Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
"Grab them in the *****" sells more than Chelsea Clinton is a spoiled brat? Shocked that conservative organization like Media Research Center would be reporting this revelation!
General Presidential Campaign: Trump vs Hillary
- Thread starter mchammer
- Start date
"Grab them in the *****" sells more than Chelsea Clinton is a spoiled brat? Shocked that conservative organization like Media Research Center would be reporting this revelation!
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Kudos to Mike Pence for countering a woman calling for "revolution" if HRC wins the election. Pence has some sense in ensuring the rhetoric doesn't get out of control.
Clean
5,000+ Posts
I was merely trying to point out to Horns11 that it didn't matter who the Republican candidate was, he or she was going to get the "treatment", like Quayle and Pence and Romney and all the rest. It's the "R" beside their name that they don't like. The media is largely composed of yellow dog democrats.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Can we all agree that Trump has been an easy target? The problem isn't finding material but rather in choosing which controversies are most impactful. As Deez points out, Trump has a history of sexist comments that the average R primary voter didn't care about. Given he had the support of Brietbart wind behind his sails, Trump wasn't really vetted until the general election.
From a performance standpoint could there be an easier target than Hillary?Her disregard for our national security while taking in hundreds of millions,her disregard for national security by having a private server, her disregard for a subpoena by deleting ,scrubbing and destroying evidence.
How can anything Trump said be more harmful to our country.
A real media should have been all over her cropping on the country.
How can anything Trump said be more harmful to our country.
A real media should have been all over her cropping on the country.
Hillary is an easy target, but Trump is even easier.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
What it shows is that, in modern American, what was actually done does not matter.
The only thing that does matter is who did it.
Everything subsequent flows from this initial question.
It's all about the who, not the what
Yes, but Hillary isn't losing - because of the media.
Hillary isn't losing because of Trump.
We're not a very deep people. Are you just now figuring this out?
I35
5,000+ Posts
I got to disagree on this one. If the media was completely fair Trump would be up by a lot. Because the media picks and chooses what to make an issue. Last election they chose to go after how rich Romney was. Then the 47% comment came in and they ran with it. Romney was going up against the worst President to date with failure after failure and couldn't beat him. Think about that knowing Hillary said Trump supporters are a "basket of Deplorables" that can't be redeemed, Bernie Sander supporters as a "Bucket of Losers", and now Bubba saying Trump supporters are "Rednecks." Between Bernie and Trump supporters that's got to be more than 47%. Then her top staff went after the Catholics in the email and nothing reported but on Fox. The 90% of the media are silent on those subjects.
Yes Trump gives them more ammunition but think of it this way....... The media contributed to get Trump past those other 16 candidates and then went full looney with attacks on everything they could in the general. The media played the GOP like fools. What I do agree with is certain GOP primary candidates could have got past the media to beat Hillary, but no way all the other 16 could. I actually believe only Rubio and Kasich could have beaten Hillary with the Media on her side. Maybe 2 or three others. I feel this or 2020 will be our last chance for the GOP to win the Presidency ever in our lifetime. Because it's very discouraging for them to have the worst candidate in history that has that bad of a record of corruption can beat anybody. But you are underestimating their power and influence on the ignorant.
If the media actually liked Trump they would have said it's old news that happened 11 years ago. But what if the media said look at Hillary wanting open borders and in doing that will allow ISIS in the US and they will be trying to cut our heads off. The 90% of the media has more power than anything in the word. They control the narrative. There is only one time that I can think of that the media started on a crusade and let it go and that would be the name "Redskins" in the NFL. But I promise they will come back to it.
Hillary would be getting a much rougher ride were it not for who her opponent is. Had a mainstream main street republican been nominated she would be behind in the polls and be roasting on a spit courtesy of the media. She is so uncharming and such a palpable liar that only a really bad opponent saves her.
Take into consideration Nixon in 1968; he was not popular but the press bought into ''the new Nixon" schtick because everybody was so pizzed at the dems over Viet Nam and the race riots. The press largely looked past Nixon's obvious character weaknesses and bought into, at least a bit, the idea that he had somehow matured, etc.
