Israel = the Good Guys in the Middle East; their neighboring states are unsavory and un-trustworthy
- Thread starter Chop
- Start date
You guys are both right and both wrong and overstating your cases. Nuclear weapons weren't a major priority of the Nazis, but it's wrong to say it was no priority at all. And it's downright comical to think they wouldn't have nuclear weapons now had they won the war. It's also true that their territorial ambitions were to the East (especially Eastern Europe to the Ural Mountains) and not in the US, but it's not true that they had no intention of attacking the US. They built a long range bomber (Me-264) for that purpose. Obviously, they had to put that on hold to deal with more pressing needs (like invading the USSR), but it was a priority as were ballistic missiles.
Of course we didn't know, but libertarians are the biggest Monday Morning Quarterbacks in the world when it comes to foreign policy. They would have said Joe Gibbs should have known not to start Joe Theismann against the Giants, because he should have known LT was going to destroy his leg. If only Gibbs would have started their second stringer, Theismann would have kept playing.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
It could be a variety of uses. But once the internal correspondence was opened none of the people in the Nazi government talked to one another about building a bomb. There were statements that the technology could be weaponized. But there is no evidence that there was government program working on that. It was scientists talking about possibilities. I don't get why this is such a sore spot for so many here. There is documentary evidence of what was going on behind closed doors. The truth is readily available and objective.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
True. Israel does have a military justice system. Thanks for the example. I take back my absolute statement, while also cautioning that there are cases where things have been ignored or swept under the rug. I gave an example, unless there is a report that the person who did the thing in the video is receiving consequences.
Thank you for the explanation. While that is an example of Americans are harmed financially, I don't want to go into a full scale war over such things. That is one of the main factors if not the only factor that drew the US into WW1.
We disagree with each other on this subject obviously. There are reasons why Israel has the military capability to do something but choose not to other than thinking what they are doing isn't "mass killing" or at least partial ethnic cleansing and that they are trying to avoid it. Bottom line they aren't avoiding it. I think it is clear when looking at all the facts.
Well, the Seals killed Bin Laden without killing any of the women and children around him. That makes me not a hypocrite. It aligns with my stance that justice can be pursued against individuals without killing those around them.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I never said Germany wouldn't have nuclear weapons in 2023 if the Nazis won WW2. Where is your evidence that they were operating an active program to build them during WW2? Also, did Hitler ever say they were going to attack the US? There was some propaganda in WW1 that Germany was going to work with Mexico to attack our Southern border. Fair enough on the Me-264, I learned something. That is definitely something to defend against. I don't think they would have given Germany any real chance to take over the US.
I wasn't there to collect evidence. You can Google it. There's plenty of evidence. It was called Uranverein and operated under the Wehrmacht (would have made little sense if weapons weren't part of it). We even captured some of the scientists who worked on it. It didn't get very far because Hitler and Speer didn't think it had short term potential, but it did exist.
A declaration of war and building a bomber called the "Amerikabomber" isn't evidence of an intention to attack the US?
They had no short term plan to invade the US. Their ambition was the colonization and Germanization of Central and Eastern Europe (meaning well into the Soviet Union) to create a Greater German Reich. The US wasn't part of that. The UK wasn't part of it. Other than the recovery of the Alsace-Lorraine territories (which shouldn't have been part of France anyway), France wasn't even much of a part of it. At least in the short term, had France and the UK not declared war on Germany, they probably would have been left alone other than the Alsace-Lorraine. In the medium to long term, that's another matter.
Probably so. You can find anecdotes of justice not being done in every institution. Again, it's not a reason to let it drive policy. For example, there are innocent people who have gotten the death penalty. I wouldn't get rid of the death penalty.
Who knows? I know nothing about the video. Maybe something is happening. It's also possible that the video doesn't tell the whole story. Neither of us know.
Usually I wouldn't either. The appropriate response depends on the specifics. It would have to be pretty extreme and broadly damaging to warrant a full scale war.
It's more than disagreement. You're levelling a pretty severe and morally damning accusation against them and frankly, against us. And of course, you're echoing the talking points of the far left.
Terms like "mass killing" or "ethnic cleansing" are loaded terms that suggest malicious, intentional killing of people on the basis of identity for no military objective. Someone who does that typically doesn't warn the population first or give them a chance to evacuate. It also doesn't send or permit humanitarian aid. It's a ridiculous allegation on its face and beneath your intelligence.
He was also in a room totally surrounded by SEALS. Makes it easier. And of course, plenty of people had to be killed to even get to that point. Sometimes justice can be pursued against individuals without killing those around them, but it often can't be. If the bad guys are handed to you on a silver platter, great. Usually they aren't.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Ok. It wasn't a concerted effort. I knew they had a nuclear project ongoing. My understanding was that bombs weren't the purpose behind it, maybe as a side project. Still learning about it.
You can declare war for defensive purposes too. But I get the long range bomber name, but was trying to conquer America really part of their strategic goals? They were interested in creating a state for ethnic Germans weren't they? I do know it was the USSR's goal to take over the whole world.
