Cancelling Student Debt

[utahorn]

Sangre, could not agree more. The company that does our plumbing, used to offer 8 to noon appointments to noon to 4. now it's 8 am to 9 pm because they cannot get enough people. While I handle basic electrical and plumbing here, I do sometime need more experienced help.

My wife (smarter than me) has long said that many people would be better off in trade school (cheaper) than college. We need skilled trades.

 

[Horn2RunAgain]

Dude, it's not the same at all. People charge what they can in those businesses like they do in all businesses. It's their job to do that. Colleges aren't "businesses." They are tax-exempt nonprofit or government institutions. Furthermore, there isn't a big taxpayer-funded marketing effort telling people from the time they're 5 years old until they're 18 that they effectively can't live a decent life if they don't buy what those businesses are selling. Spin it how you want, but this really is a unique transaction.

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I never bought into that line, myself. My parents didn't attend college but they ran their own businesses. My dad's first try ran aground in the mid 70s recession, but his 2nd attempt (started 1983) allowed him to retire comfortably at 61. No college degree required

To add. . After I retired my wife and I immediately expanded her chess business from 1 evening to 5 per week. The net revenue of that business far exceeded my wife's paycheck as a math teacher. No degree required.

I earned my degree later than most, it was worth the effort. But I learned more by life experiences in business dealings. I could have made it either way. It's false to believe you can earn a good living only with a degree

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

If you want to be anything but a plumber or electrician you have to have a college degree. More people should go into the trades, but that still isn't the right choice for many. The price of college needs to be fixed so getting a history degree doesn't ruin your life.

There needs to be mandatory basic statistics posted wherever kids today declare for their majors. Post the % of graduates unemployed, % not in their degreed field of work and some type of demand or need stat. I'm guessing about 97% of history majors do something other than talk about history or are unemployed. On the other hand I bet 85%+ programmer majors are in their field making $100k+ per year.

Or maybe pass a law that advisers are required to tell that when underclass students have their course advising meetings. They need to know if they can get a job to pay for their debt before declaring.

 

[Horn2RunAgain]

Collectively, the consumer holds the ultimate power, but consumers buy these things on an individual level, and individually they have no leverage to negotiate prices, especially with the government putting its weight on the scales in the universities' favor. If I had gone to Baylor Law and said, "$15K per year is too high, but I'll happily pay $12K," they would have laughed in my face. The reason why is that they have the leverage. They may need students to survive, but individually, I needed them more than they needed me. So they called the shots on the cost.

I'll repeat again. If people had stayed off the student loan scam for 2 years, prices would have gone down. Supply and demand. Don't buy. It's how you beat scams

 

[Run Pincher]

Plumbing
Electrician
Carpenter
HVAC
Roofer
Auto repair/service
Body Tech (autos again)
Road construction/repair
Heavy equipment operator
Mortuary/Embalmer
Bartender
Driver (big trucks or small commercial vehicles)


That's just a few occupations off the top of my head that wouldn't require a college degree, though some do require at least the equivalent of an Associate's.

It's not just those but in manufacturing I've watched the ability to get technicians to work on and program the production equipment go from difficult to damn near impossible over the last 25 years.

The last plant I was in they had 3 EMT's (Electro Mechanical Technicians) and had openings for 12. And they couldn't keep 3 because in a couple of months someone would come along and offer them more $. Since they were working 80-90 hrs/wk they were making $150k+ annually in some cases. Although I'm not sure working that many hours is worth it. And all that's needed is about 6 mos of technical training, with some additional classes for some robotics and advanced PLC's.

And I know it's that way in the oil industry too because my nephew is a recruiter for an oil company and he can't get near enough technicians to service oil and gas equipment.

I watched 1-3 production lines not run every day because they couldn't get enough people. Not just EMT's, but people without even a HS diploma to stand and punch buttons on a machine and make $35/hr. It certainly doesn't surprise me when I go to the store and see no product on the shelf because I saw production schedules where less than half of the scheduled production got produced.