Once he got into office he started getting the ride and it only got worse. Hillary is likely to win this election but she is going to have a congress that is at least half republican and a whole lot of rightist republicans who hate her with a passion. She is not going to get her agenda, whatever it may turn out to be, off high middle. She is going to be a stymied president, just like Kennedy was. And like Kennedy was, she is going to be accused and harassed for everything she has done or said and for many things she hasn't.
Yesterday at the meat market the checkout geek was regaling me with stories of how she murdered Vince Foster, etc. This was after I told him I was not voting for either of these two footscrapes. She is going to get it worse than her husband did.
Take into consideration Nixon in 1968; he was not popular but the press bought into ''the new Nixon" schtick because everybody was so pizzed at the dems over Viet Nam and the race riots. The press largely looked past Nixon's obvious character weaknesses and bought into, at least a bit, the idea that he had somehow matured, etc.
Once he got into office he started getting the ride and it only got worse. Hillary is likely to win this election but she is going to have a congress that is at least half republican and a whole lot of rightist republicans who hate her with a passion. She is not going to get her agenda, whatever it may turn out to be, off high middle. She is going to be a stymied president, just like Kennedy was. And like Kennedy was, she is going to be accused and harassed for everything she has done or said and for many things she hasn't.
Yesterday at the meat market the checkout geek was regaling me with stories of how she murdered Vince Foster, etc. This was after I told him I was not voting for either of these two footscrapes. She is going to get it worse than her husband did.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
That's what is getting lost in all the fracas. The R's walked into this election with every advantage.
1. HRC as a D candidate. She was pre-ordained as the candidate yet entered the race within a cloud of controversies (Benghazi, Email scandal). Additionally, she had a built-in unlike-ability component that fed a grassroots campaign for Bernie Sanders that pulled her to the left in the primary.
2. Democrat POTUS fatigue. A year ago Obama was viewed pretty poorly. Only after the 2 major candidates has his approval rate risen to 55%.
3. "Change" momentum. Trump and Bernie are examples of the strong desire for "new".
The R's had all the advantages and still screwed it up. It's mind-boggling how that occurred. Rather than pointing the finger at the media some need to point the thumb back at their support for the worst POTUS candidate in a generation.
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Seattle Husekr, I hate to agree, but you're correct. This was the GOP's election to lose - and they found a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Any acceptable GOP candidate would wipe Hillary out in the election - but we managed to find the one unacceptable candidate.
Horns11
10,000+ Posts
Then you either underestimate the GOP or overestimate the media. This isn't a "media vs. GOP" quest, because that's just not new. And it won't be new in 2020 either. This is entirely a "GOP vs. itself" problem. There ARE mainstream Republicans who could have taken Hillary to the woodshed on issues of reliability, likeability, honesty, respect, shady deals, immigration, etc. BUT... those GOP members are mired in the House or Senate or Governor's offices because they're not tea-party-ish enough to win a national primary. The more "Alex Jones" your mainstream candidates become, the less likely they are to hold court.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
No candidate is getting away with the Access Hollywood comments. You're downplaying the depravity of the comments. The fact that Donald can't simply say "I said it and I was profusely wrong and I apologize" exacerbated the issue. He said that then put a giant ******* BUT on the end of it. BUT it was "lockerroom talk". BUT "Bill Clinton said worse". BUT "ISIS chopping off heads". All the BUT's demonstrate a lack of remorse.
Meanwhile, Trump's new strategy is to question the "crooked polls". When Bill O'Rielly pointed out to him that he was losing with women last night Trump's response was "I don't believe that". One has to wonder what Kellyanne Conway's response was behind closed doors when the Access Hollywood tape broke. On some level, she had to think WTF kind of candidate am I pushing.
And deservedly so!
Hillary's getting no free ride. Actually, I think Trump gets by with a lot. His untruths, his bizarre attacks on people that don't matter much and serious business issues (stiffed contractors ... and not just on bankrupt projects,) the Trump University scam and his weird behavior at the Miss Universe Pageant and on the set of the Celebrity Apprentice, not to mention his taped bragging about using his position to sexually assault women ... heck a fraction of those problems would have derailed an ordinary candidate.
Bringing up things a candidate says with his own mouth is fair, and if what that candidate says is nutty, it's fair to make an issue out of it.
