Impeachment

[Joe Fan]

Fiona Hill, due up today, previously compared the Trump election to a “contemporary American version of a Bolshevik revolution.” Probably not a complement but its always hard to tell with lefties and the Russians.

Hill is the former director of the liberaal Brookings Institute's "Center on the United States and Europe." This is a "think tank," among other things, openly opposed to Trump’s policy of America First. Despite all of that, she then accepted a job with the Trump Admin on NSC staff.

 

[Horn6721]

These midlevel career people come across as angry and bitter because things weren't handled they way THEY think it should be.
They all claim to want Ukraine to be able to defend themselves yet don't seem concerned that Obama sent rations and blankets while Trump sent weaponry

 

[horninchicago]

This whole thing, once again, can be summed up like this: A bunch of career government workers can't stand that Trump is changing how things are done. That's it. Their feelings are hurt. They don't know why the money to Ukraine was help up. So what? That seems to give them, in their minds, reason to oust him.

 

[horninchicago]

@Horn6721 I think we were saying essentially the same thing. They are all hurt that Trump doesn't do it their way.

 

[bystander]

I mean there's at least some truth there. I don't think it's Nazi's/racists. I think it's my team/your team. He could literally gun down someone on 5th avenue and not be convicted in that senate.

Well I would hope not (gun someone down). I can assure you I am not that far out there. I just listen to the insults and that's where I got my characterization. There's a man I've "known" for years (like many of you here) that I've never met. He runs a Liberal chat website. He is very intelligent and informed on many issues. He calls Trump "Twitler." He's a black Puerto Rican and once told me that my stance on illegal immigration (from south of the Rio Grande) was me turning my back on my people (he knows I'm half Cuban). That is his sincere opinion. My people. From another country. I should support them in anyway I can regardless of US law. I believe his comment was flat-out racism but he just laughed me off. He has plenty of fans too. All over this country.

 

[horninchicago]

So, Holmes, at an outdoor restaurant in Kiev, clearly heard Trump on a phone that was not on speaker phone. At an outdoor restaurant. This guy, in his opening, already comes across as butt hurt about HIS Ukraine policy not being followed.

 

[Joe Fan]

Fiona Hill also worked with Christopher Steele 2006-09 (see below). She came into the Admin the same time McMaster brought Eric Ciaramella to the West Wing
Also today is David Holmes who worked NSC's Ukraine desk under Susan Rice. He is also buds with Eric Ciaramella

 

[Horn6721]

I can't believe this dude has publically recounted a conversation he supposedly overheard between POTUS and an Ambassador.

 

[bystander]

Sounds like... it's obvious that... I presume... I heard somebody said that somebody said... everybody knew it...

Not direct evidence.

 

[horninchicago]

I hope the Republicans and Counsel are reading @Joe Fan's posts today and know the backgrounds of these two "witnesses".

Holmes just sounds like a guy trying to keep the status quo and upset Trump would dare attempt to marginalize the way things are done.

 

[Joe Fan]

Some recent polling that shows which networks "independents" watch --
Only 5% watch MSNBC and 6% watch CNN
I would probably have guessed higher for those two
https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000016e-80c0-d93d-ad6f-8ef254ad0000

 

[Joe Fan]

The bombshells are turning out to be nonshells

 

[Horn6721]

Twit comes to mind when I look at that well twit

 

[horninchicago]

I'm tearing up thinking about Ukranians right now hoping for a friend in the United States.

Wow, what a cry baby that guy appears to be.

 

[OUBubba]

I can't believe this dude has publically recounted a conversation he supposedly overheard between POTUS and an Ambassador.

No one pissed about poor operation security of using a cell phone in such a way? The Russians have the call transcripts of any call Sondland made from Kiev.

 

[Joe Fan]

I'm tearing up thinking about Ukranians right now hoping for a friend in the United States.
Wow, what a cry baby that guy appears to be.

Holmes is a direct witness to nothing
All he has is rumor or news articles
As I keep mentioning, in a real court hearing, he would not be allowed to testify

(there are limited exceptions when non-facts witnesses are allowed to take the stand such as expert opinion or sometimes the credibility/reputation of the defendant but none of those exceptions are present here)

 

[Joe Fan]

No one pissed about poor operation security of using a cell phone in such a way? The Russians have the call transcripts of any call Sondland made from Kiev.

