Baltimore teacher speaks the truth

Those conversations and the general loving environment that you provide is usually the difference between a well adjusted child ready to face the world and a child that is so incapable of functioning in a school environment that they not only don't learn, the prevent others from doing so. We can argue all day about the best way to fix schools, but the answer will always start with the things the schools have the least control of - a parents relationship with their child.
 
We need to rethink what school is. People want schools to feed kids, teach them right from wrong, teach them about sex, teach them how to behave, etc. That's ridiculous. Teachers need to be able to explain to students what is expected of them and then teach them the curriculum. Going beyond that requires teachers to deal with issues of morality and religion, which invites them into cultural and political battles, and that isn't their place or their job. They do not and cannot know a kid well enough to "fix" him, and the problems that are screwing him up are outside the teacher's control. Yes, there are kids that teachers "reach" and help fix, but that's the exception, not the rule. If the kid is receptive to being fixed, most of the problem is already solved. He's not really the problem kid.

In short, teachers are there to impart knowledge in ways that children understand, not to make screwed up citizens into good citizens. That's a job for parents, social workers, priests, rabbis, etc., not teachers, who shouldn't be expected to do that. When a kid is screwed up, teachers should not have to answer for him. The kid's parents should.
 
MrD
Hear Hear. I know all of us agree. How many biological parents in inner city Baltimore etc would understand what you pointed out?
And do you have any expectation parents are all of a sudden going to start parenting after decades of progressive big government creep into what used to be family and years of liberals blaming everyone but the parents?
 
mwa
yes a huge money grab that also destroyed several generations of self worth which will likely prove to be more costly to our nation than the trillions spent.
There is no easy way out. There probably is a way out but it would require effort on the part of all those now living on taxpayer money. Note, we must have safety nets and we must help those who can not help themselves. The others need to be cut off.
 
I know Deez is a big supporter of vouchers, and it will work for some. Kids who will not behave in a regular school environment are not going to all of a sudden change their ways because they have been moved into a charter, private, parochial school environment. Students who will change will see success in their academics, but what will we do with those who will not change? There will be students who are not causing problems and are looking for a way to improve and they will also be affected positively, but what do we do with those who will not? Deez is so correct in his statements about schools/teachers being expected to teach morals, values, manners etc., and it is not their job. Those things should be taught at home, but when the home is just plain ignorant someone has to fill that gap. It becomes an ideological game at that point and we have seen problems, on both sides, when those views clash with mainstream media types with their own agendas. It is going to take a huge effort to stem the tide, and I am not sure I will see it in my lifetime.
 
Mr. Deez said:
We need to rethink what school is.
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This is huge. I know homeschooling is not a practical option for many, but a lot of folks are pulling their kids out and going their own way. And it’s not necessarily due to “bad” schools or problematic students, but just the sheer drudgery of force-feeding a dated curriculum that many kids will never need, or have no interest in. The whole model no longer serves us well, but I expect that society will need some kind of institutionalized effort (like public schools) for quite a while to come.

Peter Gray is doing some very interesting work with learning as a fundamental aspect of play and natural curiosity.
 
Dobeyville said:
I know Deez is a big supporter of vouchers, and it will work for some. Kids who will not behave in a regular school environment are not going to all of a sudden change their ways because they have been moved into a charter, private, parochial school environment. Students who will change will see success in their academics, but what will we do with those who will not change? There will be students who are not causing problems and are looking for a way to improve and they will also be affected positively, but what do we do with those who will not? Deez is so correct in his statements about schools/teachers being expected to teach morals, values, manners etc., and it is not their job. Those things should be taught at home, but when the home is just plain ignorant someone has to fill that gap. It becomes an ideological game at that point and we have seen problems, on both sides, when those views clash with mainstream media types with their own agendas. It is going to take a huge effort to stem the tide, and I am not sure I will see it in my lifetime.
Click to expand...

Dobe,

The purpose of the vouchers is to give an opportunity for the good kids to get out of their bad schools and into better ones. It's not going to save the bad apples. However, it has a better chance than a public school does, because it isn't constrained by the law from teaching morals, discipline, etc. Either way, some are going to fall through the cracks, and we need to just accept that. Eventually, people have to be responsible for their own lives.
 
