AP Poll Says 'Deport 'em'

Paso,

For the 1,000th time, we get your argument of the refugee status of these children. You're intellectually incapable of changing gears and engaging in a larger discussion of values/principles of this immigration issue.

More likely you're evading and deflecting because you have also brought in tangential arguments, e.g. Border Patrol detainee stats that have nothing to do with the "refugee" crisis, but which you cite to refute and marginalize said crisis as posed in the AP poll, but then go Lloyd and Harry when we switch back to border issues - narrowly insisting refugee entitlement is the only immigration subject worthy of discussion.

And then you're defaulting to calling people racist while hiding behind the immigration laws are too complex and "a waste of time to explain to a lay person." But the entitlement of refugees to asylum...no that's unimpeachable.
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Lawyers...gotta love them. How much do you bill clients for your erudite counsel? Forgive me for not being an enlightened member of your highly esteemed profession. Law school wasn't in the cards as those military deployments filled up my calendar.
 
dillohorn absolutely nailed it. And I am not a racist for not wanting illegal aliens to be "given" citizenship. Green cards and visas maybe, although there are many people in the US now who have followed the rules and are working toward their own American dream. A friend of mine had to jump through all sorts of hoops to get a visa for her mother, who she had not seen in 8 years. The mother was finally granted one, and now can come and go whenever she wants.

We either have laws or we don't. If you don't like it, work to change the laws. I would not be surprised if, during the Congressional recess, BO grants them all citizenship. Free votes!!!
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I just spent some time researching the history and circumstances of gangs in El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala.

I'm too dog tired to post any of it here. Will show refences, a quick google search will bring them up.

It's an intriguing story almost like reading ancient and medieval history only it's present day. .

So Google these... I haven't time to pull in the links. As far as costs of a border fence... some data in that NY Times short piece.

On the first PDF report listed here, the author worked in that region for three decades. In 2012 spent a lot of time interviewing gang leaders in prison and on the streets. Well-documented professional journalism in the writing. Not too terribly long.

Ana Arana's essay in Council on Foreign Relations from May/June 2005, also very well done.

And the best short piece on history that goes back nearly a century is the Huffington Post piece (last one on the list).
In reply to:
Click to expand...
 
You pretend this is a forum for "debate". It isn't. This forum consists of something like 80% right wing nutjobs. I personally do not think you are in this category, but you do think that continuing to go over and over and over an issue might change things? It won't especially with me.

Hu brings up an excellent point on causation. These kids are the fallout of probably 100 years of US intervention in Central America. We are, in large part, responsible for their failed governments and we are certainly responsible for the collateral impact of the drug trade.

But none of this really matters to me. I come at this from a legal perspective and as someone who was married to a first generation American and with a second generation child. I also have spent about 50 years on the US border with Mexico and know illegal immigration first hand.

Incidentally, I have had family in what is now this country since 1637. My former spouse has had family in this hemisphere for about 20,000 years. Who really has the better claim to citizenship?

The points I am making are these:

1. This is a fake "crisis" created as a wedge issue for the fall mid-terms.

2. Illegal immigration is down significantly from 2000. I furnished you with actual numbers from the Border Patrol. You do not get to challenge these numbers with your "feel". I can tell you as someone who has lived a few miles from the border almost my entire life that I think these numbers are accurate, but I don't care about my "feel" but rather the objective data. The Border Patrol has every financial reason to keep these numbers high so they can get more funding for more agents (who incidentally have doubled since 2000).

3. The border is "secure". This does not mean that it is 100% East German guarded with minefields and machine guns. It means that there is no overwhelming criminal element pouring through.

4. El Paso is the safest large city in the United States and has been for the last three years (and in the top ten for as long as I can remember).

5. Rick Perry lies about border safety (among most other things).

6. These children are legally entitled to be treated as refugees.

7. Some and perhaps many of these children (the numbers I have seen are 40-60%) are entitled to become American citizens under our laws. So we are talking about completely legal immigrants who are entitled to eventually become US citizens just like Ted Cruz's dad or you or me.

8. They must by law have a hearing in front of an immigration judge. I am extremely dubious that a snap hearing would be fair or just given the important issues involved.

9. There have been 3 million people granted asylum over the past 40 years. This averages 75,000 per year for the last 40 years including a very large "surge" from Vietnam.

