Hawkings on God the Big Bang

Thanks for the nice words. Right back at ya.

I do have a question. If 2,000 years ago someone walked around saying the world was round with ZERO scientific evidences, and all the scientific world (not that there was a huge scientific community) stating the world is flat... what would you think of that guy?

Well, I don't know how to answer that without appearing to be all weasely. The whole "scientific method" thing didn't come about until much later, i.e., the process that separated science from philosophy and religion and all that. So, we didn't really have "science" back then like we have science now. But, to answer your question, the guy who went against the science at the time would have operating from an inferior position according to my methodology.

So, it seems that your saying that because science has changed its view on flat earth/round earth (to use that example) it will also change its view on... what, exactly? Evolution? The earth revolving around the sun? Or are you saying that science will prove god? Or even that science will prove that one needs Jesus to get to heaven?
 
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.

But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

I Corinthians 1:18-31
 
Yes, each religion's holy text will undoubtedly contain passages attesting to its "truth" and ability to save the adherent, if that religion has a salvific element.
 
RayDog:

Is it rational to insist that nothing exists except what is known to be true?
 
The fact is that evolution and scientific discovery are mutually exclusive from God or the belief in the supernatural.

They have nothing to do with eachother materially. Anyone who is Athiest becaue of science is misguided in my opinion. Believing in God as absolutely nothing to do with whether evolution is real or whether there was a big bang.

Science serves a purpose, as does expanding the human mind and understanding the way in which the world exists. As someone who believes in God, I think it is a slap in the face of God to diminish scientific discovery out of a fear that it is somehow anti-God. I believe that God gave us a brain, and we should therefore use it.

Creationism is all fine and dandy, but it MUST corespond with what we know to be true scientifically. I know there continue to be debates about evolution, but believing in Evolution should not keep someone from believing in God. It has nothing to do with believing in God.
 
But thats just it RayDog. Belief in God has nothing to do with science. Why does there have to be a scienfic explanation to believe in God?

Believing in God is mutually exclusive from science. How the world works and understanding the physical properties of the universe just doesnt have anything to do with God.
 
How the world works and understanding the physical properties of the universe just doesnt have anything to do with God.


Says you. To me it has a lot to do with god.
 
By "we know all we need to know" I mean that all the fundamental puzzle pieces are known. At this point we only need to piece the puzzle together in a logical manner. Or, to be more precise, the rest of the physics community has to recognize what I already know and take it from there.

It is all very simple. There is no rational reason to try to make it more complex than it is.
 
Raydog, even the most brilliant physicists put faith into their theories. There are some things that right now just cant be proven, but scientists swear by them anyway.

Still, in the end, it has nothing to do with belief in a higher power.

And to Perham, I would agree with you that the magnificence of the universe convinces me there must be a God, but science in of itself doesnt have to "prove" there is a God.

The inner workings of a computer or a car engine are mutually exclusive to believing in God. Knowing how and why they work from a physical perspective is great, but it doesnt mean theres no God simply because we understand the physical workings of them.

Likewise, understanding the principals of the universe only explains things physically, by means of our physical perceptions and limitations as such.

I agree with Coel's analysis. We are always learning. We can never know all we need to know. Our foundation is always going to be altered based on what we continue to learn.

Being athiest or not believing in God because you think you understand how the universe works is to me short sided. If you believe there is no God, thats great, no quarrels, but just my opinion, it shouldnt be because of science.
 
But just a little christian education for you - Christianity doesn't save people because they are faithful adherents.

On the contrary, that's exactly the reason offered why Christianity saves people. You need to believe in Jesus as your savior, and people who do this are your "faithful adherents". You don't have to actually DO anything to get saved, according to Christianity. Death bed confession? Check. Sincere? (as if anyone can say conclusively it's not sincere) Check.
 
Depends on your sect...

By sect I assume you mean denomination. Most, in fact the large majority, follow the John 3:16 rule.

Baptism is not a requirement, again by the majority of denominations. And even if it is a requirement, there are plenty of loopholes so the whole baptism "requirement" is pretty bogus.

No, the point remains that Christianity pretty much only requires that one be a "faithful adherent".

Confession - I assume you're speaking of Catholicism. You're saying that Catholics (if that is the "sect") requires confession? So people go to hell if they are not up to date on their confessions? Can we get a clarification on that from a Catholic expert?

We are in agreement that this whole "need Jesus to wash away mans' sins in order to get to heaven" is heroically flawed and absurd.
 
No need to quibble, I agree.

It is not an unreasonable statement to say that Christianity sentences one to everlasting torment for being guilty of what is essentially a thought crime. You don't believe what they do and (according to Christians) you go to hell. Forever.

But (as displayed in the thread about christians dating non-christians) most people get over this sort of strict interpretation as they age. The ones who don't are the ones who remain active in the fundamentalist, literalist type of church.
 
To bring it back around to the original topic... if the explanations provided by religion taken as fact don't gibe with observation while the mechanisms offered by a religion are unnecessary it is not illogical to simply disregard them, which was Hawking's overtly provocative point no doubt offered as such in order to move books. He's no dummy.
 
not to derail but as far as salvation some of you are wrong. the catholic catechism says that the path of salvation is open to all those who embrace the one true god, amongst them are the muslims (or something very close to that).
also, most any christian would say moses is in heaven. he wasn't christian. then, like another poster said, some require works with faith....
but carry on....
 
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