Debate Thread

I never realized how big an a-hole Kaine is. The Clinton campaign is in total Hail Mary mode with the uneducated democrat base. When your answer about Aleppo is Trump's utilization of tax law, you have nothing to offer.

And that moderator could not have been worse. She freely allowed Kaine to interrupt and talked over Pence all night. This country is in serious trouble when the media is biased for a corrupt politician. Add in the FBI Director, Dept of Justice, and the IRS, and you have a recipe for a dictator. Hopefully, the military remains uncorrupted.
 
Hollandtx said:
After watching this "conversation" I now understand how an 8 year old kid whose parents need to get a divorce must feel, hiding in the closet while they argue.
So much interrupting, and disrespect, though I give Pence his props for not clobbering Kaine after the 38th interruption. I don't think Kaine added much to HRC's "likeability" score. But Pence shaking his head, with his sad smile face didn't do much for Trump either.
It will be forgotten in 48 hours.

The only possible impact, in my very humble opinion, is if, on the off chance, college age women watched and were freaked out by Pence's strong anti-abortion, have your baby and give it up for adoption comments. That message would send a few to HRC's side, but I don't think many watched. It was hard to sit through.
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'I wonder how many Democrat voters knew that Kaine was pro-life? The way Pence smoothly exposed him may switch a few votes, or keep a few more Democrats at home on Nov.8.

Kaine's explanation that he supports the law over his personal values when it comes to abortion was interesting. I wonder why he doesn't support the law requiring the export of illegals over his personal preference for votes.
 
iatrogenic said:
'I wonder how many Democrat voters knew that Kaine was pro-life? The way Pence smoothly exposed him may switch a few votes, or keep a few more Democrats at home on Nov.8.

Kaine's explanation that he supports the law over his personal values when it comes to abortion was interesting. I wonder why he doesn't support the law requiring the export of illegals over his personal preference for votes.
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I respectfully disagree with both of these candidates when it comes to abortion. For me, and I suspect the vast majority of pro-lifers, abortion (specifically) has nothing to do with Christianity or religion directly. Life is a common sense natural right that is a founding principle in the Declaration of Independence. To me, religion plays no more a part of my perspective on that then religious arguments for or against waterboarding or global warming. There are topics which for me as a Catholic are narrowly defined by religion...like gay marriage. In that case, I apply the same perspective Kaine does. It would go the same way for any orthodox Jewish politican...I don't expect everyone to eat fish on Fridays and Jewish polticians don't prohibit cheeseburgers, crawfish boils, and pork ribs.

The problem I have with Kaine is that he doesn't have the sense to know the difference between what are narrow religious constructs and what are social problems. That's a red flag for an opportunist poltician. It would be a different story if he said he disagreed with the Church's position on abortion. There are a lot of Catholics that disagree with the Vatican on several issues, but he doesn't.

And for a Catholic public servant who says he struggles the most with death penalty issues as opposed to abortion makes me want to vomit. I am also against the death penalty but if you're a Catholic the seriousness between the two aren't comparable.

It just makes me question this guy's sincerity about who he is, his values, and what motivates him. Pence, to me is very sincere in his words and actions and there is an easy connection for voters to see between his faith (what he says motivates him) and his work. Trump, as ugly as he is, is very candid and unfiltered. He doesn't pretend to be Rev Billy Graham but comes across as sincere when he says he's grateful for the support of Evangelicals. At the end of the day he comes across as exactly what he is...a fed up New York City billionaire real estate developer. And billionaire New York real estate developers say stupid very poltically incorrect things all the time.
 
I have to admit I knew nothing about Kaine before last night. I didn't even know what he looked like, but now I know all I need to know.

I always thought Donald was an arrogant prick, but Kaine takes it to a whole new level. Kaine is nothing but a walking douche.
 
Run Pincher said:
I have to admit I knew nothing about Kaine before last night. I didn't even know what he looked like, but now I know all I need to know.

I always thought Donald was an arrogant prick, but Kaine takes it to a whole new level. Kaine is nothing but a walking douche.
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Ha. I'm not a fan of Kaine, but last night really wasn't how he typically carries himself. He's the definition of blah...like the anti-Biden.
 
Run Pincher said:
but Kaine takes it to a whole new level. Kaine is nothing but a walking douche.
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With HRC's past health issues I couldn't help thinking how insane it would be to vote this yapping bag of douche an even worse HRC fall away from running the country.

Normally VP's are seen as a longshot to ever take office and it's easy to bypass mentally trying them on for size as POTUS.