That's also why I get turned off when I hear no opportunity when I see so many people from other countries come to the US and go to school during the day, work 2nd shift punching buttons on a machine, and better themselves and their families. But a certain class is unwilling to do it.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I never bought into that line, myself. My parents didn't attend college but they ran their own businesses. My dad's first try ran aground in the mid 70s recession, but his 2nd attempt (started 1983) allowed him to retire comfortably at 61. No college degree required

To add. . After I retired my wife and I immediately expanded her chess business from 1 evening to 5 per week. The net revenue of that business far exceeded my wife's paycheck as a math teacher. No degree required.

I earned my degree later than most, and it was worth the effort. But I learned more by life experiences in business dealings. I could have made it either way. It's false to believe you can earn a good living only with a degree

I don't buy that line either - at least not anymore. I've known many who didn't go to college (or went but didn't finish) who went on to have productive careers - usually as small business owners or doing some kind of skilled blue collar work or tech-oriented work. Before he passed away, my older brother made about $120K per year doing computer networking setup and maintenance. Had he not been sick his last 15 years, he probably would have made much more.

But I learned this by experience. Nobody told me this as a kid. Every teacher, counselor, and my parents all told me that college was the key to success and that not going meant probable failure and financial ruin. (My parents at least told me to major in something useful. The others listed here didn't distinguish. To them, black lesbian poetry and electrical engineering were equally useful majors.) Politicians in the '90s pushed this too. Everybody was supposed to go to college. That's why high schools foolishly cut back on vocational education. We were all supposed to become stockbrokers, doctors, lawyers, engineers, and accountants.

I'll repeat again. If people had stayed off the student loan scam for 2 years, prices would have gone down. Supply and demand. Don't buy. It's how you beat scams

Well, no ****. lol I'm sure that if every diabetic in the United States stopped buying insulin for 2 years, the price would go down for that too. But demand for some things is pretty inelastic. Furthermore, it's pretty hard for a bunch of kids to pull of a national 2-year boycott of something, especially most of their parents and all of their teachers telling them they're crazy.

 

[Horn6721]

MrD .
This is most important useful info anyone could Ever.
Big picture thinking parents
" My parents at least told me to major in something useful."

 

[Horn2RunAgain]

Well, no ****. lol I'm sure that if every diabetic in the United States stopped buying insulin for 2 years, the price would go down for that too. But demand for some things is pretty inelastic.

Congratulations. That's the biggest reach since Joe Biden said inflation was at zero percent a year ago. >> I'm posting about things you have full control over.

Personally I had to put off college after my freshmen year because of family finances, my dad's 1rst business was going down in 75. I could have held him to his promise to fund my education for 4 years and watch him go into debt and all the horrors that go with that, or... find a way to fund it myself. Obviously I chose door #2. Would be almost 10 yrs until I graduated

There are choices in life, man. It's not always about the figurative YOU and the immediate moment. Everything worked out because I , like many others, made it so. There are millions of my generation with the same scenario I'd bet

 

[guy4321]

If you want to be anything but a plumber or electrician you have to have a college degree. More people should go into the trades, but that still isn't the right choice for many. The price of college needs to be fixed so getting a history degree doesn't ruin your life.

Is that all degrees should be affordable or degree costs should match the market value (something like if a history degree costs $20k, a computer science degree should cost $60k)?

 

[Monahorns]

Plumbing
Electrician
Carpenter
HVAC
Roofer
Auto repair/service
Body Tech (autos again)
Road construction/repair
Heavy equipment operator
Mortuary/Embalmer
Bartender
Driver (big trucks or small commercial vehicles)


That's just a few occupations off the top of my head that wouldn't require a college degree, though some do require at least the equivalent of an Associate's.

Name a list of jobs I want to know part of for $1000 Alex.

Still going to need a long list of jobs which do require a college degree to have a functioning, technological civilization.