Your hatred for Obama severely undermines your ability to be objective. Obama was a MUCH tougher opponent than Hillary Clinton is, and the circumstances and issues of 2012 were far more favorable to Democrats than they are in 2016. It's not even close.
Gee, why do you think the media helped Trump in the primary? Two reasons. (1) Ratings. (2) They knew (and everybody with a brain knew) that he'd be by far the easiest opponent for HRC to beat.
All would have done significantly better than Trump. However, Carson, Jeb!, Mike Huckabee, Lindsey Graham, and Rick Santorum also would have lost. Ted Cruz and Chris Christie would have been close calls - probably 50-50 chances. The rest (even minor candidates like Jim Gilmore, Bobby Jindal, et al.) would have beaten her.
I don't underestimate their power and influence. They make an impact and can impact elections. My point is that Trump is such a dumpster fire that it wouldn't matter. And if the GOP primary voters keep pissing on mainstream candidates, it will be the end.
Free ride? Nobody gets a totally free ride, but if she was a Republican, she'd be getting it ten times worse. Nobody would simply accept her apology over the e-mail server and try to summarily dismiss it as an issue. Nobody would care how the leaked e-mails were discovered. They'd focus on what the e-mails say. They'd pull up the crap she said back in 2008. When she tries to hang Trump with the birther stuff, they'd bring up what she did, and they'd bring up the "hardworking white Americans" comment. They'd never let **** like that slide from a Republican. The language would be harsher. We'd hear terms like "inconsistency" or "inaccuracy" a lot less and "lies" a lot more. And the public and private positions comment? That would get shoved up her *** every day.
The contractor thing is the biggest red herrring. Trump literally has hired thousands of contractors. You are going have problems with at least 10% of them. Anyone who has hired contractors would know this. A good percentage of them do bad work, behind schedule, and overcharge. You are delusionsal if you think all of them are saints.
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Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
Maybe.
From my perspective, Hillary is the most overtly corrupt person to ever run for President, and yet 51-55% of American voters just dont seem to care.
I think we are reaching the end of the road.
-----------
The Cycle of Democracy from "The Athenian Republic" by Dr. Alexander Tytler (written before the US had won independence)
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury.
"From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:
"From bondage to spiritual faith;
from spiritual faith to great courage;
from courage to liberty;
from liberty to abundance;
from abundance to selfishness;
from selfishness to apathy;
from apathy to dependence;
from dependency back again into bondage."
Before we assume the country is irredeemable and predict the apocalypse, I'd like to see the public presented with an alternative who has more maturity and discipline than a 21 year old drunk guy at a strip club.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
If a majority votes for Hillary, knowing what she is, then its too late.
Sorry to be the one to have to tell you
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
The many Wikileak releases show that not only did Hillary and her campaign have connections with members of the press who were willing to slant coverage for her and write favorable stories, she also received preferential treatment from the State Department, from Obama, the Department of Justice, and most probably the FBI.
Several people have made the point that Trump isn't very knowledgeable about many things a Presidential candidate should have a handle on. He doesn't have a strong grasp of the Constitution, he isn't really familiar with the various branches within Islam, the difference between Shia and Suni and what Wahhabism is. Trump's understanding of economics is questionable, his temperament volatile, and he tends to repeat himself during speeches and often talks in circles. In short, he is unqualified to be President.
Hillary on the other hand is very qualified. She understands how the mechanism of government and how diplomacy is suppose to work. She has decades of expience, and has loyal contacts throughout the government agencies and intelligence departments as well as foreign contacts.
Given Hillary's evident qualifications and Trump's suspect qualifications and past behavior, you may ask why anyone would vote for Hillary over Trump?
To make an analogy, consider the powerful Energy Company of the 1990's known as ENRON. The leaders of the company were bright, energetic, very qualified men who had connections throughout government and the corporate world. They had hundreds of loyal employees underneath them and subsidiary companies that were part of their operation. But it was a criminal organization that eventually ruined the lives of hundreds of people. The men that led the company were sociopaths consumed with greed.
