Caucus for Torah Values

[LonghornCatholic]

No one is more humble than you.

You forgot.....and handsome.

 

[horninchicago]

You forgot.....and handsome.

I didn't forget, I thought I would let His Humbleness tell us.

 

[LonghornCatholic]

Purgatory is a theological supposition and not official church teaching.

I would disagree that the Church's teaching on purgatory is not theological.
It's based on scripture, so it's not a supposition. Now, the Church doesn't teach definitively if it is a place or a process, but it is real. I'm on the side of process.
I know this isn't Catholic Bible study, but If no one minds I'll toss in a couple or so scriptural principles regarding purgatory. Of course you're free to disagree, not trying to convert anyone....

2 Samuel 12:13-18
“David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘the Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.’ And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick… On the seventh day the child died.”

Biblical Principle #1 – there is punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness.

Revelation 21:27
“But nothing unclean shall enter it…” Referring to the New Jerusalem – Heaven.

Biblical Principle #2 – nothing unclean, nothing with the stain of sin, will enter Heaven.

Heb 12:22-23
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living god, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect…”

Biblical Principle #3 – there is a way, a process, through which the spirits of the just are “made perfect”.

1 Cor 3:13-15
“…each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day (judgment day) will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation (Jesus Christ) survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Where is this place (or process) that a man, after he dies, suffers loss, as through fire, but is still saved? Hell? No, once you’re in Hell you don’t get out. Heaven? No, you don’t suffer loss in Heaven.

Biblical Principle #4 – there is a place in the afterlife other than Heaven or Hell.

 

[mchammer]

I would disagree that the Church's teaching on purgatory is not theological.
It's based on scripture, so it's not a supposition. Now, the Church doesn't teach definitively if it is a place or a process, but it is real. I'm on the side of process.
I know this isn't Catholic Bible study, but If no one minds I'll toss in a couple or so scriptural principles regarding purgatory. Of course you're free to disagree, not trying to convert anyone....

2 Samuel 12:13-18
“David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘the Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.’ And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick… On the seventh day the child died.”

Biblical Principle #1 – there is punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness.

Revelation 21:27
“But nothing unclean shall enter it…” Referring to the New Jerusalem – Heaven.

Biblical Principle #2 – nothing unclean, nothing with the stain of sin, will enter Heaven.

Heb 12:22-23
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living god, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect…”

Biblical Principle #3 – there is a way, a process, through which the spirits of the just are “made perfect”.

1 Cor 3:13-15
“…each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day (judgment day) will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation (Jesus Christ) survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Where is this place that a man, after he dies, suffers loss, as through fire, but is still saved? Hell? No, once you’re in Hell you don’t get out. Heaven? No, you don’t suffer loss in Heaven.

Biblical Principle #4 – there is a place in the afterlife other than Heaven or Hell.

I meant to say it is not official church doctrine (vs teaching), meaning no one is obligated to believe it to be catholic.

 

[LonghornCatholic]

I think those re-writing the OT wanted a nice fear driven motivator to assure that people gave money to the church to keep the coffers full.

I know that was a general statement and not directed at any specific person or group, but I get a kick out of it when it's made against the Catholic Church. Cause you know, the Pope livin it up in his 1 bedroom apartment and his Ferrari lol

 

[LonghornCatholic]

I meant to say it is not official church doctrine (vs teaching), meaning no one is obligated to believe it to be catholic.

Okay, gotcha. Sorry

 

[Mr. Deez]

His name is Bacon? Maybe it’s turkey bacon.

The most useless food product in existence.

 

[bystander]

I would disagree that the Church's teaching on purgatory is not theological.
It's based on scripture, so it's not a supposition. Now, the Church doesn't teach definitively if it is a place or a process, but it is real. I'm on the side of process.
I know this isn't Catholic Bible study, but If no one minds I'll toss in a couple or so scriptural principles regarding purgatory. Of course you're free to disagree, not trying to convert anyone....

2 Samuel 12:13-18
“David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘the Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.’ And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick… On the seventh day the child died.”

Biblical Principle #1 – there is punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness.

Revelation 21:27
“But nothing unclean shall enter it…” Referring to the New Jerusalem – Heaven.

Biblical Principle #2 – nothing unclean, nothing with the stain of sin, will enter Heaven.