 

[Monahorns]

There needs to be mandatory basic statistics posted wherever kids today declare for their majors. Post the % of graduates unemployed, % not in their degreed field of work and some type of demand or need stat. I'm guessing about 97% of history majors do something other than talk about history or are unemployed. On the other hand I bet 85%+ programmer majors are in their field making $100k+ per year.

Or maybe pass a law that advisers are required to tell that when underclass students have their course advising meetings. They need to know if they can get a job to pay for their debt before declaring.

I don't know about passing laws. But I agree in principle. That kind of thinking is important. More people are doing it now.

 

[mchammer]

Every teacher, counselor, and my parents all told me that college was the key to success and that not going meant probable failure and financial ruin. (My parents at least told me to major in something useful. The others listed here didn't distinguish. To them, black lesbian poetry and electrical engineering were equally useful majors.) Politicians in the '90s pushed this too.

In the mid-80’s, I too was told that college is the key to success but no one ever said that spending too much money on a worthless degree was sound. This changed after Clinton I believe expanded federal and private college loans. This is housing crisis all over again (houses never lose money).

 

[Monahorns]

In the mid-80’s, I too was told that college is the key to success but no one ever said that spending too much money on a worthless degree was sound. This changed after Clinton I believe expanded federal and private college loans. This is housing crisis all over again (houses never lose money).

In the mid 80s college was a great deal. The cost for a public school was very reasonable for even working class people. Since the late 90s when I graduated, the price for college has grown 10xs. 10. It was about 10,000-15,000 for me. Now it is over 125,000. That is the problem which Biden and the government created.

That doesn't mean people should go into college unaware. It doesn't mean people should be foolish and stupid. But we all need to realize that the floor has dropped out from underneath college students in 2023.

 

[mb227]

It is quite possible ro get a degree for five figures. Few employers care about pedigree. Some don't even care what someone's major was.

But if the fluff degree person shows up in blue and green hair, they aren't getting hired.

 

[Mr. Deez]

MrD .
This is most important useful info anyone could Ever.
Big picture thinking parents
" My parents at least told me to major in something useful."

Yep. I remember telling my dad that I wanted to major in political science. He said, "that sounds interesting, but how many good jobs come out of that degree?" I didn't know. I ended up going with accounting, because if I only got a bachelors, it would still lead to a decent career.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Congratulations. That's the biggest reach since Joe Biden said inflation was at zero percent a year ago. >> I'm posting about things you have full control over.

But do you really have control? Can one kid really get every kid in the United States to forego college to bring down the price? Come on. That's the point I was making.

Personally I had to put off college after my freshmen year because of family finances, my dad's 1rst business was going down in 75. I could have held him to his promise to fund my education for 4 years and watch him go into debt and all the horrors that go with that, or... find a way to fund it myself. Obviously I chose door #2. Would be almost 10 yrs until I graduated

There are choices in life, man. It's not always about the figurative YOU and the immediate moment. Everything worked out because I , like many others, made it so. There are millions of my generation with the same scenario I'd bet

I get that. Life is full of choices. However, the government shouldn't be intentionally making the choices crap. That's the problem.

 

[Mr. Deez]

In the mid-80’s, I too was told that college is the key to success but no one ever said that spending too much money on a worthless degree was sound. This changed after Clinton I believe expanded federal and private college loans. This is housing crisis all over again (houses never lose money).

It isn't that they told us to spend on worthless degrees. It's that they were indifferent and didn't provide useful information. They should have been giving students extensive information on what kind of income they should expect to make in various fields and compare it with the costs. They should also tell kids how much schooling they would need to make a degree worthwhile. If you go all the way and get your Ph.D. in black lesbian poetry, you probably can make a decent living as a college professor. But if you choose a solid tech field, you can do OK with an associates and do pretty well with a bachelors. Students should know this stuff, but instead of giving us that kind information, we got a bunch of "follow your dreams" *********.

