Israel = the Good Guys in the Middle East; Turks proving to be our enemies

[Chop]

after the Ottoman Empire was defeated in WWI

The Turks were interlopers, not just in the Levant, but also in what is now Turkey. That is historical Greek/Hellenic territory. The Turks moved in from around Kazakhstan or someplace. They built fearsome armies with good armor and big, tall, strong Jannisaries taken as slaves from nearby countries and used as shock troops. They were also early masters of artillery. A pretty tough fighting force. More than a match for the Greeks--on land at least. Any Turkish claim to Israel was extremely dubious, at best.

Now, Syria still thinks they own it all.

 

[bystander]

The Turks were interlopers, not just in the Levant, but also in what is now Turkey. That is historical Greek/Hellenic territory. The Turks moved in from around Kazakhstan or someplace. They built fearsome armies with good armor and big, tall, strong Jannisaries taken as slaves from nearby countries and used as shock troops. They were also early masters of artillery. A pretty tough fighting force. More than a match for the Greeks--on land at least.

So, we keep moving back in time.

Who owns Russia? The Czars heirs? Who owns the United States? The indigenous heirs? In an argument, we can take the moral position back as far as we want.

 

[Chop]

I don't think Syria has ever gotten along with us. Their tendency towards despotism makes them natural allies of the Russians.

 

[Chop]

So, we keep moving back in time.

Who owns Russia? The Czars heirs? Who owns the United States? The indigenous heirs? In an argument, we take the moral position back as far as we want.

Your practical argument--that a nation's only right to land is its ability to fight and take it, and then keep it--comes from Nietzsche. Not a nice dude, but on a practical level, this particular argument of his has some historical support.

Now the Biblical right to land relates to Israel. You won't find the border between Germany and France, the USA and Mexico, or Thailand and Burma, in Scripture.

 

[Chop]

So, we keep moving back in time.

Who owns Russia? The Czars heirs? Who owns the United States? The indigenous heirs? In an argument, we can take the moral position back as far as we want.

The Catholics used to say that Spain owns the Western hemisphere West of Brazil, and Portugal owns Brazil and the right to take, and turn Catholic, any nation in Asia.

 

[Chop]

A big turning point in all this was the Treaty of Westphalia--where the leading Nations of the West established (among other things) that all nations were treated as equals in international affairs, and you can't just conquer some other country and make it yours.

The Vatican initially disapproved, but they came around to more-or-less support it, I think.

 

[Chop]

Who owns the United States?

For Texas, if you try hard enough you can trace title back to the initial Spanish land grants, which, in turn can be traced back to the Pope's grant of this territory to the Sovereign Monarch(s) of Spain. So, ownership of your property in Texas ultimately rests on a Catholic foundation--a grant of land by the Pope.

 

[bystander]

Your practical argument--that a nation's only right to land is its ability to fight and take it, and then keep it--comes from Nietzsche. Not a nice dude, but on a practical level, this particular argument of his has some historical support.

Now the Biblical right to land relates to Israel. You won't find the border between Germany and France, the USA and Mexico, or Thailand and Burma, in Scripture.

I'm not quoting him; just trying to use logic. I know what I said is not novel but when I try to figure it out, then that's where I end up.

As for religion, it's a personal matter to me. It's between me and my belief. I don't need weapons or land to believe in a particular version of the after-life. So it does not form a legal basis or a moral justification to kill someone. Gandhi said something like this: "There are many causes I would die for but none I would kill for." That is probably a paraphrase. It's a personal point of view and it's highly idealistic in some cases, such as Hitler. The point being, to kill for a religious reason is beyond my moral code. So, we are back to the right of the Jews to that land. I get that in their world, the holocaust was the final straw; they were not going to trust anyone to care and die for their national/racial interest. But the indigenous Palestinians had nothing to do with that. It became a moral imperative for the Jews and in their mind, the world owed it to them. But is that true? Did the world owe it to them and should the world kill any Arab who attempts to overturn that decision?

Yes, my legal right to my land is built upon the force of the Constitution of the United States (in theory) and all claims prior to that are invalid. How did the Constitution come into being?

Force.

 

[Chop]

I'm not quoting him; just trying to use logic. I know what I said is not novel but when I try to figure it out, then that's where I end up.