Heb 12:22-23
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living god, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect…”

Biblical Principle #3 – there is a way, a process, through which the spirits of the just are “made perfect”.

1 Cor 3:13-15
“…each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day (judgment day) will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation (Jesus Christ) survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Where is this place (or process) that a man, after he dies, suffers loss, as through fire, but is still saved? Hell? No, once you’re in Hell you don’t get out. Heaven? No, you don’t suffer loss in Heaven.

Biblical Principle #4 – there is a place in the afterlife other than Heaven or Hell.

Looks like David's purgatory was served here on Earth. The thing is, he knew his sin and the punishment. Most of us don't know if bad news is the same as what David experienced.

 

[LonghornCatholic]

Looks like David's purgatory was served here on Earth. The thing is, he knew his sin and the punishment. Most of us don't know if bad news is the same as what David experienced.

That’s actually a great point, By. This verse was more to lay out the biblical principle of punishment even after forgiveness, not necessarily the process of purgatory.

 

[OUBubba]

The most useless food product in existence.

 

[OUBubba]

I don't think @OUBubba is talking about when the OT was written, but rather when it was rewritten in the form of the King James version that distorted the translation in numerous ways.

Yes. In my mind's eye I saw the Church of England when I formed that sentence.

Interesting reading/writing here. I've always believed that the hell that scares us all is Dante's version. As a kid with some Baptist upbringing I cringed every time my old man would say "I'd give my front seat in hell for __________". After reading, classes, thought, etc. I re-formed my theories.

 

[bystander]

I read a book called The Christian Agnostic. In it, the author preached that an all or nothing literal belief can separate us from God. He approached problematic passages with two boxes of storage so that he could continue on in his scholarship and faith:

1) "It may be so, I do not know"
2) "Awaiting further light"

 

[OUBubba]

I read a book called The Christian Agnostic. In it, the author preached that an all or nothing literal belief can separate us from God. He approached problematic passages with two boxes of storage so that he could continue on in his scholarship and faith:

1) "It may be so, I do not know"
2) "Awaiting further light"

That looks intriguing. I took much solace from Mark, "I believe. Help my unbelief."

I am jealous of those who look in the mirror with absolute faith.

 

[bystander]

That looks intriguing. I took much solace from Mark, "I believe. Help my unbelief."

I am jealous of those who look in the mirror with absolute faith.

I suppose I wish I had some level of certainty. My ex-wife is as certain as they come and she has lost custody of our children to me because she is a nut. Her entire being is about Jesus and yet she is a mental abuser of the highest order. That's only one person but I am leery of certainty.

The Apostles displayed much fear and doubt at times. Peter denied him three times. Judas betrayed him. They all witnessed his miracles. How can we be so certain 2,000 years later?

 

[Mr. Deez]

Yeah, I think @huisache has this right. This is not about garnering Jewish support. It is about supporting far-right Christian values.

I'm a Christian of the Right. I'm generally pro-Israel. I personally like Jews. In fact, I've never met a Jew I didn't like. (Same with Mormons.) However, there is a segment of the Christian Right that sorta has a weird fetish for Jews and Judaism. It's not a sexual fetish, but it's a strange political fetish with a religious undertone. It's the John Hagee phenomenon. They incorporate a Jewish angle on things whenever they can. Even with my generally positive views of Israel and Jews, I think it's weird.

 

[bystander]

I'm a Christian of the Right. I'm generally pro-Israel. I personally like Jews. In fact, I've never met a Jew I didn't like. (Same with Mormons.) However, there is a segment of the Christian Right that sorta has a weird fetish for Jews and Judaism. It's not a sexual fetish, but it's a strange political fetish with a religious undertone. It's the John Hagee phenomenon. They incorporate a Jewish angle on things whenever they can. Even with my generally positive views of Israel and Jews, I think it's weird.

I've heard the support you speak of can be attributed to their fervid believe in prophecy, and Israel's existence is key to Gabriel blowing his horn.

I don't have a fetish for anyone. I married into a family and now have a Jewish brother in law. He's a great person. Very calm and accomplished. The voice of reason. Able to control his emotions and always on point with what matters.

