Let's enjoy our right-wing posters while we can

charles manson took something different away from helter skelter than most. i think we need beatles fans to come defend his interpretation lest we all discredit the beatles.
 
I actually did Dion. Maybe not as in detail as you desire, but you haven't commented one word about what I have already written. Comment on it and maybe we can have a discussion.
 
I think Dio is just asking you guys to actually look at what the May 21 people believe and dissect it, examine it, and explain why it's wrong. It's not enough to say they are crazy and wrong - you have to explain why you believe them to be crazy and wrong. And you have to do so using THEIR data and THEIR explanations and not using your own. Mona has at least commented on their use of a code, which he doesn't believe in, but no one has really brought up what specifically about their interpretation is wrong other than to just say "it's wrong".

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Prod, you say you can dismiss their claims because you've read the book. But have you looked for the codes? I don't think a conventional reading of the text would divulge the codes. Maybe you should step back and take a fresh look at this whole thing, that's all I'm saying.
 
do they know how the world is going to end on may 22st? there has to be a major event of some kind, an asteroid, a massive solar flare, a supervolcano eruption? i havent seen anything in the news about any of this stuff.
 
Dion, that's a good start. I will try to make another contribution.

First, codes are hidden means of communication. We both agree on that. The question is, did God include information in the Bible in some kind of code? Let's think about coded information in general. That should help. When people communicated via coded communication what is entailed? People share the code and try to communicate information so that others can't have the information. Code breakers search for a code because they know they information is being communicated between specific people and that a code is being used to hide that information.

Does God ever say in the Bible that He is speaking in a code and that believers should try to find? No. Does He give any indication what that code is? No. My previous points continue this thought. Jesus said that he taught openly all the that the Father wanted Him to teach. Jesus also says that the rest of the Bible teaches about Him. By implication, Jesus is teaching that the information of the Bible is not in secret it is written and in the open. All you have to do is read. I think that kind of seals the deal. If you disagree, why? What reason should lead me as a believer to look into coded information in the Bible? Every example of scripture is that God communicates to us via our own language not codes.

You ask if I can discuss in more detail their code? No I can't. The article doesn't say anything about the code. I can only think of it in generalities. The only thing I know is that people arbitrarily pick a start point in the Bible, arbitrarily pick a pattern of choosing (like pick one letter for every 7 starting with letter 3 on line 1 and then only pick letters on even numbered lines on the page, and then you can pick the language you want to use, usually the original language but who know what these guys did), collect all the letters chosen, and then arbitrarily interpret the letters they come up with. Until more detail is provided by the group, that is all I can go on.

If that sounds as reasonable to you as reading the Bible and believing what it says in its historical, grammatical context, then we are at an impasse.
 
Mona, I think the idea behind a secret bible code—and I'm not a cryptologist so this is just some speculation on my part—is that the scribes who received the divine word implemented the code, but it was not part of the original revelation to them. Probably because there were parts of the message that they knew would be so controversial, or would so incite panic among the faithful (like revealing the exact date of judgment day) that they took creative license with certain parts of the revelation and chose to document it in a furtive manner, expecting that there would be a group of people sophisticated and clever enough to set about the quest and expose the esoteric message.

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Prod - I think another of my questions got lost in the shuffle because I edited an earlier post to add them.

You said that the Bible does not say the Earth is 6000 years old or that man co-existed with dinosaurs. Does this mean people who believe these things and point to their Biblical interpretation as proof are just as idiotic as the May 21st folks?

And since the story of Noah IS in the Bible, does that mean that it's true and people who otherwise are in the faith but don't believe that story are idiots as well?
 
Dion, I don't think God has to explain everything in plain language. He can use codes if He wants. However, what is said in the Bible would lead a person to believe that there are not secret messages encoded into it. What evidence do you have to believe that shows scribes did in fact do this? It is not mentioned in the Bible or history that I have read.

Also the Bible says as many have already quoted here that people will not know the day or hour that Jesus returns, the rapture occurs, etc. If God had given us the date coded or non, that statement would not be in there. So again what evidence do you have that God gave that date and that scribes encoded it out of fear?

To quote a few more verses which lead me to believe there aren't codes.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

This first shows that scribes could not have encoded something which God didn't intend to be coded because God inspired what was written. The human authors were not allowed the freedom to hide part of God's message. Also, it says that the believer through the Bible can be equipped for all of life. If that is true, God would not have included coded information without some hint that He would have done so, otherwise those whom He intends to equip for every good work will not be able to be. As I have stated before God has given no hint in the Bible that He encoded information within the words, therefore any encoded information (deemed necessary for equipping by God) would fall outside of this statement and therefore unprofitable. It would not be a good interpretation of these verses to say that God included secret messages.

2 Peter 1:16-21
16For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased" 18and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 19So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

The characterization of the word of God here is not one of secret messages. It is described as people writing down what they heard God say and saw God do. It also explains that all interpretations aren't valid. We must try to understand as best we can what God intended. If the prophets spoke from God then they didn't hide God's message. They simply passed it along. God no where is described as giving secret information. At least that I am aware of. You?
 
JohnnyM, those things are much different because they involve what is actually written and it involves interpreting based on the historical grammatical context and the actual definitions of words written.

Codes are not based on the same method. They are based on arbitrary handling of the letters of the words, not even the words, and stripping out letters from words recombining them and then arbitrarily interpreting them. If you can't see the difference in method from your own nonreligous perspective, I don't know what else to tell you.
 
Mona, I never said there was any evidence of secret codes. It's just a theory I have to possibly explain how there could be secret codes, and what the May 21 group might be using as the basis for their predictions.

I could be totally wrong, but I think the theory I described earlier is sound as far as bible code theories go. In fact, I have to say it's the best one I've ever seen.
 
It's the best one I've seen too, which is to say there isn't much to go on.

Basing beliefs on your own speculations, which is all they've got, is dangerous and foolish. I hope you can see the difference between believing in Bible codes and believing in the Biblical text regardless of whether or not you accept the Bible as the word of God.
 
The assertion that the famous seismologist in Italy predicted a big earthquake on today's date, or whatever date it is supposed to occur-that is a false assertion. If you read anything about it, you will find that there are a bunch of people who believe this story, but the guy never made any such prediction.
This is just like the people who believe the Bible somehow secretly instructs them that the world will end on some specific date like May 21. There is absolutely nothing of the sort in there, and these people are deluded idiots.
We aren't having a serious discussion about religion, we are discussing a cult of braindead halucinatory zealots with zero connection to any sort of reality. Quit defending them.
If you want to have a serious discussion of faith, values, biblical moral teaching, etc, fine. It is hard to argue the benefits many people derive from their faith.
But quit tossing total ******** into the discussion, like the world is going to end in a week.
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JohnnyM, which is a more realistic interpretation of the Bible?

I get it you think the Bible is a fairy tale. Keep thinking that. It is not important.

Even fairy tales can be properly interpreted. Am I just as correct to think that Little Red Riding Hood is about how Bryan Harsin's offense will be better than Greg Davis? You see I found this code. That is what it is really about. Also I have looked at the letters of "JohnnyM" and whether you meant it or not the name means that you are a 62 female that lives in Dyersburg, TN.

What do you think?
 
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