Comey and Mueller

[Joe Fan]

Much of this 37-page doc reads like a clown show
Here, Mueller makes charges about rallies that either did not take place or for which no one attended

 

[Joe Fan]

Here is one of the rally promotions which got the Russian troll farm indicted
Some posters here may have attended one of these rallies?
If so, you were an unwitting stooge in Russia’s effort to undermine Trump

 

[Garmel]

This is making me think that Mueller has nothing on Trump and that he's trying to justify this investigation with these Russian indictments.

 

[Joe Fan]

This is making me think that Mueller has nothing on Trump and that he's trying to justify this investigation with these Russian indictments.

MSNBC's Jonathan Alter tells us the Russian troll stuff was an "attack ... as bad as Pearl Harbor."

 

[Joe Fan]

FWIW, Michael Moore promoted one of the Russian troll marches listed in Mueller's indictment

 

[Joe Fan]

I have looked around for a good source of the actual Russian ads that were bought and run, but they are not that easy to find

There is a collection of them in this WAPO video (they wont let you embed their in-house vids)

http://bit.ly/2z6NdoV

 

[ProdigalHorn]

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[Joe Fan]

Here is the video of Obama in December 2016, after the election

He states the DNC was hacked (which might not be true as it was probably an inside job). Nonetheless, he concedes the "hacking" and news “manipulations were not particularly sophisticated. This was not some elaborate, complicated espionage scheme.” Yet here we are 14 months later still going nuts about Russia “meddling.”

Obama also openly admits he did not want to elevate the issue of "leaks" (Russia) for piltical reasons. He did not want questions raised about the integrity of the elections “at a time when Trump was raising questions about the integrity of the elections”

 

[UTChE96]

The irony of this situation is that the Democrats have helped the Russians accomplish exactly what they were trying to do - sow political discord and division in the US. The Russian internet trolls probably didn't imagine in their wildest dreams that they would be this successful.

 

[Joe Fan]

The irony of this situation is that the Democrats have helped the Russians accomplish exactly what they were trying to do - sow political discord and division in the US. The Russian internet trolls probably didn't imagine in their wildest dreams that they would be this successful.

Obama said back then that when you talk about Russia and the purported “hacking of the DNC” you are helping undermine the integrity of the elections which is the goal of the hackers/Russia.

Thus, if Obama is correct and we apply his rule (and some people do believe that he has never been wrong) then CNN/MSNBC are basically spending their days attempting to undermine our democracy

 

[OUBubba]

I heard on a podcast that McConnell told Obama that if he came out and talked about Russia before the election that he'd call it politicizing. All the while, he had politicized Supreme Court seat in the manner that he did. Our system is broken.

 

[Joe Fan]

I heard on a podcast that McConnell told Obama that if he came out and talked about Russia before the election that he'd call it politicizing. All the while, he had politicized Supreme Court seat in the manner that he did. Our system is broken.

You seem to have gone silent on something you used to post a lot about -- the "hacking" of the DNC, supposedly by Russians. What gives?

Is it because you see that nothing in Mueller's indictment remotely backs up the idea that Russia hacked the DNC/Clinton campaign? This claim was one of the central allegations that led to this now massive Mueller investigation. You may have even called it the "crime of the century?" Where are the indictments of these evil hackers?

There arent any.

What do we have instead?
We have a few show pony indictments -- with no arrests and no arrests likely. Of whom? Of an unprofessional bunch of trolls from 2014. And? And a Russian bakery. None of whom are alleged to been Russian state actors. On top of that, none of this behavior had any impact on the 2016 election.

All this brings up a new business idea I thought of for you. A new burger chain -- Bubba's Nothingburgers
Good luck

 

[ProdigalHorn]

I heard on a podcast that McConnell told Obama that if he came out and talked about Russia before the election that he'd call it politicizing.

You and your iron-clad sources. Your wife, some podcast you heard. If only you could get Media Matters to weigh in!

 

[OUBubba]

You seem to have gone silent on something you used to post a lot about -- the "hacking" of the DNC, supposedly by Russians. What gives?

Is it because you see that nothing in Mueller's indictment remotely backs up the idea that Russia hacked the DNC/Clinton campaign? This claim was one of the central allegations that led to this now massive Mueller investigation. You may have even called it the "crime of the century?" Where are the indictments of these evil hackers?

There arent any.

What do we have instead?
We have a few show pony indictments -- with no arrests and no arrests likely. Of whom? Of an unprofessional bunch of trolls from 2014. And? And a Russian bakery. None of whom are alleged to been Russian state actors. On top of that, none of this behavior had any impact on the 2016 election.