When I look at Hillary Clinton I see the same pathology that caused the fall of ENRON. The Clinton Foundation is a criminally funded machine used primarily to accumulate political power. Obama and Clinton have purged a significant number of high ranking intelligence and military personnel in order to implement the current foreign policy fiasco. I think it's evident to anyone paying attention that the DOJ and State Department higher offices are staffed with people of questionable integrity. That probably holds true in other government agencies as well. And this trend will continue and worsen once Hillary is in the White House
ENRON collapsed and the perpetrators were prosecuted. We know that no matter what illegality turns up, Hillary Clinton will never face prosecution. The only chance to extract a semblance of justice is to see that her power is taken away. Unfortunately, that means putting an unqualified candidate in Donald Trump into the oval office. This is a dilemma the country must face and there is no good answer. My gut tells me Hillary is the worst choice.
Several people have made the point that Trump isn't very knowledgeable about many things a Presidential candidate should have a handle on. He doesn't have a strong grasp of the Constitution, he isn't really familiar with the various branches within Islam, the difference between Shia and Suni and what Wahhabism is. Trump's understanding of economics is questionable, his temperament volatile, and he tends to repeat himself during speeches and often talks in circles. In short, he is unqualified to be President.
Hillary on the other hand is very qualified. She understands how the mechanism of government and how diplomacy is suppose to work. She has decades of expience, and has loyal contacts throughout the government agencies and intelligence departments as well as foreign contacts.
Given Hillary's evident qualifications and Trump's suspect qualifications and past behavior, you may ask why anyone would vote for Hillary over Trump?
To make an analogy, consider the powerful Energy Company of the 1990's known as ENRON. The leaders of the company were bright, energetic, very qualified men who had connections throughout government and the corporate world. They had hundreds of loyal employees underneath them and subsidiary companies that were part of their operation. But it was a criminal organization that eventually ruined the lives of hundreds of people. The men that led the company were sociopaths consumed with greed.
When I look at Hillary Clinton I see the same pathology that caused the fall of ENRON. The Clinton Foundation is a criminally funded machine used primarily to accumulate political power. Obama and Clinton have purged a significant number of high ranking intelligence and military personnel in order to implement the current foreign policy fiasco. I think it's evident to anyone paying attention that the DOJ and State Department higher offices are staffed with people of questionable integrity. That probably holds true in other government agencies as well. And this trend will continue and worsen once Hillary is in the White House
ENRON collapsed and the perpetrators were prosecuted. We know that no matter what illegality turns up, Hillary Clinton will never face prosecution. The only chance to extract a semblance of justice is to see that her power is taken away. Unfortunately, that means putting an unqualified candidate in Donald Trump into the oval office. This is a dilemma the country must face and there is no good answer. My gut tells me Hillary is the worst choice.
I think some voters hope to survive Clinton and vote for another Republican in 4 years. I would rather survive Trump for 4 years. Matter of taste I suppose.
It's just freaking tragic. In my lifetime there has never been a GOP primary with so many qualified candidates and somehow the reality TV show host gets nominated!
Horns11
10,000+ Posts
It's only tragic if you're a person who believes that moderates don't deserve to get shut out of the GOP primary process. Like I said earlier, there are church-going moderates out there who might not be in lock-step with the platform on gay marriage and actually funding federal agencies like the Departments of Education and Commerce and HUD. These people can win a national election. They can't win an Alabama primary where the main selling point is a wall.
The moment Tea Partiers realize that Joe Fan's prediction of utter demise for the foreseeable future might come to fruition, they'll abandon the Alex Jones and Breitbart crazies and start to support socially-moderate, fiscally-conservative, less-government-is-only-good-if-we-keep-promises-government, intelligent critical thinkers of the non-mainstream GOP and actually win some national elections.
The moment Tea Partiers realize that Joe Fan's prediction of utter demise for the foreseeable future might come to fruition, they'll abandon the Alex Jones and Breitbart crazies and start to support socially-moderate, fiscally-conservative, less-government-is-only-good-if-we-keep-promises-government, intelligent critical thinkers of the non-mainstream GOP and actually win some national elections.
We hear that every election cycle. I think we're more resilient than that. However, if that ends up being true this time, you can thank a Trump supporter.
Since Trump's campaign is fizzling out, he's starting to attack conservatives more than Hillary Clinton is. They may just not want to back somebody who's attacking them. In addition, if Trump wins (which is pie in the sky at this point), it'll stain the whole party. It's already happening, but it'll be easier to fumigate the place if he loses than if he wins.
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