10. There were also 125,000 Cuban boat people granted asylum.

11. I do not remember any protests over any of these events.

12. Why is this different?

13. Xenophobia is a periodic feature of fringe parties in American politics. Xenophobia is racism.

14. There is zero rational opposition to these children. None. The most irritating one to me is the conflation of illegal immigrants with these children. These children fall into a very different category and are "legal". They get to stay here while their immigration status is determined. You want to propose changing the law? I don't care. This still does not change how the children that are here already must be treated. I also want to see addressing the problem by increasing funding for immigration judges like Obama proposed rather than demagoguery over "shipping them all back".

15. The numbers are meaningless in the big picture. Let's say 50% qualify to stay. This is about 35,000 children about 80% of whom can stay with a relative. This leaves 7,000 children. The US has 314 million people. El Paso alone has 2,500 of these children right now and I do not even notice it (it may be smaller because some or most may have been released to a family member's care). I don't even know where they are (and don't care).

16. I am done with this issue. There is nothing more to discuss. I tire very easily on this forum.
 
Paso can spin it, but doesn't know or care the definition of ILLEGAL. Who's the real nutjob?
 
You are a moron if you think these children are illegal. These children are not illegal. Many and maybe most of them are completely legal immigrants entitled to become US citizens. The remainder are entitled to a hearing and to stay here util they are returned.
 
Paso isn't a nutjob. But he certainly seems to be a card carrying, La Raza supporting, Reconquista. His kind, like the President, want to change the United States and settling thousands of illegals throughout the country is part of the agenda.
 
I suppose we can count pasotex as against the Cornyn-Cuellar bipartisan bill that would change the 2008 law in question.

The State of Texas is taking it up the rear in all this, and a Texas Republican and Democrat have come together to help our state. But pasotex opposes Cornyn-Cuellar? Hmm? Wonder why.
 
paso posted a long list of facts, none of which have been refuted. I agree with his analysis of this so-called "crisis."
When the situation in a country is so bad that parents feel they have no choice but to send their children on a harrowing exodus to another land, knowing they could be kidnapped, exploited or killed along the way, there is a real refugee situation arising.
There is a law in the U.S. protecting these children, and it is not going to be changed by the right wingers who want to politicize this issue.
Solutions to this problem are complex, and won't be happening any time soon.
 
I need to see some more details on it, but the bill does not appear completely off base to me provided Congress also approves funding for the process and provides at least an advocate for the child to assist in the screening process. I do not have a problem with an initial evaluation to quickly remove children that will not qualify for asylum.
 
In reply to
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I love how these kids are now "refugees", not illegals.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Your position has historical precedent. The 1939 voyage of the St. Louis, loaded with Jews fleeing Nazi Germany and wanting to come to the United States is perhaps a less than stirring example of our exercising our nationhood. The Link The happy ending is of the 908 passengers turned away, only 254 died in the Holocaust and only 274 had to survive it in a country under Nazi occupation.

Maybe there will be even better luck for the refugees (or illegals if that's what you want to call them despite Paso's vigorous education efforts) and only a fraction will be murdered in their home countries.
 
You are correct, he said "57" states. Now, run back upstairs and tell your mom you got one over on the West Mall!
 
I stand by what I said, and by what paso said, as well.
There may be a crisis in Honduras, but I don't see a crisis here. There's a processing problem that needs attention, but it isn't exactly an attack on Pearl Harbor or anything.
Just because Rick Perry wants to publicize his political aspirations does not equate a national crisis. It's his PR department, not mine. Except for the millions of dollars per week he is spending by sending in the Texas National Guard, which will have to be paid by me and the other taxpayers of Texas, that's a crisis. So yeah, I guess there is a crisis.
 
Here's the most concise rundown on how the gangs evolved in El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala... known as the Northern Triangle.

The short of it... US foreign policy had a (questionable) hand (open to assessment and opinion when studying US involvement over decades, especially in the cold war years) in events leading to Central America civil wars in the 80s that drove refugees to US, including to the LA area where refugee kids grew up having to defend themselves against LA gangs, thereby developing their own gangs, and then took that with them to Cent America when they were deported. That's the skinny of it, but the meat of it is how the US and Calif State justice systems contributed to accomplishing that by their changing laws.