With HRC any reasonable person must acknowledge it's a real possibility we could enter President Kaine territory. What a cluster that would be.

Regardless if it's his norm or not, it was the biggest stage of his life and he was an annoying, ineffective clown even facing a civil, respectful opponent.
 
I thought neither of them were respectful. Kaine with his interruptions, and Pence with his smirks and 151 "no" head shakes. Kaine tried to redirect the premise of every question to something stupid Trump has said/done, and while irritating, Pence didn't exactly do his presumptive boss any favors by saying anything other than "absolutely not."

As the Princeton consortium and fivethirtyeight put it, Pence got the style points, but if anyone takes the "post-debate debate" seriously, it's not difficult to post old Trump tweets and quotes that back up exactly what Clinton and Kaine have attempted to stick to a wall the past couple weeks.
 
I just finished watching the debate. I've been familiar with both of these guys for several years and generally like them, so instead of drinking beer all night and taking the candidates less and less seriously as the debate wears on, I drank hot tea (spiked with some chestnut liqueur) and actually listened to the whole debate. (It's 40 degrees here.)

Both of these guys had tough jobs - to defend and advocate for the least popular nominees in a century, but I think Pence was significantly better. Kaine, frankly, acted a lot like the guy he was demonizing (Trump). He was a bit sassy, interrupted way too much, and spent too much time acting like a prick and too little time talking issues. He just seemed petty, and that was out of character for him.

Pence had to defend the indefensible, and he did it about as well as it could be done. He toned down and explained away Trump's dumber comments at least to the extent that one reasonably could. He didn't spend the whole night ripping Clinton, but when he did, he made it count and stated his case well. (One exception - the "whip[ping] out the Mexican thing" comment is going to get some negative attention.) Furthermore, he did redirect Kaine's attacks back onto issues or onto Hillary to the extent that he could.

Both guys were rhetorically sharp and disciplined - not a lot of stammering and stumbling over their words like Trump did. My suggestion to Trump would be to get Pence out there as much as he can. He's a far better advocate and spokesman for the ticket than Trump is. In fact, one thing that would secure my vote would be if Trump promised to resign as soon as he took office.
 
I watched as much as I could stand. Both of these guys were polished and well prepared. They knew how to take a question and transition into talking points. As seasoned politicians, they did not get flustered by anything that was said. Pence's demeanor and temperament is 180 degrees opposite from that of Trump. These debates of course, are 99% performance art and maybe 1% substance. Even if you thought they performed equally well, I believe Trump gained simply because Pence showed the public that someone on the ticket could control themselves and remain cool under fire.

Part of Clinton's strategy is to paint Trump as a Russian sympathizer and Putin apologist. Pence turned the table on that charge by managing to outdo Kaine on Russia bashing.

Pence continued the establishment lies of stating Russia invaded Georgia, Ukraine, and Syria. Although these are falsehoods, the US and Western allies take them as facts and it plays well. Then he suggested we expand our missile defense system to Czechoslovakia. I got the impression that, at least in terms of foreign policy, Pence is just another neocon. Should Trump win, and then die in office, having Pence take over the Presidency would amount to the same thing as having Hillary in office as far as the Pentagon, CIA, and State Department are concerned.

At that point in the debate I couldn't take any more of the blatant hypocrisy. I'd seen enough.
 
“America’s economic system is superior to the crony capitalist system of Russia in every way” - Mike Pence 2016

“Russia’s economic system is superior to the crony capitalist system of America in every way” - Joseph Stalin 1946 (Not a real quote, but I got a kick out of Pence saying that. We win a long cold war to get Russia to adopt captalism and now we are complaining and ready to start a new cold war 25 years later because we do not like the form of capitalism Russia adopted.)

I agree with much of the above posters. I came out of this debate really disliking Kaine and not wanting to see Kaine anywhere near the white house.
 
Perhaps the only good deliverable of a Donald Trump nomination will turn out to be the exposure to Pence. Very articulate and intelligent. I was really impressed. I had a higher opinion of Kaine before his convention speech. Last night's performance was a real embarrassment for him. He came across as a petulant child.
 
One exception - the "whip[ping] out the Mexican thing" comment is going to get some negative attention.
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The fact that Pence had that flub and still came out as the consensus winner says a lot about Kaine.
 