 

[Horn2RunAgain]

But do you really have control? Can one kid really get every kid in the United States to forego college to bring down the price? Come on. That's the point I was making.

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you have no control over others. Just yourself. I don't tell my kids to jump off a cliff because others do it. I teach what's right from wrong, smart from not.

Bud Light is hurting now because of a very dumb decision by their leadership. There's absolutely no reason why the student loan industry shouldn't have suffered the same fate. There are options. Eat the rat poison or not. In 2 short years the pricing would have dropped off the table if people had made the wise decision

 

[mchammer]

It isn't that they told us to spend on worthless degrees. It's that they were indifferent and didn't provide useful information. They should have been giving students extensive information on what kind of income they should expect to make in various fields and compare it with the costs. They should also tell kids how much schooling they would need to make a degree worthwhile. If you go all the way and get your Ph.D. in black lesbian poetry, you probably can make a decent living as a college professor. But if you choose a solid tech field, you can do OK with an associates and do pretty well with a bachelors. Students should know this stuff, but instead of giving us that kind information, we got a bunch of "follow your dreams" *********.

You missed my point. When colleges saw that more students would be getting financial aid (when Clinton got elected), they responded by turning into diploma mills. They added nonsense majors and expanded their low-end departments. Government assumed the additional students would get similar results as the prior students. The fact is that the additional students were obviously not as good as the ones who had been going to college in prior years. It was a concerted effort between colleges and government to turn out poorly educated folks.

 

[Mr. Deez]

you have no control over others. Just yourself. I don't tell my kids to jump off a cliff because others do it. I teach what's right from wrong, smart from not.

Yes, I know. That's why this point about just not going to school for 2 years and ending the scam (which you brought up) was silly.

Bud Light is hurting now because of a very dumb decision by their leadership. There's absolutely no reason why the student loan industry shouldn't have suffered the same fate. There are options. Eat the rat poison or not. In 2 short years the pricing would have dropped off the table if people had made the wise decision

And you're making the same point again that you just discredited yourself. One guy refusing for 2 years would make no difference, and you only control your own behavior.

The big difference between Bud Light and college is the burden on the chooser. If you don't buy Bud Light, you walk 2 feet and buy Coors Light, or Miller Light. There's really no downside other than that you're getting crappy redneck beer, but you're getting that with Bud Light too.

If you forego college, you're completely changing the direction of your life professionally and usually financially. It means not becoming an accountant, not becoming a lawyer, not becoming a doctor, not becoming a stockbroker, not becoming an engineer, not becoming a teacher. That's a hell of a lot more consequential than putting down the case of rhinoceros piss and choosing the case of donkey piss.

 

[CallawayHorn]

There needs to be mandatory basic statistics posted wherever kids today declare for their majors. Post the % of graduates unemployed, % not in their degreed field of work and some type of demand or need stat. I'm guessing about 97% of history majors do something other than talk about history or are unemployed. On the other hand I bet 85%+ programmer majors are in their field making $100k+ per year.

Or maybe pass a law that advisers are required to tell that when underclass students have their course advising meetings. They need to know if they can get a job to pay for their debt before declaring.

Double major here, History and English, and I work in P&C insurance. . I can confirm that I do not talk history every day!

 

[Mr. Deez]

Double major here, History and English, and I work in P&C insurance. . I can confirm that I do not talk history every day!

Well, you probably do talk about history. It's just not the kind of history you learn in college, like those historic car thefts or historic house fires. lol

 

[Horn2RunAgain]

If you forego college, you're completely changing the direction of your life professionally and usually financially. It means not becoming an accountant, not becoming a lawyer, not becoming a doctor, not becoming a stockbroker, not becoming an engineer, not becoming a teacher. That's a hell of a lot more consequential than putting down the case of rhinoceros piss and choosing the case of donkey piss.

You're making **** up as you go. I never said "forego" college. I said abstain for 2 years en masse.