My question wasn't about their intentions. It was about their capability. Building a long range bomber with a funny name didn't give them any real capability of taking over America across the Atlantic Ocean, especially after going to war with the USSR and having UK and France still intact. If I am missing something fine, I admit I am still putting together the pieces on some of these issues. Maybe Hitler did really want to take over the whole world, but the stuff I have been reading hasn't mentioned it. Maybe that is because those materials were focusing on what happened versus all that Hitler wanted. I don't know. I haven't seen anything saying that taking over America was a part of his strategic goals.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Ok. We had ground troops marching through their capital. There was a war going on. My question isn't could Germany strike American targets. It is was conquering America a strategic goal.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Yeah. But reading the stuff I am it is more than just that. No human institution is perfect in carrying out justice. But there is more going on in Israel. I wouldn't get rid of the death penalty either, but do we really execute people who we KNOW are innocent?
Yes. But there are multiple reports saying similar things. The helicopters shooting indiscriminately at the festival. The bombing of the refugee camp. Hostages who are released are saying they were afraid that Israel was going to kill them with bombs. A video of IDF snipers a couple of years ago laughing about killing kids and a man in a wheel chair close to the wall. There is a lot out there.
I have to honest right? I think the Israeli government is way over the line in their response. My beef is with the governments funding and enacting this violence not people in other countries giving their opinions. A huge group of Jews in the US and Israel agree with my stance too. The Jews against the response are many of the most religious ones. I only agree with dissidents on the left like Max Blumenthal and Glenn Greenwald who are both Jews as well and were on the same side as all of us on the covid restrictions. The way the mainstream media has divided us once again is sad.
How else do you describe killing 10,000-20,000 people? Careful execution? I do believe they are interested in ethnic cleansing because that is what the settlements are about, removing Palestinians from their homes. It is the policy of Israel because they are calling for Egypt and other Western countries to take them away. They are trying to remove Palestinians from the land in a methodical manner. The other things you list can exist while there is still mass killing and ethnic cleansing going on. We have to judge the actions on the actions themselves and the obvious intended outcome of those actions.
Yes. The US government waited until they got him in a situation where they could go in and kill him while not killing his whole family and entourage in the process. They killed Al Qaeda members in the process who are terrorists. It was a good example of the kind of response we should aim for.
But, they must have killed a bunch of women and children to have accomplished that.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
That is a fact. The question is what is an acceptable level of those kinds of deaths is committed in the effort to eliminate Hamas?
Presidents of universities grilled on efforts to counter antisemitism on campus
House Republicans grill university presidents over campus antisemitism
https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4345708-white-house-university-antisemitism/
Rep. Elise Stefanik (R-N.Y.) asked all the presidents if a call for the genocide of Jewish people would be considered harassment under their campus policies.
None of the trio directly answered the question, saying it would need to be investigated by the school or depended on the context and how pervasive the calls were.
“It’s unbelievable that this needs to be said: Calls for genocide are monstrous and antithetical to everything we represent as a country,” White House spokesperson Andrew Bates said.
“Any statements that advocate for the systematic murder of Jews are dangerous and revolting – and we should all stand firmly against them, on the side of human dignity and the most basic values that unite us as Americans,” Bates added.
Harvard has tried to backtrack with a new statement from President Claudine Gay clarifying her position on the issue.
House Republicans grill university presidents over campus antisemitism
https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4345708-white-house-university-antisemitism/
Rep. Elise Stefanik (R-N.Y.) asked all the presidents if a call for the genocide of Jewish people would be considered harassment under their campus policies.
None of the trio directly answered the question, saying it would need to be investigated by the school or depended on the context and how pervasive the calls were.
“It’s unbelievable that this needs to be said: Calls for genocide are monstrous and antithetical to everything we represent as a country,” White House spokesperson Andrew Bates said.
“Any statements that advocate for the systematic murder of Jews are dangerous and revolting – and we should all stand firmly against them, on the side of human dignity and the most basic values that unite us as Americans,” Bates added.
Harvard has tried to backtrack with a new statement from President Claudine Gay clarifying her position on the issue.
The Crest for Harvard contains the word Veritas - Truthfulness. In her testimony, was the Harvard President Truthful? Did she meet the standards of being Truthful to Congress in dealing with campus unrest and supporting Palestinian AND Jewish students? I don't think she met that standard.
From what I have seen, read and heard; her support was a one-way street.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
hic, are you saying that Israel hasn't killed "a bunch of women and children" to get the 2 top Hamas officials?
There are still hundreds if not thousands of bodies buried in rubble that are in the death count.
In your mind how many Palestinian lives are equal to one Hamas life? That would at least give us an objective way to judge the military action going on. Maybe you think it is 1000:1. Maybe it is 500:1. I would put the ratio much more even but I will go with whatever you say. At least that way we could compare the events back to some kind of a standard.
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