All this brings up a new business idea I thought of for you. A new burger chain -- Bubba's Nothingburgers
Good luck

I'm sure that relates to this: https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/19/politics/russia-obama-trump/index.html

They'll roll someone up who will validate things. It's odd that Trump is doing this now. A weekend at Mar a lago with no gold wasn't good for his mental state.

I don't think I ever said "crime of the century". I did say it was bigger than Watergate and I think that will bear out.

 

[OUBubba]

You and your iron-clad sources. Your wife, some podcast you heard. If only you could get Media Matters to weigh in!

I think a teacher who's taught in high school, college and in prison is a unique reference point when discussing SCHOOL shootings. If you don't then you can ignore it as is your right but don't act like it's irrelevant. It's like saying a preacher shouldn't be asked about his thoughts on gay marriage.

 

[ProdigalHorn]

It's like saying a preacher shouldn't be asked about his thoughts on gay marriage.

That's actually a great parallel, because it's easy enough for you to go find one who agrees with you, quote him, and say "there you go, that proves it!"

There are too many teachers who disagree with her for me to believe that being a teacher gave her the insight she now has. People have world views that cause them to see things through certain lenses, and I'm sure her experiences did the same. I'm not discounting that, and she's certainly welcome to her opinion. But you knowing a teacher that believes what you believe isn't evidence that you're right and other people are wrong.

We have a staff of salespeople who absolutely refuse to use our lead gen system. They refuse because they've always done it the other way, and they don't want to change and don't think they need to change. We don't say "well, they're sales people, and they're doing it, so they MUST be right." People by definition resist doing things differently They fear the unknown and the unconventional. Sometimes they're right, and sometimes they're wrong. It doesn't prove anything.

 

[OUBubba]

That's actually a great parallel, because it's easy enough for you to go find one who agrees with you, quote him, and say "there you go, that proves it!"

There are too many teachers who disagree with her for me to believe that being a teacher gave her the insight she now has. People have world views that cause them to see things through certain lenses, and I'm sure her experiences did the same. I'm not discounting that, and she's certainly welcome to her opinion. But you knowing a teacher that believes what you believe isn't evidence that you're right and other people are wrong.

We have a staff of salespeople who absolutely refuse to use our lead gen system. They refuse because they've always done it the other way, and they don't want to change and don't think they need to change. We don't say "well, they're sales people, and they're doing it, so they MUST be right." People by definition resist doing things differently They fear the unknown and the unconventional. Sometimes they're right, and sometimes they're wrong. It doesn't prove anything.

So, no one's opinion is valid, correct? I'd think in this scenario you'd like a multi-disciplinary approach. Teacher, cop, school security expert, BUDGET people, etc.

 

[I35]

So, no one's opinion is valid, correct? I'd think in this scenario you'd like a multi-disciplinary approach. Teacher, cop, school security expert, BUDGET people, etc.

Bubba you are a funny fella. You are very consistent on being all over the place.

 

[ProdigalHorn]

So, no one's opinion is valid, correct?

Who said anything about people's opinions being invalid? Validity and authoritative weight are two different things.

I'd think in this scenario you'd like a multi-disciplinary approach. Teacher, cop, school security expert, BUDGET people, etc.

Sounds great, provided you don't cherry-pick the ones that agree with you. And as mentioned, just because someone is in one of those positions doesn't mean their general ideas on policy haven't been already shaped or at least directed by other influences.

 

[Joe Fan]

Nunes sent a letter to Sessions explaining how the FBI may have violated federal law and procedures with regard to the Carter Page FISA application

 

[Joe Fan]

How do we explain how how some of the Govt people involved in this matter have been removed -- namely Mike Kortan, David Laufman, Sally Yates, James Rybicki and Andrew McCabe
while some of the other Govt people have not been removed? ...

 

[NJlonghorn]

Nunes sent a letter to Sessions explaining how the FBI may have violated federal law and procedures with regard to the Carter Page FISA application

Nunes did a good job of showing how Page may have violated the FBI's procedures. This should be investigated, and it might lead to evidence of a crime. But he did a crap job of demonstrating that Page may have committed crimes, and his letter suggests that he is more interested in pegging something -- anything -- on Page than his is in pursuing the truth.

Three of the 5 crimes he suggested are completely irrelevant:

18 USC sec 242 -- for this to apply, there would have to be evidence that the FBI targeted Page "on account of [his] being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race".

50 USC sec 1809 -- this prohibits conducting electronic surveillance without a search warrant. Having a warrant is an absolute defense.​

conspiracy -- I assume he is referencing this statute, which criminalizes "conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States." So there has to be a conspiracy to commit some other Federal offense, not just a "conspiracy". Nunes's suggestion of conspiracy as a standalone is meaningless. (The statute also applies to a conspiracy to defraud the United States, but that isn't at issue here.)​

The fourth crime Nunes mentioned is obstruction of justice. This isn't a single crime. Rather, there are many Federal statutes that make up the umbrella category "obstruction of justice". I'm not sure which of these may apply (maybe perjury?), but it seems to be worth looking at.