As for religion, it's a personal matter to me. It's between me and my belief. I don't need weapons or land to believe in a particular version of the after-life. So it does not form a legal basis or a moral justification to kill someone. Gandhi said something like this: "There are many causes I would die for but none I would kill for." That is probably a paraphrase. It's a personal point of view and it's highly idealistic in some cases, such as Hitler. The point being, to kill for a religious reason is beyond my moral code. So, we are back to the right of the Jews to that land. I get that in their world, the holocaust was the final straw; they were not going to trust anyone to care and die for their national/racial interest. But the indigenous Palestinians had nothing to do with that. It became a moral imperative for the Jews and in their mind, the world owed it to them. But is that true? Did the world owe it to them and should the world kill any Arab who attempts to overturn that decision?

Yes, my legal right to my land is built upon the force of the Constitution of the United States (in theory) and all claims prior to that are invalid. How did the Constitution come into being?

Force.

"Arab" = from the Arabian peninsula. They invaded, or migrated to that portion of the Levant late in the game.

 

[Monahorns]

What people are calling the "West Bank" is in the territory of Manasseh, Ephraim, Benjamin and Isachar. But, of course, there are countless atheists who will scoff at the idea of a Deity distributing land to Tribes.

It's the atheists in charge of Israel are using the Bible cynically to justify what they are doing.

I believe in the Bible. I teach the Bible. I even believe that at the end of the age the Jewish people will live in the land.

But calling the West Bank the territory of Manasseh, Ephraim, Benjamin, and Issachar is confusing the situation. Those tribes don't exist anymore as a known entity. In fact all but Benjamin were removed from the land in the 8th Century BC by the Assyrian Empire. They never returned. The only people from those tribes who were even in the land during the life of Jesus were faithful believers from those tribes who moved to Kingdom of Judah (tribes of Judah and Benjamin) when the kingdom split after King Solomon died. I don't think it is possible today to determine which tribe current day Jews cam from.

You also have to look at the commands by God to the Jews to take over the land in Deuteronomy and Joshua. The commands aren't eternal. They are limited to a certain generation of people. The command does not apply now. They no supernatural right to take the land by force. They have the opportunity to acquire land through ethical, moral means to wait for the return of Jesus.

 

[bystander]

It's the atheists in charge of Israel are using the Bible cynically to justify what they are doing.

I believe in the Bible. I teach the Bible. I even believe that at the end of the age the Jewish people will live in the land.

But calling the West Bank the territory of Manasseh, Ephraim, Benjamin, and Issachar is confusing the situation. Those tribes don't exist anymore as a known entity. In fact all but Benjamin were removed from the land in the 8th Century BC by the Assyrian Empire. They never returned. The only people from those tribes who were even in the land during the life of Jesus were faithful believers from those tribes who moved to Kingdom of Judah (tribes of Judah and Benjamin) when the kingdom split after King Solomon died. I don't think it is possible today to determine which tribe current day Jews cam from.

You also have to look at the commands by God to the Jews to take over the land in Deuteronomy and Joshua. The commands aren't eternal. They are limited to a certain generation of people. The command does not apply now. They no supernatural right to take the land by force. They have the opportunity to acquire land through ethical, moral means to wait for the return of Jesus.

They should have just bought it. Otherwise the entire mess is tainted and the moral claims solely rest on whether or not the Jews should have been paid for the horrors of the Holocaust with that land. But again, the indigenous population had to agree and there is no moral or legal basis to force them to agree.

 

[Chop]

the indigenous population had to agree

Arabs are not the indigenous population of Israel. They came around the 5th-6th Centuries A.D. The Jews have been in Israel since 1500 B.C. or before. If you want to poll the indigenous persons of Israel, you'd poll the Jews.

Eric George: Jews are Indigenous to Israel — Indigenous Coalition For Israel

Letters to the Editor: Jews are indigenous to Israel. They're defending their homeland, not 'colonizing' it

I have a question - can we know who the Jewish people are and where they’ve come from? The answer is, Yes we can. In almost every language, other than English and French, Jews are referred to as, “the Judean people”. They come from Judea - an area incorporating modern-day Israel and the disputed West Bank. DNA testing, archaeology, and anthropological findings all confirm, that the Jewish people are indigenous to Israel.

