Kobe is clutch

Particularly when it comes to post-game interviews. I liked the stuff about Sacramento playing zone and leaving that side open.

Of course, Kobe ran into a defender, took an extra step into him and extended his arms to push him 8 feet away before taking the pass and shooting, but that's the egregious ******** that is the NBA.

Pro wrestling is less suspect.
 
Extra step into the man? Arms fully extended? Pushed him 8 feet? lol

That was some great clutch basketball.
 
Spoken like a true Laker hater. That doesn't get called a foul at the end of any game in the NBA no matter who is/isn't playing that game.
 
I am glad they didn't call that flop. Kobe absolutely nailed that 3. Dude always seem to do what is needed. That shot was pure too.

And who was that guarding him. Guy was illequiped to be guarding Kobe on a buzzer beater. They should have doubled him.
 
Stern ball isn't basketball. I would ask the moderators to remove this thread to 'Other Sports.'

MJ... yea, dude was clutch.. like pushing down Byron Russell? How about the 'star' system, which is openly talked about. Star players get by with things that aren't fouls, that are fouls for 'regular' players. BS.
I hear that the NBA is having real problems filling up stadiums. It has become a sport of thugs, and that is sad to me as a bball fan. The NBA is dead to me, and before long the best bball professional league will be some place in Europe. The only thing keeping the NBA at the level it is, is the cash Americans are willing to spend on the product. The product is not living up to the money.
 
Wow didn't realize that was Kobe's 3rd buzzer beater in December. I remembered him hitting the awesome 3 from the top of the key but forgot about the other one and didn't realize they were all in the same month.

If basketball fans can't respect what he does at the end of games I don't know what to say.....go watch another sport.
 
The idea that Kobe is clutch is a complete myth. He is hyped up, but statistics show that over the course of his career he is FAR from the most clutch and actually one of the least clutch top players in the NBA today.
The Link (Check this site for the stats and breakdown).

This site breaks down game-winning shots (Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.) over five seasons from 03 to 08. While Kobe is fourth on the list of made game winning shots in that span, he is almost at the bottom of field goal percentage on game winning shots. He has missed more game winning shots than any other player in the league during that time frame.

Pick a player, literally almost any player, and you can see that their game winning shot percentage is much higher than Kobe's. Kobe has attempted 56 of these shots and made only 14, giving him and incredible .250%. For a few samples.

Lebron - .340%
Vince Carter - 314%
Ray Allen - .350%
Anthony - .481%
Iverson - .394
Rashard Lewis .386%
Wade - .275%
Pierce - .344%
Nowitski - .324%
Gasol - .500%
Duncan - .391%

This is just a few examples. There are many more. Kobe's game winning shot percentage is one of the lowest in the league. So why do people think he is clutch? Because he keeps jacking up these shots again and again. The ones he misses are forgotten while the ones he hits are built up just like these this month. Another interesting stat is that along with 56 field goal attempts in that span, Kobe only 1 assist and had 5 turnovers. He tries to go it alone, and then he normally misses.

What can we learn from this? Kobe is not clutch, but does jack up a lot of shots.
 
"The idea that Kobe is clutch is a complete myth. He is hyped up, but statistics show that over the course of his career he is FAR from the most clutch and actually one of the least clutch top players in the NBA today. "

The data you are using isn't up to date and isn't inclusive of Kobe's entire career. It is a sample over a 5 year period. It is also uses a definition that may be a bit debatable. Certainly you could miss a shot with less than 24 seconds left and your team still wins the game.....does that mean you missed a clutch shot...maybe...but you didn't miss a game winner. You do see the difference? What about some guy making a normal shot with 24 seconds left that ends up being that decided basket. Is that really the same as a guy elevating for a 3 at the buzzer and draining it?...I don't think so.

Kobe has 3 game winners in the last month so I think with updated stats his #s certainly would look better.

Here is a link of Kobe's game winners (and yes it is updated):
forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=78986

Check out the Youtube highlights there. Seems pretty damned clutch. Notice this list doesn't even count his game tying shots.

I don't know of any list that details better data and includes the past greats in order to get the best 'objective' data on this. However MJ is widely considered the most clutch player ever (best ever as well). He is the guy you want to have the ball at the end of close game. Kobe is certainly right up there. Guy just gets it done. I find it very funny you did a google search on "Kobe Bryant game winning shots" in order to try and find data to disprove that Kobe is a clutch player and hits a ton of game-winners.
 