They say Jews are like everybody else, only more so. In the end, they live, they love, they suffer... but they also have a connection with the history of their people. Maybe folks are jealous of that. But to have a connection like that is to live the negatives and they endure to this day.

 

[OUBubba]

I'm a Christian of the Right. I'm generally pro-Israel. I personally like Jews. In fact, I've never met a Jew I didn't like. (Same with Mormons.) However, there is a segment of the Christian Right that sorta has a weird fetish for Jews and Judaism. It's not a sexual fetish, but it's a strange political fetish with a religious undertone. It's the John Hagee phenomenon. They incorporate a Jewish angle on things whenever they can. Even with my generally positive views of Israel and Jews, I think it's weird.

Many Okies are HUGE fans of the chosen people. But, not, you know, actual Jews in the US because I have no idea. Some of them even minimize the impact of the holocaust. They can't generally separate followers of Judaism from the state of Israel.

 

[Seattle Husker]

You can't get a full appreciation for the obscene wealth of the Roman Catholic Church until you visit the Vatican Museums. Miles and miles of antiquities taken from cultures around the world. If the church were a corporation, it would be one of the Worlds wealthiest, despite the Pope's humble 1 bedroom apartment.

 

[LonghornCatholic]

Agree, the Church has a vast amount of beautiful breathtaking art. Thank God!

 

[Chop]

A relief sculpture based on the Torah: Moses with the 10 Commandments.
Photo from the United States Supreme Court Building.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Agree, the Church has a vast amount of beautiful breathtaking art. Thank God!

I have no problem with the Catholic church having a lot of art, but I'm not sure how having it promotes anything biblical. It's not like money, which can be used to build churches and help the poor. It's just sitting there looking fancy.

 

[bystander]

I have no problem with the Catholic church having a lot of art, but I'm not sure how having it promotes anything biblical. It's not like money, which can be used to build churches and help the poor. It's just sitting there looking fancy.

I seem to recall a poor carpenter without any possessions being a tad unimpressed by the leaders of the church in his day...

 

[LonghornCatholic]

I seem to recall a poor carpenter without any possessions being a tad unimpressed by the leaders of the church in his day...

Agree… that’s why He founded his own.

 

[LonghornCatholic]

I have no problem with the Catholic church having a lot of art, but I'm not sure how having it promotes anything biblical. It's not like money, which can be used to build churches and help the poor. It's just sitting there looking fancy.

Interesting, Deez.

I think objections about the Church’s alleged wealth is in regard to the art in the Vatican. Most of the art represents the work of Christians who wanted to place their talents at the service of God through the Church. The artwork is an example of their religiosity (if thats word) and is not for sale. Had the Catholic Church not preserved the art, much of it would have been destroyed through the ages. The art is part of our heritage as Christians and few people, Catholic or Non, who appreciate such breathtaking work would prefer that these majestic treasures be entrusted to secular folk, or salesman.

Matthew 26:6-11
A woman came up to Him with an alabaster jar of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on His head as He sat at table. But when the disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, “Why this waste? For the ointment might have been sold for a large sum and given to the poor.” But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a beautiful thing to Me. For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have Me.”

 

[bystander]

Just in case you wonder if I really think about this stuff, here's a poem I wrote about me interviewing Jesus:


Jesus, why do I carry a hammer and a nail?
It is easier to judge than to forgive

Jesus, why do I need you to speak for me?
My father wants you to live

Jesus, why can I not turn the other cheek?
You only know how to cause pain

Jesus, how should I live my life?
Providing shelter to the poor is your aim

Jesus, should I become a rich man?
Whose life do you wish to mimic?

Jesus, am I bound by the old law?
The laws are the notes; listen to the music

Jesus, why did you have to die on the cross?
To demonstrate the cruelty in the world

Jesus, why didn't you save yourself?
So my father's glory would be unfurled

Jesus, why were you not covered in gold?
Earthly riches separate mankind from one another

Jesus, why did you accept a sinner?
Have you ever met anything other?

Jesus, why did you stop the stoning?
To bring your sin into view

Jesus, why did you tell her to sin no more?
She is no different than you

Jesus, should we punish others for their sins?
Why does this concern you so?

Jesus, there are so many bad people
Your own heart is all you really know

Jesus, shouldn't we fight evil?
Who made them that way?