Joe Fan said:
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Sounds pathetic, but this doesn't bug me too much, because of the particular show. Steve Harvey's show isn't a serious political forum. It's a relaxed setting built around guest comfort and giving Harvey a chance to look funny. He'd probably let Trump see his questions too.
 
Turns out the little girl was the daughter of a Pennsylvania democrat and child actor. Smacks of WWE fare.

Everything about Hillary is fake, from her phony persona of good health, to what comes out of her mouth. Everything is staged and rehearsed to give a certain appearance, not to give any incite into what she really thinks. Her "basement talk", where she calls Bernie Sanders' supporters "barristas living in their Mom's basements, who want free education and free medical care" and Trump's supporters "deplorables" is the only honest thing I've heard her say. That, of course, was never intended to become public.

Hillary has way too many filters and Trump doesn't have enough.
 
Race Bannon vs Moe? There's a mismatch.

I hadn't thought about Johnny Quest in a year or forty.
 
#3 is in the books. Who won?

I'd say Hilldog won. Trump needed to change the dialog to immigration, the economy, Obamacare, or anything but "Trump the Candidate" and he didn't. All people want to talk about today is will he or won't he "accept" the results of the election. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
 
At this point there is nothing Trump can do to win. By now, everyone realizes Hillary is running as the candidate fueled by a criminal enterprise and she still leads. I don't think it matters in the slightest what new revelations turn up via Wilileaks or FBI freedom of information releases. America is going to choose a lying, treasonous, criminal over a politically incorrect narcissist. Priorities.
 
I agree that Trump has little chance of winning. He has run the absolute worst general election campaign that I could have imagined. At some point I expected that he would back off on attacks (especially against fellow Republicans) and focus on what he wanted to accomplish. Last night was more of the same. He spent more time attacking Hillary than actually talking about his vision.

I think the best thing for the Republican party is for Trump to lose big as a lesson for the idiots who voted for him in the primary. He also needs to be weakened so he does not sabotage the conservative movement in the future. We will need to take our lumps for 4 years with a Hillary presidency and regroup in 2020. If we nominate a half decent candidate then Hillary will be a one termer.
 
When the debate briefly turned to tax policy, Hillary pledged not to raise taxes on those families under $250,000 (or somewhere around that figure). This morning, ZeroHedge posted an article referencing a proposal by a Clinton backer representing a Blackstone Hedge Fund to increase the payroll tax by 3% to create a retirement account which of course would be a Wall Street windfall.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...ew-tax-funnels-middle-class-money-wall-street

We will have to wait and see if Hillary pursues the public policy or the private policy. Care to take a bet?
 
It all seems very simple to me. Hillary is in "The Club" and Trump is not. "The Club" includes Dems and GOPers. "The Club" must be protected at all costs and outsiders must be kept out, that is why Dems and Reps and the Media hate Trump and he must be destroyed. The Media is not in "The Club", but they are dutiful toadies for club members.

Very few of us are in "The Club". You either want to support "The Club" and keep it going, or you want to break it up. Trump is not the perfect guy to break up "The Club", but he's what we have. You go to battle with the army you have, not the army you wish you had.

Are you going to keep "The Club" going? Or try to break it up? Personally, I want to break it up and I will take my chances with Trump. If HRC wins, "The Club" will only get stronger.
 
mchammer said:
Trump +3 in Rasmussen, +1 in TIPP, and +0.6 in LA Times polls
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So, knowing that fivethirtyeight got 50/51 correct in 2012, and the Princeton Election Consortium got 51/51 correct in 2012, are you willing to say that the 2016 is so unpredictable that these two popular polling aggregates are going to be "more wrong" than Rasmussen, TIPP, and the LA Times?

Or, are you just cherry picking the ones that don't show HRC up by 7+?
 
Phil Elliott said:
It all seems very simple to me. Hillary is in "The Club" and Trump is not. "The Club" includes Dems and GOPers. "The Club" must be protected at all costs and outsiders must be kept out, that is why Dems and Reps and the Media hate Trump and he must be destroyed. The Media is not in "The Club", but they are dutiful toadies for club members.

Very few of us are in "The Club". You either want to support "The Club" and keep it going, or you want to break it up. Trump is not the perfect guy to break up "The Club", but he's what we have. You go to battle with the army you have, not the army you wish you had.

Are you going to keep "The Club" going? Or try to break it up? Personally, I want to break it up and I will take my chances with Trump. If HRC wins, "The Club" will only get stronger.
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The answer is to nominate someone who isn't in "The Club" and isn't Donald Trump. But you're going to need to wait until 2020.
 
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