Here is some interesting data on that same page you posted:

Clutch time stats 08-09 season

Clutch time stats 07-08 season

Kobe and James are tops both years. Of course you say that Kobe is far from the most clutch of the top players currently. This data seems to dispprove that.

Lebron is easily one of the most clutch players as well. There are many discussion boards with discussions of that topic as well. Lebron can do some things Kobe can't and he has some assists for game winners as well. There are arguments on both sides. I would just say they are both clutch. If you had either one of these guys on your team you would want the ball in their hands at the end of a close game and then trust they would do the right thing with it. If you had the 2 on the same team in the same situation....who knows. But you would probably win the game.
 
Yeah, I know the stats don't cover Kobe's entire year, but a five year sample size is pretty big. It's possible his field goal percentage improved in these situations in the last year and a half, but it is unlikely they improved dramatically. One year certainly wouldn't be enough to push him to the top or greatly alter his career percentage. I don't think Kobe is even close to "up there" with all time great clutch players. As the stats showed, he is not even "up there" with today's better players, but is less than average in those situations.

If you look at the FG% for the stats you sent including the last five minutes of games, Kobe is about average with a number of players ahead of him. He is tops in points, but once again that is because he puts up so many shots in those situations. This thread wasn't about the last five minutes of games, it was about hitting game winners, so I think clutch defined as the last 24 seconds of games where a team is tied or down by 2 or less is a much better definition. Regardless, both sets of stats show that Kobe is not especially clutch.

I read these stats before so when you posted this topic naturally went to find them.
 
Possibly. But what he has done this past month has been pretty spectacular. And he has been doing this his entire career.
 
After missing two and having a third blocked in the last four minutes to blow the lead. Just an awesomely heroic performance.
 
...says the guy who read the play by play instead of watching the game.
rolleyes.gif


He actually made three key (clutch) plays in the final minute of that game to seal the win.
 
Every one of your posts, hornpharmd, has the same problems. You continue to assert how great Kobe is, he is the one who you want to have the ball at the end of games, etc. And you say he is at the top of game winning shot charts. But you

1. fail to take into account the sheer number of shots he attempts in those situations. The stats I referenced show clearly that his percentage is poor at best and much lower than other top players. I am not an NBA caliber player at basketball, but I could make some game winning shots too if I jacked up enough. Obviously Kobe is a good player, one of the better in the league. But your original assertion that Kobe "has to be the most clutch player ever" is silly. He is not the most clutch player in the NBA today and is probably not in the top ten. The statistics I sent make that clear.

2. Don't list any stats to back up your claim. Do you have any "clutch" stats you would like to share proving that Kobe is that good? Or is just a feeling?

To make it clear, I think Kobe is very good. He is just not as clutch as you think. Sure, the stats may not perfectly define game winners, but they are a fairly good indicator of "clutchness". And you haven't linked any others that show Kobe is that clutch.
 
I'm not saying Kobe is the most clutch player out there, but the problem with just using the statistics is you have to compare it to what other threats are on that team to take that last shot.

With the Lakers, defenses often focus so much on Kobe (similar to Lebron), and because of that attention he can sometimes drive the lane and then dump it off to someone like Gasol, which is why he has such a high percentage.

I'm sure these stats would also say Steve Kerr is more clutch than Jordan
 
Exactly. Hornfan16 is using his stats link as a bible. The arbitratry definition and time period it uses I have specifically pointed out as flaws. I have posted links to Kobe's career game winners and they are spectacular. I would love to see the spectacular youtube video of say Pau Gasol's game winners since he is also listed high on that list as an example. My previous post though has already hashed this out. There is just a different between a guy getting the ball near the end of the game when everybody in the arena and the other teams knows wants to take the final shot and then draining it over such a defense vs. a guy making a routine shot with say 20 seconds left that ends up being the game winner.

Also that same "data" had a separate linik that I pointed out showing Kobe being at the very top at the end of games over the last 2 seasons. Something we all really know but now with some data to back it up.

Dude is just clutch. Has a fracture on index finger as well right now. And still comes through.
 
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