 

[bystander]

Arabs are not the indigenous population of Israel. They came around the 5th-6th Centuries A.D. The Jews have been in Israel since 1500 B.C. or before. If you want to poll the indigenous persons of Israel, you'd poll the Jews.

Eric George: Jews are Indigenous to Israel — Indigenous Coalition For Israel

Letters to the Editor: Jews are indigenous to Israel. They're defending their homeland, not 'colonizing' it

I have a question - can we know who the Jewish people are and where they’ve come from? The answer is, Yes we can. In almost every language, other than English and French, Jews are referred to as, “the Judean people”. They come from Judea - an area incorporating modern-day Israel and the disputed West Bank. DNA testing, archaeology, and anthropological findings all confirm, that the Jewish people are indigenous to Israel.

I'm talking about who lived there in 1948.

 

[Chop]

I'm talking about who lived there in 1948.

The fact that some people may have been squatting there in 1948 does not make them indigenous.

 

[Chop]

Woah! Check this out. Mt Hermon, Israel (in the Winter). Many scholars think this mountain is the site of Jesus' Transfiguration:

Ski Israel!

 

[Chop]

More Mt. Hermon, Israel.

NOT a scene from the Catskills....!



"I approve of this joke."

 

[Chop]

Many people seem to have the mistaken view that Israel is a hot tropical sort of place. Obviously, it's not. It has a Mediterranean, mixed climate geography. In places, it's rather dry, but so is Italy, Greece, and Spain. That snow melt is a source of the Jordan River.

 

[Monahorns]

Arabs are not the indigenous population of Israel. They came around the 5th-6th Centuries A.D. The Jews have been in Israel since 1500 B.C. or before. If you want to poll the indigenous persons of Israel, you'd poll the Jews.

Eric George: Jews are Indigenous to Israel — Indigenous Coalition For Israel

Letters to the Editor: Jews are indigenous to Israel. They're defending their homeland, not 'colonizing' it

I have a question - can we know who the Jewish people are and where they’ve come from? The answer is, Yes we can. In almost every language, other than English and French, Jews are referred to as, “the Judean people”. They come from Judea - an area incorporating modern-day Israel and the disputed West Bank. DNA testing, archaeology, and anthropological findings all confirm, that the Jewish people are indigenous to Israel.

This is propaganda. If you mean those who were the first ethnicity to live in that geographic area, which is the only real world definition for the world; then that would be the various Canaanite tribes. Perrizites, Jebusites, Hivites, etc.

The people we call the Palestinians aren't specifically Arab. They share way more DNA with the ancient Hebrew people than the Ashkenazis which started the state of Israel in 1948. Even the Sephardim are more Jewish genetically. You may call them Arabs, they speak that language, but genetically they are basically descendants from ancient Semitic peoples, many of whom are directly descended from the Jewish people we read about in the Bible.

 

[Chop]

This is propaganda. If you mean those who were the first ethnicity to live in that geographic area, which is the only real world definition for the world; then that would be the various Canaanite tribes. Perrizites, Jebusites, Hivites, etc.

The people we call the Palestinians aren't specifically Arab. They share way more DNA with the ancient Hebrew people than the Ashkenazis which started the state of Israel in 1948. Even the Sephardim are more Jewish genetically. You may call them Arabs, they speak that language, but genetically they are basically descendants from ancient Semitic peoples, many of whom are directly descended from the Jewish people we read about in the Bible.

Don't let the facts stand in the way of your stubborn narrative. You seem to always look for any excuse to dismiss the Jewish people.

"Myth Number 1

Today’s Jews are European. They are not from the Middle East.

Science has destroyed this argument. European Jews - known as Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, share the Cohenite gene specific to the Levant, an area that includes modern Israel. And, the Mizrahim, or Jews who spent their exile in neighbouring Arab countries, make up more than half the current population of Israel. Many are descendants of the 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab lands around 1948. Their genetics, are also, identifiably, Jewish. So, based on DNA alone, Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel. "


Eric George: Jews are Indigenous to Israel — Indigenous Coalition For Israel

 

[Chop]

Ashkenaz was son of Gomer, grandson of Japheth, and great-grandson of Noah. His people's lands (Germany/Poland/Low Countries) were once highly welcoming to the Jews. Not so much in the last several centuries though.......... Of course, there was some interbreeding, that's natural. But, per the DNA evidence, the Ashkenazi have the Cohenite (Jewish) gene. Why wouldn't they? It doesn't surprise me.