They were all drinking too (not a joke)

 

[horninchicago]

Ms. Hill does not disprove what I say. "I am the Russian expert brought in to help the President get along with Putin" type of mentality. Again, she perceives Trump isn't doing things her way, so she will help to make him look he held up "much needed" aid that Obama never sent in a criminal way.

 

[Joe Fan]

If nothing else, the testimony of these good folks has been able to confirm the opinion of most normal Americans that State Dept bureaucrats have both an inflated sense of their own importance and fragile professional egos

And they definitely do not have an understanding of who, under the Constitution, is responsible for setting US foreign policy towards Ukraine, or anywhere else. That responsibility does not fall to "interagency consensus"

 

[horninchicago]

If nothing else, the testimony of these good folks has been able to confirm the opinion of most normal Americans that State Dept bureaucrats have both an inflated sense of their own importance and fragile professional egos

Can't remember who I heard say it or maybe it was on here, but someone said yesterday that it all boils down to that when Trump, or whoever the POTUS is, leaves after 4 or 8 years, they are still in their career positions and so the POTUS better follow their advice because only they know how to deal with these other countries. We can see the result of a President not following their talking points.

Now, Shifty and Hill are making claim that Russia, I guess, is manipulating Trump and the Republicans into thinking Ukraine meddled in 2016. That weakens Ukraine and will allow Russia! to bolster itself and weaken the US.

I never knew our entire being weighed so heavily on Ukraine.

 

[I35]

This falls flat based upon the fact that the prosecutor that was not invsestigating Burisma at the time is the one that the free world wanted to replace. Bringing in a new prosecutor was like shuffling the deck a little and it might have led to a new prosecutor who would investigate them. It actually highlights that, while it may have been inappropriate, there was nothing "untoward" going on.

Do you have a link that he wasn’t investigating Burisma. I’ve read different.
Ex-Ukraine prosecutor said he was told to back off probe of Biden-linked firm, files show

Also did you know within the last year we’ve had 4 country’s that were delayed aid besides Ukraine? One of them is Lebanon. Did you know Lebanon and Ukraine were approved at the same time and as of right now Lebanon still doesn’t have the aid promised? Bubba, why aren’t your liberals investigating that? Ukraine got their money on Sept 11th.

 

[Joe Fan]

More on the Biden Crime Family --

"An investment firm linked to Hunter Biden received over $130 million in federal bailout loans while his father Joe Biden was vice president and routed profits through a subsidiary in the Cayman Islands, according to federal banking and corporate records reviewed by the Washington Examiner.

Financial experts said the offshore corporate structure could have been used to shield earnings from United States taxes....
* * *
Joe Biden was a key advocate for the financial bailout .... "
​

(italics and bolds are mine)
Hunter Biden-linked company received $130M in special federal loans while Joe Biden was VP

 

[Joe Fan]

Were the Kardashians really brought up?

 

[OUBubba]

Do you have a link that he wasn’t investigating Burisma. I’ve read different.
Redirect Notice.

Also did you know within the last year we’ve had 4 country’s that were delayed aid besides Ukraine? One of them is Lebanon. Did you know Lebanon and Ukraine were approved at the same time and as of right now Lebanon still doesn’t have the aid promised? Bubba, why aren’t your liberals investigating that? Ukraine got their money on Sept 11th.

If a reason to delay aid is to further US interests, then I have no problem. If the reason is to try to get involvement into US partisan politics or a Trump property, then that's wrong.

 

[Joe Fan]

Fiona Hill --

“Ill keep this short, it’s best if I just answer your questions.”

“So anyway, it all started when my great great great grandpa was born in northeast England, in the same town as George Washington...”​

It's like she is not there to testify but rather pen her autobiography

 

[OUBubba]

Do you have a link that he wasn’t investigating Burisma. I’ve read different.
Ex-Ukraine prosecutor said he was told to back off probe of Biden-linked firm, files show

Also did you know within the last year we’ve had 4 country’s that were delayed aid besides Ukraine? One of them is Lebanon. Did you know Lebanon and Ukraine were approved at the same time and as of right now Lebanon still doesn’t have the aid promised? Bubba, why aren’t your liberals investigating that? Ukraine got their money on Sept 11th.

Timeline: Key dates in the U.S. political controversy over Ukraine

It was "dormant".
Biden told this story publicly. If he were doing anything illegal don't you think he wouldn't bring it up?

