team. The press picked up on it so again public controversy takes off.

In 1981 McIvor seems to take over, but after the Arkansas disaster, and then the Houston tie, Akers turns to walk-on Robert Brewer. McIvor got some of the meanest mail you could imagine after those games. Brewer of course turns into the feel-good story of the decade, and now HS phenom Todd Dodge is in the wings. In fact, McIvor is redshirted in 1982 because Dodge is now on campus.

Then in 1983 we have McIvor, Dodge and Rob Moershcell all at QB. We are winning, so playing quarterback roulette doesn't get to be too big of a controversy, until we lose the Cotton Bowl. Moerschell gives an interview at his home right after the game, and of course he is hurt that he didn't play. So that scab gets to be picked at by the press all spring leading into 1984. I haven't even bothered to mention Danny Akers. Now Brett Stafford is on campus and HE is the designated future savior of the program. Members of Todd Dodge's family have to leave some games early because they can't stand to hear some of the attacks on their relative that are being leveled by UT fans.

We have been living with this quarterback mess pretty much ever since. The mix of fans, and press and losing too often let the situation fester. I will not bother to go into even more detail except to mention the players who have come through since then and have felt the praise and then wrath of fans that often times went way too far. Names like Donovan Forbes, Steve Clements, Jason Burleson, Shannon Kelly, Mark Murdock, Peter Gardere (although his 4 wins over OU gave his a general dispensation from the really nasty fan reaction.) Shea Morenz, James Brown, Richard Walton, Major Applewhite, and Chris Simms.

My long-winded point is that over the past 40 years we have had a steady stream of quarterback controversies. And over the past 20 years our fans have a horrible pattern of choosing somebody as THE MAN, and then when the situation doesn't turn out just right, they then attack the kid while finding someone else to pin their expectations on.

I have posted before that the odds are two really good kids, Applewhite and Simms who might leave here with bittersweet feelings. That bothers the hell out of me, and it should bother you as well.

I'm sure that Chance Mock and Vincent Young are like all young athletes. They see themselves as bulletproof. But I bet their parents are not exactly looking forward to their son's turn on the merry-go-round that is Texas football.

Sometimes I think Longhorn fans can't stand prosperity. We can't change the past, but we can learn from it. I hope we can learn to ratchet down the anger , revel in the successes, and offer criticisms or suggestions without the emotional rancor. Enjoy the ride. "




It’s been a little over a year since I wrote that, and I believe (as the ESPN article indicates) that those two young men did in fact have bittersweet feelings about their stay here.

The fact that both are gone and WE ARE STILL hashing over this gives me pause. I fear that Chance and Vincent better get ready – and I hope that after the past few decades that maybe, just maybe we have learned a lesson.
 
sr,

I hate to think that you are exactly right. I mean, there is already a freaking poll, thanks to the AAS, of who should start.

Both kids can get the job done. Hopefully the fans will let them compete and let the coaches decide and then not blame the other guy if "their" guy loses out.

Probably asking too much.
 
LHG,

Your post is a thinly veiled Simms pep rally in my estimation. Please quit trying to act as if you are being objective or that you aren't advocating a postion. It's disengenuous.

Consider that if Major starts the Big 12 title game vs. Colorado, we would have played Miami in the Rose Bowl for the National Championship. I'm sure some genius will respond to that statement by saying "you don't know that." Well, let's just say I have a "feeling" it would have turned out that way.

I shudder to think what Major could have done with the defensive support and offensive firepower Chris enjoyed.

Major - Big 12 Freshman of the year following 9 win season.

Major - Big 12 Co-offensive of the year (shared with future heisman winner) following a 9 win season.

Chris - afterthought for any kind of award following two consecutive 11 win seasons.

You do the math.
 
Srr50, this thread is just loaded with great posts, starting with the one that started it, but yours is a classic.

But you forgot the Duke Carlisle-Tommy Wade controversy in '63; not up there with some of the others, but a controversy, nevertheless.

And Texas has a history of eating coaches alive, too - Blair Cherry; Fred Akers (who deserved it), and John Mackovic (who didn't deserve it quite as much as Akers did). The fans were even rough on Royal; first, before the '63 season when the rap on him was that he was too conservative and couldn't win big games; second, between the loss to Arkansas in '65 and the win over Ok. State in '68, and finally, beginning after the loss to OU in '74 when the griping began that finally ended in his leaving after the '76 season. Texas just expects its stars on the field to jump higher and dive deeper and come up drier.

Hook 'em!
 
Anytime the first sentence in a "Chris Simms/ Major Applewhite Comparison" post begins with the sentence "Let me preface this post by saying that I'm a huge Major Applewhite fan" I pretty much know what to expect. Not that I necessarily expect a "bashing" of Major to follow (though that sometimes does occur), I just know the "slant" that will be given to the facts.

Your post does not bash Major Applewhite, but if it's meant to be an honest comparison of the careers of Applewhite and Simms at Texas, then it does omit a few key facts and downplays a couple of others.

For instance: Did you mention how much the overall talent level of our team improved from 1998 to 2002?

If you did, then bully for you, because generally in this kind of post the poster doesn't. He or she leaves the mistaken impression for obvious reasons that the rosters were similarly talented in 1998 and 1999 when Major started in almost every game and in 2001 and 2002 when Chris did. In truth, they weren't similarly talented. Texas was a much better, deeper football team in 2001 and 2002 than it was in 1998 and 1999 and that's why we won more football games and had legitimate shots at top five finishes in those latter years.

The "Simms/Applewhite" posts that stress the team's W-L record when each starts is very misleading. That statistic in the case of Applewhite and Simms is about as meaningful as it is in a comparison of Josh Heupel and Nate Hybl. Does anyone really believe that Hybl was a better college QB than Huepel because he had a better record as a starting QB?

In regard to that same statistic, I couldn't help but notice this: "Chris's starting career [record after the '99 A&M game]: 0-1* (I will forever put an asterisk by the 1998 game for Chris. Too many bizarre circumstances surrounded that game and he still left the game with a lead)."

But why put an asterisk there?

While it's true that Texas was in front when Simms was benched, it's also true that at that time Texas had gone 3-and-out on five of its last six possessions (we made one first down on the other) stretching from the middle of the second quarter to the beginning of the fourth. It was evident to all that witnessed the game that our defense was wearing out rapidly and would not be able to hang on unless we at least picked up a couple of first downs.

Chris was clearly out of his depth at that point in his career and thus the desperate move to the ill Applewhite (who should never have played in that game).

But if you do insist on placing an asterisk by Chris' first loss as a starting QB then to be consistent shouldn't you also put an asterisk by Chris' first win as a starter? After all, he went 7 out of 14 for 88 yards in that game with one INT being returned for a TD. He left the game trailing, yet still got credit for being the starting QB in that win.

If you are comparing the relative value of the two QBs to their teams' success, shouldn't you mention somewhere that Major Applewhite was voted Co-Most Valuable Offensive Player in the conference in 1999 (along with future Heisman winner Eric Crouch) and that Chris was never voted higher than 3rd team All-Big 12? Do you believe that those honors in anyway reflect a QB's value to his team?

This is not meant to bash Chris, although I'm sure that's how some will take it. It's meant to give Applewhite the credit that he sometimes isn't given in posts that insist on comparing his career at Texas to that of Chris Simms'.

I wish you hadn't posted this because I really don't think one more post with an obvious agenda that purports itself to be an honest appraisal of Chris' and Major' career is very helpful in healing the split that the QB controversy involving the two caused among Texas fans. Major and Chris are both great Longhorns who had fabulous careers at UT. It's really a shame that we can't just leave it at that.
 
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