But there's another option You're totally ignoring. I made it clear I put off my education for a few years to save $, while beginning a career. I'm no fkn magical dude, deez. Others can do it too.. it's not magic, it's common sense

 

[Mr. Deez]

You're making **** up as you go. I never said "forego" college. I said abstain for 2 years en masse.

Ok, so you're back on this even though you discredited it. If you're an 18 year old with no money, how do you get this to happen en masse?

But there's another option You're totally ignoring. I made it clear I put off my education for a few years to save $, while beginning a career. I'm no fkn magical dude, deez. Others can do it too.. it's not magic, it's common sense

That depends on what's happening with the cost. If I had done this, my JD would have cost about $180K instead of $45K, while my income would have been less. Hard to make the case that would have been a good move - unless I had somehow convinced every young person in the United States not to go to law school for two years. Still waiting for you to explain how to pull that off.

 

[Horn2RunAgain]

Ok, so you're back on this even though you discredited it. If you're an 18 year old with no money, how do you get this to happen en masse?



That depends on what's happening with the cost. If I had done this, my JD would have cost about $180K instead of $45K, while my income would have been less. Hard to make the case that would have been a good move - unless I had somehow convinced every young person in the United States not to go to law school for two years. Still waiting for you to explain how to pull that off.

What's hard to make a case is, you're not a lawyer. You're a stay at home dad, right? Lot of money (not yours afterall) needlessly spent

 

[Horn2RunAgain]

Ok, so you're back on this even though you discredited it. If you're an 18 year old with no money, how do you get this to happen en masse?

Make it happen yourself, then
You can enlist in the military
You can take on multiple jobs like many I know.

The above has been done hundreds of 1000s, maybe millions of times. Don't act like it's impossible

 

[guy4321]

What's hard to make a case is, you're not a lawyer. You're a stay at home dad, right? Lot of money (not yours afterall) needlessly spent

That is a bad example. He didn't know he would be a stay at home day during law school, he was previously paid to be a lawyer, he could return to the US and practice again, and there is value in raising one's own child(ren) instead of after-school daycare each Monday to Friday.

I wouldn't make the same argument against my neighbor. She is licensed veterinarian, but she currently is a stay at home mom. There was no guarantee she'd get married and have kids as a vet student, and she previously worked at a vet place. Hell, she might go back to it one her children are older. That's not a waste of money on education. She's actively chosen to raise them all day each day (minus school hours).

 

[Horn2RunAgain]

That is a bad example. He didn't know he would be a stay at home day during law school, he was previously paid to be a lawyer, he could return to the US and practice again, and there is value in raising one's own child(ren) instead of after-school daycare each Monday to Friday.
).

There's also value in being a male role model and earning a living, no? There's value in applying that degree.

I hope deez is gainfully employed upon return, in most fields if you sit out for extended periods of time it's hard to regain a good position. I wish him the best

 

[guy4321]

There's also value in being a male role model and earning a living, no? There's value in applying that degree.

I hope deez is gainfully employed upon return, in most fields if you sit out for extended periods of time it's hard to regain a good position. I wish him the best

Deez appears to be a positive role model to Deez Jr. I trust Mrs. Deez is applying her degree for work, but you are right it can certainly be tough to come back.

 

[Mr. Deez]

What's hard to make a case is, you're not a lawyer. You're a stay at home dad, right? Lot of money (not yours afterall) needlessly spent

What does that have to do with making the cost of college go down? And though it's not relevant to this discussion, I don't practice because I don't want my kid to be indoctrinated into being a Christ-hating socialist.

Make it happen yourself, then
You can enlist in the military
You can take on multiple jobs like many I know.

The above has been done hundreds of 1000s, maybe millions of times. Don't act like it's impossible

And this makes the cost of tuition go down how?

And I never said it was impossible for an individual to go to college. It obviously is, but the ability of someone to overcome a scam doesn't make the scam acceptable. If someone steals my car, I can buy another one and be OK. That doesn't make the theft no big deal or something that should be shrugged off.