The immigrant situation over the past decade, at least certainly and further back, has severely impacted the public schools in the DFW area. The percentages of ESL is astonishing. The ratings compared to statewide averages are almost straight indirect proportional of %ESL and test performance.

But can you blame the schools totally for that? When I was growing up we got some Vietnam boat people brought into our school but it was only a very few to indoctrinate into the system. Today it is an overwhelming number with many not wanting to even learn the common language.(so the schools are changing the common language !?!)

If you happen to buy a house watch where you buy it if you don't want to have your kid getting stuck in one of the schools that are dealing with mass amounts of kids who are starting from zero. Who gets the limited amount of teacher's eye/attention in that situation? BTW, don't trust the realtor to have the correct school district named for the prospective property either. (check/google for the address in the school district of choice)
 
The schools are not changing the common language. We are teaching them in their native language as is required by law until they have the English proficiency to switch to English. It's about 90% Spanish/Vietnamese/whatever in kinder but only about 10% in 5th. None beyond that.
 
LarryT
I did not know that. I thought state law mandated ESL all through high school and the last stats I saw showed the LEP % had increased.
Did state law change?
 
ESL is a program where a non-native English speaker is in an English classroom with a teacher certified to teach children (in English) that are just learning English. About half of my class this year qualifies as ESL. Bilingual programs are when the child learns part of the day in a different language. This is designed so that they do not fall behind on academic concepts while transitioning to English.
 
Thanks for the clarification
So there is no provision for LEP ( limited English proficient) students in high school ? They get no help?
At what grade does teaching a student in their native language end?
 
Their teacher will likely have an additional certification and they may have one class that is designed to improve their English proficiency but they are largely on their own. Kids that move here in middle or high school not knowing English dropout at an extreme rate for this reason.

Most bilingual programs end in 5th grade but at that point their day is 90% English. The main support that they have is a teacher that speaks their native language if they have a question.

It's also important to not that there has to be a certain number of students that speak a particular language for the district to be required to offer a bilingual program. My district only offers Spanish and Vietnamese even though we have probably 100 different languages spoken. The rest go into ESL (regular classroom with minor supports). It's also worth noting that many parents deny the bilingual program even when they qualify because they think immersion will help their kid learn the language faster. They typically learn interpersonal skills in English faster but lag way behind in academics because they miss so much foundational content in their first few years.

The whole ESL issue creates massive problems for schools in testing. We have our ratings trashed because a family of Iranians/Peruvians/Chinese show up and their kids bomb a test they can't even read.
 
I understand your frustration but that sounds like you don't welcome Iranians Peruvians or Chinese who are only coming here for a better life.
 
Nope, just being realistic about the challenges created for the schools. They are usually good students and families so my problem isn't with them. My problem is the one criteria rating system we have for schools where it makes having students like this become a negative instead of a positive. Most teachers love working with these kids but are frustrated that they will be having tough conversations about why a lower % of their students passed.
 
I would imagine teachers in Baltimore etc are equally frustrated at being penalized when black kids act like that Baltimore teacher reported ( and teachers here is Dallas have echoed) and then fail.
which group of kids would you say is likely to succeed as productive citizens?
 
Was blessed this week to attend my daughter's high school awards ceremony. This public high school produces 15 plus national merit scholars each year and is the equivalent size of a 3A high school in Texas.

The principal discussed success in the school as a direct result of parent and community involvement. For graduating seniors, he asked that parents continue to visit the school, come to games and support the school as long as they were in the community. Money is not the answer - parenting is.
 
ii's
Absolutely no doubt parental involvement is the #1 factor.
But in many areas we are on our 3rd, even 4th generation of people who came from or are in single parent/ grandparent homes.
Categorically speaking these single parents did not grow up with parental involvement , many have multiple children from multiple fathers and are just struggling to get through a day. Not to derail but I always wonder what these single mothers think after the first child born out of wedlock let alone 2 or more. They get counselling and free birth control so why do they keep having kids?
For now though how can this culture be changed? How do we get enough of these single mothers to take responsibility and how can we get them to understand education and obeying the law will mean a better life for their children>
We saw from that single mother of 6 who cared enough to get out on the street and drag her 14 y o home that some if not many single mothers do care.
 
