Duncan's Legacy

Of course I saw Jordan, play...

But what I saw tonight was 1 vs 4-5 (an elite D 4-5) and the 1 scoring at will during the late quarter. The triangle offense was discarded, it was replaced by: the give Kobe the ball, see him dribble for 16 seconds and move the **** away offense.

Show a performance of similar magnitude in a game of similar magnitude and we will talk.
 
Did you watch the 1993 Finals? Pick a game. I can think of 10 games off the top of my head where Jordan was easily more impressive than Kobe was tonight.

1991 Finals Game 2 (13 consecutive shots)
1992 Finals Game 1 (6 3's in first half)
1993 Finals Game 5 (completely dominated the second half)
(MJ avg over 40 ppg in 1993 Finals)
1996 Finals Game 1 (absolute brilliance)
1997 Finals Game 5 (Flu game)
1997 Finals Game 1 (winning shot at buzzer)
1997 Finals Game 6 (Pippin out and Jordan destroys)
1998 Finals Game 2
1998 Finals Game 6
1993 Finals Game 2

These are all games in the Finals and off the top of my head. That doesn't even include the other playoff series. Can you say Knicks Game 6 in 1993? How about Indiana Game 7 in 1997? The Washington Series in 1996 when he went over 50 in every game.

Like I said before, just another night for MJ.
 
It is no surprising you confused what I said, I was not talking about good games, Kobe has had plenty (I will post a list tomorrow to compare)

What I stated was that those 8-10 points to hold off the Spur's run, on Bowen's face, on Duncan's face etc. Is remarkably impressive, unstoppable even. The offense was give the ball to Kobe and let him handle it ALONE (of course screens) for the rest of the game, that is the type of game I am looking to compare with. Not 40 ppg nights that are dime a dozen.
 
The Detroit Pistons team is different in that it doesn't go down as any one players title in my opinion.

It was a collaborative effort of 4 or 5 guys who had been or were all stars, not what I'm talking about.

Duncan's 2003 team probably was most like Hakeems 94 title- just a hall of famer by himself without even any all stars (nobody was playing on that level yet).

He did have a fellow hall of famer Robinson with him, correct? Obvviously, he wasn't playing anywhere near peak level.

If you want to say 2003 was as close to a one man team led title as 94 I probably don't have any real problem with that. I would say the level of play in 94, with the Jazz near their apex, sir charles kicking butt, the spurs really good with Robinson around the peak of an NBA career and the knicks at their nastiest was better than the league as a whole in 03, but I'd certainly listen to counter opinions.

I think the league is in phenominal shape and has been the last couple years and into the future.

I think the league is near as good right now as it was in the mid 80's to mid 90's, which was it's high point.

I don't have a ton of respect for the guys that came out in the 90's. I think the 80's and 00's players starting their careers compare more favorably.

Mid to late 90's s you had Kobe, Duncan, KG and who else of note starting their careers? And Kobe and KG were really freaking raw right out of high school. Shaq and Duncan were the only guys really ready to go right away, and shaq was early 90's.

Those high draft picks in the stevie franchise mold almost killed the game. It's in much better hands now, imo.
 
There is the list of top NBA players as composed by BasketballReference.com using statistics:

1. Bill Russel
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Bob Pettit (26.4 ppg, 16.2 rpg career ave, 10-time 1st team NBA)
8. Bob Cousey
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Tim Duncan
11. Karl Malone
14. Kobe Bryant
16. Allen Iverson
17. Hakeem Olajuwon
20. Julius Erving
21. David Robinson
37. Scottie Pippin
106. Tony Parker
162. Manu Ginobli
198. Pau Gasol
 
Well, Bill Russell wasn't exactly chopped liver. 5-time NBA MVP. 11 NBA Titles, including 8 IN A ROW over 13 seasons!!! The year after he retired, the Celtics didn't even break .500. Dude averaged 22.5 rebounds for his entire career. His position at #1 could certainly be argued.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar also could be mentioned over Jordan. 6x MVP, 6x NBA Champion, 3x NCAA Champion, huge array of career NBA records.

BTW - Here are the Hall of Fame ratings of players on other "dynasties". It is amazing how stacked the Lakers and Celtics teams were of the 80s. Lots of big names on there. The Chicago team did indeed have a solid list of supporting players. Much more so than the LA Lakers of the 2000s.