Jesus, God has blessed our country!
All are blessed who pray

Jesus, we have to kill the enemy
Blessed are the peacemakers

Jesus, they want to kill us!
Are you one of the money changers?

Jesus, why did your father ask Abraham to kill Isaac?
To test his belief

Jesus, why did your father spare Isaac?
In grace Abraham found relief

Jesus, how can a country be moral?
It all starts with you

Jesus, I'm just one person
There are others waiting too

Jesus, I'm a good person
Why do you scorn the poor?

Jesus, I work hard for my money
But what's important, you ignore

Jesus, what's important?
Loving thy neighbor

Jesus, I do love my neighbor!
And yet there are so many you abhor

Jesus, I could never be like you
All I ask is that you try

Jesus, I can't earn my way to heaven
You must ask or you will die

Jesus, why must I ask?
Because you have free will

Jesus, give me a sign
I want to see if you are faithful

Jesus, why do I have to be faithful?
Because you will not believe your own eyes

Jesus, I promise this time I will
Mankind only believes the lies

Jesus, why does God love me?
Do you love your own child?

Jesus, why doesn't he just accept me?
He does even if you are reviled

Jesus, why does he want my love?
He is made in your image

Jesus, what does that mean?
Inside your emotions lives the message

Jesus, isn't life just about science?
Can you measure love?

Jesus, I only believe what is proven
Noah only needed a dove

Jesus, everyone thinks you are a myth
What does your heart say?

Jesus, I am ashamed to bear your name
Then why do you not turn away?

Jesus, if I believe will there still be pain?
You were born in pain along with grace

Jesus, did I lose God's grace?
Your pure heart God did not erase

Jesus, why do I feel so unworthy?
Because you are finally humbled

Jesus, what is left of me?
Out of stone love was chiseled

Jesus, I want to go to heaven!
All who thirst for God will be welcome

Jesus, take me with you!
You are destined for God's Kingdom

 

[bystander]

Matthew 26:6-11
A woman came up to Him with an alabaster jar of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on His head as He sat at table. But when the disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, “Why this waste? For the ointment might have been sold for a large sum and given to the poor.” But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a beautiful thing to Me. For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have Me.”

This is an unfortunate passage as I believe it cleanses the minds of those in wealth... there is no regret or concern when Jesus himself words it in such a way as to make one assume the poor are poor for reasons that are either their own fault or God's will.

 

[guy4321]

Yes. In my mind's eye I saw the Church of England when I formed that sentence.

Interesting reading/writing here. I've always believed that the hell that scares us all is Dante's version. As a kid with some Baptist upbringing I cringed every time my old man would say "I'd give my front seat in hell for __________". After reading, classes, thought, etc. I re-formed my theories.

Fair enough. My point only has to evolve slightly. Temple leaders already showed how to make money off the Old Testament. No need to modify the language to be scarier to turn a profit.

I'm a Christian of the Right. I'm generally pro-Israel. I personally like Jews. In fact, I've never met a Jew I didn't like. (Same with Mormons.) However, there is a segment of the Christian Right that sorta has a weird fetish for Jews and Judaism. It's not a sexual fetish, but it's a strange political fetish with a religious undertone. It's the John Hagee phenomenon. They incorporate a Jewish angle on things whenever they can. Even with my generally positive views of Israel and Jews, I think it's weird.

Maybe mentioned already. There's a common view in Protestant churches that Jews must return to Israel as a precondition for Christ’s second coming.

 

[Duck Dodgers]

I've never heard that in 20 years of attending a Protestant church. Considering the Jews have always been in the Israel area, and have had their own country for 70 plus years, you'd have to be pretty old to remember a time that they didn't have their own country.

 

[bystander]

I've never heard that in 20 years of attending a Protestant church. Considering the Jews have always been in the Israel area, and have had their own country for 70 plus years, you'd have to be pretty old to remember a time that they didn't have their own country.

I've also never heard any sermons about "managing" prophecy. But I have read some articles over the year about how the American right wing evangelicals are Israel's greatest friend. Like this guy:

Pastor John Hagee | Christians United for Israel

But if you look him up, he has some pretty crazy ideas...

 

[Mr. Deez]

Maybe mentioned already. There's a common view in Protestant churches that Jews must return to Israel as a precondition for Christ’s second coming.

I understand that. I think it's weird.