Larry, do you work at Summitt Elementary in Austin? That is where my kids go and they have Spanish and Vietnamese ESL. So if not, it sounds like a similar place. The one thing that might be different is that in Austin, the ISD decided to funnel the Vietnamese kids to one elementary in order to justify having ESL for them and also cultural classes. It is a really nice aspect of the school I think.

I think one of the things in play in the whole school performance issue is that one of the activities of the liberal/progressive is to replace family guidance with government guidance. That is why you see such an eroding of family due to liberal/progressive policy and at the same time teaching values, morals, secular "religion" in schools. If it isn't conscious it is very curious what has occurred unintentionally.
 
I can post more later but I do not work in AISD. Like AISD, our Vietnamese students can choose to go to one school for the bilingual program. We don't have enough students to offer it at every school. Most choose to stay at their home campus and receive ESL services in the regular classroom.
 
Dionysus said:
I know homeschooling is not a practical option for many, but a lot of folks are pulling their kids out and going their own way. And it’s not necessarily due to “bad” schools or problematic students, but just the sheer drudgery of force-feeding a dated curriculum that many kids will never need, or have no interest in. The whole model no longer serves us well, but I expect that society will need some kind of institutionalized effort (like public schools) for quite a while to come.
Click to expand...

I think this is spot on. I know it's revolutionary talk, but the government was never meant to be the educator of kids, and it tends to do a poor job of it for a lot of reasons. Parents long ago farmed their teaching responsibilities off on others, and at some point that needs to change, at least to some degree. We live in an age where learning by going to a classroom and sitting for eight hours a day just doesn't make a lot of sense, so it shouldn't be surprising that it seems to be getting less and less effective even under good circumstances.

I think the government should look into getting into the home-schooling space, providing grants to make sure a home has adequate online capabilities and a good curriculum, along with some way of keeping the kids on track and accountable. Can't be any more expensive than what we're doing now.
 
Mr. Deez said:
Dobe,

The purpose of the vouchers is to give an opportunity for the good kids to get out of their bad schools and into better ones. It's not going to save the bad apples. However, it has a better chance than a public school does, because it isn't constrained by the law from teaching morals, discipline, etc. Either way, some are going to fall through the cracks, and we need to just accept that. Eventually, people have to be responsible for their own lives.
Click to expand...

I feel like we do a lot of character education in the way of morals and discipline in public schools. The problem is we lack the way to back it up when the lessons are not followed by students. The most effective way to improve public schools overnight is to let them play by rules that the private/charter schools play by. We tell parents that their kid isn't following the behavior code, they get pissed and take the kid to charter school. Guess who shows back up after getting kicked out a few weeks later.....
 
theiioftx said:
Was blessed this week to attend my daughter's high school awards ceremony. This public high school produces 15 plus national merit scholars each year and is the equivalent size of a 3A high school in Texas.

The principal discussed success in the school as a direct result of parent and community involvement. For graduating seniors, he asked that parents continue to visit the school, come to games and support the school as long as they were in the community. Money is not the answer - parenting is.
Click to expand...

Schools are a reflection of the community that they serve with very few exceptions. It sounds like this is a nice community with a lot of parent involvement and support. I always learned as a child that a church is the people, not the building. I think of schools the same way.
 
Monahorns said:
Larry, do you work at Summitt Elementary in Austin? That is where my kids go and they have Spanish and Vietnamese ESL. So if not, it sounds like a similar place. The one thing that might be different is that in Austin, the ISD decided to funnel the Vietnamese kids to one elementary in order to justify having ESL for them and also cultural classes. It is a really nice aspect of the school I think.

I think one of the things in play in the whole school performance issue is that one of the activities of the liberal/progressive is to replace family guidance with government guidance. That is why you see such an eroding of family due to liberal/progressive policy and at the same time teaching values, morals, secular "religion" in schools. If it isn't conscious it is very curious what has occurred unintentionally.
Click to expand...

There seems to be some disagreement on whether public schools teach morals/values because I just read that we don't in another post. First let me clarify what is taught in every school I have ever been in. Universal values such as honesty, hard work, respect for adults, etc. are taught. I think you are a little off when you are say that schools are replacing family guidance with government guidance. In many cases the family guidance is already gone and we either fill the void or we don't. As mentioned in a previous post, we don't have the ability to get rid of the ones missing family guidance and they are still held to the same academic standard as other students. We either fill in the gaps, both behavioral and academic, or watch our school get torn apart.
 