Chicago Bulls
4. Michael Jordan
37. Scottie Pippin
129. Dennis Rodman
185. Horace Grant
249. Bill Cartwright
285. B.J. Armstrong
286. Tony Kukoc
353. Steve Kerr

LA Lakers (1999 - 2003)
9. Shaquille O'Neal
14. Kobe Bryant
205. Robert Horry
320. Derek Fisher
339. Rick Fox
610. Devean George

LA Lakers (1979 - 1990)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
28. Bob McAdoo
71. James Worthy
93. Jamaal Wilkes
110. Norm Nixon
209. Michael Cooper
217. Byron Scott
448. Kurt Rambis

Boston Celtics (1980 - 1986)
6. Larry Bird
56. Robert Parish
66. Tiny Archibald
68. Kevin McHale
92. Dennis Johnson
276. Scott Wedman
284. Danny Ainge
292. Cedric Maxwell

San Antonio Spurs (1999 - Present)
10. Tim Duncan
21. David Robinson
106. Tony Parker
162. Manu Ginobli
190. Michael Finley
278. Sean Elliott
400. Avery Johnson
411. Brent Barry
552. Bruce Bowen (underrated for 5-time 1st Team Defense)
589. Antonio Daniels
662. Malik Rose
 
^^^

Not to mention Magic was a rook...trying to win a world championship by hybridizing PG skills with the 5 slot in an attempt to fill the absence of a HoF player. That effort was mammoth.

Kobe is a top 15 or so guy right now. If he leads the Lakes to a title or two, I would elevate him considerably. But he just doesn't shoot as well as Jordan (understanding that Kobe has made many impressive game winners, etc.) and he doesn't get to the rim as well, either. I would not say that he can't reach Jordan's level, and I would not be surprised to see the sports media make some hay by having x-number of talking heads take up a position suggesting that Kobe might be as good or better should he win several more titles. Nonetheless, unless his shooting % stays about where it has been for the '08 playoffs, and unless some of the other aspects of his game improve, he will not match Jordan. Nevermind that he almost assuredly cannot match Jordan's impact on the game, for better of for worse.

I am surprised that anyone thought Bryant's impressive, but not-jaw-dropping, effort to close the Spurs brings to mind Jordan. Hell, as someone noted, James closing Detroit by scoring almost all of Cleveland's last 30 points, through overtime, while being tripled much of the home stretch, was well beyond what Kobe did in Game 6.
 
How about MJ's 63 points against the Celtics in the play-offs.
That was when the Bulls really were MJ and 4 guys, he single handly kept the Bulls in the series. Boston won but MJ kicked some ***.
 
[pre]
Career FG PPG RPG APG SPG
Jordan 0.497 30.1 6.2 5.3 2.35
Bryant 0.453 25 5.3 4.6 1.5

Playoff
Jordan 0.487 33.4 6.4 5.7 2.1
Bryant 0.447 24.2 5.1 4.6 1.3
[/pre]
If you just look at stats alone, Jordan owns him. The gap widens if you look at playoff games only.

Kobie's clutch, but he's not the first person that comes to my mind with regards to all time most clutch performance. IMHO he's not even second, or third. Jordan, Bird, Magic all comes before Kobie.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen moves from Kobie where I'd go wow wtf! Kobie's great and I don't doubt when it's all said and done he may end up top 10 all time. Maybe he'd even surpassed Jordan in my book (EDIT: I take that back, not going to happen). But I don't think you fully appreciate the greatest of Jordan, Bird, Magic.
 
Okichi,
Nice post and if Jordan had not played for the Wizards he would have shot over 50% for his career. Kobe has never had a single season where he shot 50%. Jordan had 7 or 8.
 
Again, Jordan's stats are inflated based on the years he was just a gunner (meaning he lost games), and when the league played no defense

Here are his Chicago numbers under the triangle and when the league started to play defense.

90-91 .539
91-92 .519
92-93 .495
94-95 .411
95-96 .495
96-97 .486
97-98 .465

Kobe since the triangle

99-00 0.468
00-01 0.464
01-02 0.469
02-03 0.451
03-04 0.438
04-05 0.433
05-06 0.450
06-07 0.463
07-08 0.459

The stats are pretty consistent (although lower average than Jordan).

Now the reason why this happens is because Kobe is more of a jump shooter (he has shot twice as many 3 pointers as Jordan), while Jordan was more of a post player (relative to each other).

To finish it is clear why the disparity happens statistically, you include Kobe's stats when he entered the league from highschool while Jordan's early stats are way over inflated (you cannot possibly tell me he got WORSE as he reached his championship peak, and that is exactly what the stats say). The league simply changed after the bad boys.

Jordan is a GOAT because of his championships (in the modern era), he would be the first to tell you he would trade his early meaningless stats for a few more.
 
Hippie,
Are you kidding with the "when the league played no defense" stuff? They changed the rules to disallow any contact on the perimeter. That's why the league is dominated by guards now. If Jordan played today, he would be even more unstoppable. His numbers are vastly under-represented in this comparison to Kobe. Imagine how many jumpshots Kobe would settle for if people were actually allowed to hand check him?
 
Whatever rules changes were made the statistical difference has not been documented. There are tons and tons of statistics (by every single player) to at least attempt to show it.

That said back then EVERYBODY scored more than 100 points on the 86 Celtics, during the playoffs there was only a single game where they held an opponent to less than 95!The Link Jordan scored 63, but the Bulls scored 131 points that day (and still lost).

Just to compare the opponent average of the Spurs was 90. That is how much the league has changed.
 
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