 

[bystander]

Holmes is a direct witness to nothing
All he has is rumor or news articles
As I keep mentioning, in a real court hearing, he would not be allowed to testify

(there are limited exceptions when non-facts witnesses are allowed to take the stand such as expert opinion or sometimes the credibility/reputation of the defendant but none of those exceptions are present here)

As the esteemed @Mr. Deez (I'm not trying to kiss your ***; really, I'm not) stated sometime back: an impeachment is a political process. As such, I believe we as the hapless people are in general hopes that statesmanship and care will be exercised. There appears to be no accommodation for precedent in process. There appears to be no process at all. The only guideline is what the American people will bear. In other words, see you at the polls.

My greatest fear is that impeachment has now become a tool to be abused. It has lost it's sacred honored last resort option to remove a criminal from office. You can say the Republicans abused it when Clinton was President and I'm sympathetic to that argument because I believe it was a POLITICAL mistake to impeach him regardless of the underlying proof positive of his lying under oath (I don't care what he was lying about).

The standard should be Watergate from the outcome point of view. Nixon resigned. He was cooked and he knew it. The country knew it. We all agreed for the most part and it was a political tragedy for our country to see it happen. It was scary and unsettling.

We don't need that UNLESS the evidence is clear and present. Otherwise it's nothing but a coup.

 

[bystander]

If nothing else, the testimony of these good folks has been able to confirm the opinion of most normal Americans that State Dept bureaucrats have both an inflated sense of their own importance and fragile professional egos

And they definitely do not have an understanding of who, under the Constitution, is responsible for setting US foreign policy towards Ukraine, or anywhere else. That responsibility does not fall to "interagency consensus"

Totally agree about their inflated self-worth. That is the fear I have about socialism (however it's defined). I've said it before; the practical evidence of socialism is the growth of the bureaucracy or to drill down: People such as we are learning about in this impeachment "process."

 

[OUBubba]

As the esteemed @Mr. Deez (I'm not trying to kiss your ***; really I'm not) stated sometime back: an impeachment is a political process. As such, I believe we as the hapless people are in general hopes that statesmanship and care will be exercised. There appears to be no accommodation for precedent in process. There appears to be no process at all. The only guideline is what the American people will bear. In other words, see you at the polls.

My greatest fear is that impeachment has now become a tool to be abused. It has lost it's sacred honored last resort option to remove a criminal from office. You can say the Republicans abused it when Clinton was President and I'm sympathetic to that argument because I believe it was a POLITICAL mistake to impeach him regardless of the underlying proof positive of his lying under oath (I don't care what he was lying about).

The standard should be Watergate from the outcome point of view. Nixon resigned. He was cooked and he knew it. The country knew it. We all agreed for the most part and it was a political tragedy for our country to see it happen. It was scary and unsettling.

We don't need that UNLESS the evidence is clear and present. Otherwise it's nothing but a coup.

I would respond that you'd be correct IF Bolton, Pompea, Mulvaney, etc. would respond to subpoena's or if they would release the notes that people like Ambassador Taylor had made on these topics then you'd be correct. They're not doing so.

 

[OUBubba]

As the esteemed @Mr. Deez (I'm not trying to kiss your ***; really, I'm not) stated sometime back: an impeachment is a political process. As such, I believe we as the hapless people are in general hopes that statesmanship and care will be exercised. There appears to be no accommodation for precedent in process. There appears to be no process at all. The only guideline is what the American people will bear. In other words, see you at the polls.

My greatest fear is that impeachment has now become a tool to be abused. It has lost it's sacred honored last resort option to remove a criminal from office. You can say the Republicans abused it when Clinton was President and I'm sympathetic to that argument because I believe it was a POLITICAL mistake to impeach him regardless of the underlying proof positive of his lying under oath (I don't care what he was lying about).

The standard should be Watergate from the outcome point of view. Nixon resigned. He was cooked and he knew it. The country knew it. We all agreed for the most part and it was a political tragedy for our country to see it happen. It was scary and unsettling.

We don't need that UNLESS the evidence is clear and present. Otherwise it's nothing but a coup.

If you don't think this is more damning that what happened at the Watergate hotel, then I don't know what to tell you. That event had NO foreign government involved. There were no shady non governmental cutouts like Rudy or Fraud Guarantee used. There were no security funds for a country in a hot war used as leverage. It was ham handed but it was simple, pure political subterfuge.