Here's an interesting aside. Redheads are all over the place in the historical leadership classes of the Middle East area. Tradition has it that the following were (natural) redheads: St. Peter (of Capernaeum, Galillee--less than 50 miles from Nazareth), King David, and more. Interestingly enough, the Islamic religion comes right out and says that Muhammed had red hair. Supposedly, so did Pharaoh Ramses II. Perhaps the ancient people thought that redheads had some special abilities or something. It's weird how the modern world seems to pick on them unfairly.

 

[Monahorns]

Don't let the facts stand in the way of your stubborn narrative. You seem to always look for any excuse to dismiss the Jewish people.

"Myth Number 1

Today’s Jews are European. They are not from the Middle East.

Science has destroyed this argument. European Jews - known as Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, share the Cohenite gene specific to the Levant, an area that includes modern Israel. And, the Mizrahim, or Jews who spent their exile in neighbouring Arab countries, make up more than half the current population of Israel. Many are descendants of the 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab lands around 1948. Their genetics, are also, identifiably, Jewish. So, based on DNA alone, Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel. "


Eric George: Jews are Indigenous to Israel — Indigenous Coalition For Israel

I'm not dismissing anything. You also don't address the things I actually say. You strawman what I say argue against that. I never said that Ashkenazis don't have any Jewish genetics. I said that the Palestinians actually have more than the Ashkenazis. The Sephardics are in the middle, more than Ashkenazis, but less than Palestinians.

All these groups share common ancestry and genetics. It is sad that they are fighting so bitterly.

 

[Chop]

I'm not dismissing anything. You also don't address the things I actually say. You strawman what I say argue against that. I never said that Ashkenazis don't have any Jewish genetics. I said that the Palestinians actually have more than the Ashkenazis. The Sephardics are in the middle, more than Ashkenazis, but less than Palestinians.

All these groups share common ancestry and genetics. It is sad that they are fighting so bitterly.

It goes back to Ismael.

 

[Mr. Deez]

The pro-Hamas side certainly has more lunatics on it.

 

[mchammer]

The pro-Hamas side certainly has more lunatics on it.

Why are they wearing masks?

 

[Run Pincher]

Why are they wearing masks?

Too shameful to show their faces.

 

[bystander]

I think we're getting way into the weeds. I understand the begat confusion exists and all that from Ishmael and who's semitic and who's Arab is beside the point. We have the Jews/Zionists and we have the people who oppose them (i.e. Muslims? Palestinians?). The rest of it just confuses the issue. As for the word indigenous, I use it in the sense of those who occupied Palestine before 1948. The Balfour Declaration (attached) uses the term, non-Jewish communities in Palestine. I will use that term henceforth.

 

[Chop]

A big turning point in all this was the Treaty of Westphalia--where the leading Nations of the West established (among other things) that all nations were treated as equals in international affairs, and you can't just conquer some other country and make it yours.

The Vatican initially disapproved, but they came around to more-or-less support it, I think.

Here's a re-enactment...

 

[Chop]

What has to happen for a lasting peace is for some English Lord to take a map and draw a bunch of borders, creating new countries out of the Middle East.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Why are they wearing masks?

It signals righteousness to other left wing idiots - same reason they're showing solidarity with Hamas in the first place.

 

[Monahorns]

Wrote this when all this sparked off.

"No Good Guys"
Disgusting words of violence
Squelch peaceful words to silence
Call for bombs and death and gore
NBC news shouts war war war!
Dead moms, dead kids, Israeli bombs
Rich men tell lies to TV men
TV men tell lies to soccer moms
Dead babies in Gaza don't matter then
Neocons dehumanize every Arab mom
Leftist Republicans drown in sin
War pigs beat, war pigs beat war toms
When will the bloodshed end?
When Premill King Jesus descends
Makes Jews and sinners His friends
Sits on David's throne and wins
the whole world to His righteousness
I still hear words of violence
Squelch peaceful words to silence
Call for bombs and death and gore
Christian stand now, be anti-war
Protect moms and kids from bombs,
Holy God make armies of godly men.