The final crime Nunes mentions is contempt, which is probably the best of his suggestions. But contempt is very hard to prove and it is generally (always??) raised by the judge, not the FBI, so a letter asking the FBI to pursue it makes little sense.

 

[Joe Fan]

I was living and working in DC back then
Gertz was one of the 'must reads' at the time

 

[Joe Fan]

Nunes did a good job of showing how Page may have violated the FBI's procedures. ....

Does not appear you read that letter very carefully. In it, Nunes makes no allegation about Page whatsoever. What he does allege, as I stated in the orig post, is that the FBI itself may have violated federal law as well as the rules and procedures set out (by DOJ) governing FISA applications.

The way I read the letter to Sessions, generally, is that Nunes is setting up the legal framework for a parallel prosecution within DOJ with OIG Michael Horowitz (since IGs themselves may not bring charges). My best guess is that this has already been done and prosecutors are already working in tandem with Horowitz. I say this because Nunes seemed to be suggesting as much in his memo (See parts about Ohr and Priestap -- how did any testimony from them get in the memo when neither the House nor Senate has taken it?). And also because it would be the smart way to proceed so I hope this is what they are doing.

As to the potential illegality, it a crime for a federal official acting under color of the law to willfully deprive a person of a right protected by the Constitution. 18 USC §242 here deals with using the color of law to conduct a targeted investigation based on the pretext of law enforcement. 50 USC §1809 here deals with surveillance conducted under color of law in a manner not authorized by FISA.

Nunes asked for answers from Sessions by March 8. But he had already sent out a list of 10 questions to various federal officials. They have until tomorrow to answer, before he sends out another round of subpoenas. As Ive mentioned earlier, this will be Brennan, Clapper, Panetta, Rice and maybe Powers.

 

[Joe Fan]

WAPO on McCabe -- he approved improper/illegal leaks and got caught intentionally misleading the IG

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...47dd2df3829_story.html?utm_term=.92f53147dc29

 

[Joe Fan]

Go figure

"The Australian diplomat whose tip in 2016 prompted the Russia-Trump investigation previously arranged one of the largest foreign donations to Bill and Hillary Clinton’s charitable efforts, documents show.

Former Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer’s role in securing $25 million in aid from his country to help the Clinton Foundation fight AIDS is chronicled in decade-old government memos archived on the Australian foreign ministry’s website.

The money was initially allocated to the Clinton Foundation but later was routed through an affiliate of the charity known as the Clinton Health Access Initiative (CHAI), officials said. Australia was one of four foreign governments to donate more than $25 million to CHAI, records show.

Downer, now Australia’s ambassador to London, provided the account of a conversation with Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos at a London bar in 2016 that became the official reason the FBI opened the Russia counterintelligence probe.

But lawmakers say the FBI didn’t tell Congress about Downer’s prior connection to the Clinton Foundation. Republicans say they are concerned the new information means nearly all of the early evidence the FBI used to justify its election-year probe of Trump came from sources supportive of the Clintons, including the controversial Steele dossier...."​

http://thehill.com/376858-australia...rompted-fbis-russia-probe-has-tie-to-clintons

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[Joe Fan]

Sessions let the SOL expire on Clapper

Former intelligence chief James Clapper is poised to avoid charges for allegedly lying to Congress after five years of apparent inaction by the Justice Department.

Clapper, director of national intelligence from 2010 to 2017, admitted giving “clearly erroneous” testimony about mass surveillance in March 2013, and offered differing explanations for why.

Two criminal statutes that cover lying to Congress have five-year statutes of limitations, establishing a Monday deadline to charge Clapper, who in retirement has emerged as a leading critic of President Trump...."​

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...-for-clearly-erroneous-surveillance-testimony

 

[I35]

Sessions let the SOL expire on Clapper

Former intelligence chief James Clapper is poised to avoid charges for allegedly lying to Congress after five years of apparent inaction by the Justice Department.

Clapper, director of national intelligence from 2010 to 2017, admitted giving “clearly erroneous” testimony about mass surveillance in March 2013, and offered differing explanations for why.

Two criminal statutes that cover lying to Congress have five-year statutes of limitations, establishing a Monday deadline to charge Clapper, who in retirement has emerged as a leading critic of President Trump...."​

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...-for-clearly-erroneous-surveillance-testimony

Sessions seems to be on vacation every since he was appointed.