ProdigalHorn said:
I think this is spot on. I know it's revolutionary talk, but the government was never meant to be the educator of kids, and it tends to do a poor job of it for a lot of reasons. Parents long ago farmed their teaching responsibilities off on others, and at some point that needs to change, at least to some degree. We live in an age where learning by going to a classroom and sitting for eight hours a day just doesn't make a lot of sense, so it shouldn't be surprising that it seems to be getting less and less effective even under good circumstances.

I think the government should look into getting into the home-schooling space, providing grants to make sure a home has adequate online capabilities and a good curriculum, along with some way of keeping the kids on track and accountable. Can't be any more expensive than what we're doing now.
Click to expand...

When public schools have a solid partnership with parents, they tend to do a good job for a lot of reasons. There are hundreds of great public schools in the Austin area. When they don't have that partnership, the results are expensive and terrible. IMO, the focus should be on finding a way to make parents be more responsible and not treat public schools like a day care.
 
ProdigalHorn said:
We live in an age where learning by going to a classroom and sitting for eight hours a day just doesn't make a lot of sense
Click to expand...
Kids today are mostly very resourceful. With the world's information at their fingertips they learn quickly how to find what they are interested in—just like we adults do—and learn what they want to know.

I’ve been pretty amazed watching my own kids and their friends as they jump on YouTube or Wikipedia or other sites to find out about something they like or want to learn about. This may not necessarily do away with some kind of instruction or guidance that could be helpful, but sitting at a desk with 20+ other kids your age is a mode of learning that has fallen far behind for many of our young students.

Another thing that I hear sometimes is that kids are lazy or they don’t want to learn. Research like that of Peter Gray (linked to above) shows that children across all cultures are naturally curious, and always have been. What they don’t want, or really benefit from, is the tired old practices and curricula that are still being served up in the public school system.
 
Dionysus said:
Kids today are mostly very resourceful. With the world's information at their fingertips they learn quickly how to find what they are interested in—just like we adults do—and learn what they want to know.

I’ve been pretty amazed watching my own kids and their friends as they jump on YouTube or Wikipedia or other sites to find out about something they like or want to learn about. This may not necessarily do away with some kind of instruction or guidance that could be helpful, but sitting at a desk with 20+ other kids your age is a mode of learning that has fallen far behind for many of our young students.

Another thing that I hear sometimes is that kids are lazy or they don’t want to learn. Research like that of Peter Gray (linked to above) shows that children across all cultures are naturally curious, and always have been. What they don’t want, or really benefit from, is the tired old practices and curricula that are still being served up in the public school system.
Click to expand...

I enjoy working with the youngest kids in our school system because even the ones with a terrible home life still have that natural curiosity that makes the day fun. In many ways, it makes my job easy. It gets hard when you have to start asking them to do things they don't want to do or are not developmentally able to do. This happens in kindergarten a lot because many of the kids are just not ready to read. But, the state says they need to be reading so we beat them over the head with it until everybody is miserable. As long as the state is dictating to people that actually know children and what is going on with them developmentally, this problem will persist. It didn't used to be like this and it hasn't made our children any smarter. A quick example is that our math scores have been pretty poor for a while. For this school year, they took a bunch of 7th grade TEKS and moved them to 5th grade and moved everything down a grade level or two. The 5th graders are now doing math that was 8th grade when I was in school and Im 32. This is what is making school miserable for the kids and teachers.
 
Chickens beget eggs. Eggs beget chickens. Chickens beget eggs. Eggs beget chickens.

Bad parents beget bad students. Bad students become bad parents. Bad parents beget bad students. Bad students become bad parents.

I know that the analysis is oversimplified, but there is a lot of truth to it. I guess what I'm saying is that lack of parental involvement is a huge problem, but the problem doesn't start there. The problem is a vicious cycle that needs to be broken.

How? Good freakin' question.
 
I think one great advantage charter, private and religious schools have is they can tell incorrigible kids to get lost. That's a hammer on bad behavior public schools don't have. Kids with bad attitudes can be turned around, but patience isn't always a virtue. It seems amazing, but sometimes kids find out they can't give you any crap, they don't.
 
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