The below quote box is from: “How the Street Gangs Took Central America,” Ana Arana, Essay for Council on Foreign Relations, May/June 2005. Link. As a visitor, you can view one report per month; with free registration you can get three.

I put a key point in Italics/Bold. When these gang/criminals were deported, immigration law prevented authorities from telling their destination country about their background. Leading up to that were justice decisions as to the degree of offense that would land someone in jail. Keep in mind that prisons are considered "finishing school" in gang development

If I were writing a conspiracy sci-fi film, I would construct a theory that the US government purposely let the gangs evolve, got them in prison (gang finishing school) let them become hardened, including in touch with top leaders (nearly always in prison) ... then deport them to Cent America, let them evolve further and create a "return-the-favor" rush of immigration back to the US. According to NY Times report (The Link), most of those coming are men between 15 and 17. I don't see how you get to be 15 years old and survive not being in a gang. So how about grooming a disguised sleeper-cell gang population that goes back to the US taking advantage of yet another US justice dept decision... and there you go. Fiction?

Reports explain the immediate future is to export and create gang membership all over the world. The strategy for that is in this piece, page 20: “Central American Gangs and Transnational Criminal Organizations: The Changing Relationships in a Time of Turmoil,” International Assessment and Strategy Center, Feb. 2013. The Link . Further, language skills today among top gang members has become very sophisticated. From what I've read they appear far from dummies at the highest levels. In general, gang structures today in this Northern Triangle area exercise more authority and control than the governments. That is covered in the report just mentioned.

Okay then... In reply to:
 
I think this is certainly a potential crisis for Texas public schools, and local government in general. Maybe more like throwing gasoline on the fire. These kids must be educated, by law, even if they're cooped up in Karnes City.

Districts have already been inundated with illegals who can't read in English or Spanish. Many districts must hire teachers who can speak Spanish, and several are recruiting foreign teachers from Spanish-speaking countries. $$$

Garland ISD recently got caught with their HR director engaging in what's tantamount to human trafficking. Irving ISD has pretty much given up on teaching their Hispanic students in English, as the district continues to push back the grade-level deadline on when Spanish-speaking students switch to all-English instruction.

Those costs don't even touch on county hospital and county law enforcement expenses.

Democrats were hollering not long ago that state funding cuts to school districts created financial crises. Wouldn't one think that adding thousands (if not tens of thousands) of new costs just since the end of the last school year is throwing gasoline on the fire?
 
Oh |m
You just hate little brown children and are a xenophobe or something for bring up reality.
Pelosi would surely tell you are insignificant.

haven't you learned yet the narrative is these are children fleeing from drugs gangs shootings and murder/

No I am mot talking about Chicago( there have been about 1300 shootings jan -july this year)
No one has explained why the children being shot and killed in Chicago are less worthy of using taxpayer and borrowed money to save these black and latino children.
And we shouldn't forget Detroit Philly. New Orleans Miami etc.
Anyone think these beleaguered children there wouldn't like toturn themselves in and get sent , with their mamas , to Karnes City where the kids could play soccer without worrying about being shot or coerced into a gang and their mama's could get there hare done or enjoy a spa?

OR why don't we bring all the Palestian kids here and the Israeli kids too. How about the Somalians? Nigerians Sudanese? etc etc etc.
Who is NOT worthy of us helping? Can we help them all? If not who should have priority?

m
You ask good common sense questions but those questions don't fit the left's agenda
 
"And one might also add another question - does Mexico even bother with enforcing their southern border? Why weren't these children turned back as they tried to enter Mexico from the south?"

This is one of the million dollar questions. How the F are these kids getting through Mexico, period? Whose paying their bus fair and feeding them? How is Mexico allowing them to cross their entire 2000 mile country to get to the US? Whats going on here?

And then I read articles today about how its not just central Americans and Mexicans, but its Syrians, Egyptians, Pakistanis, Saudis, and Yemenis among others that are getting in this country through Mexico. Seriously. How many lives have to be lost fighting overseas to supposedly protect our country when our southern border is a sieve.
 
Deport them to Mexico. They are refugees and Mexico is the first country they found refuge. From their refugee status in Mexico they may go through the process of applying for citizenship in either Mexico or any other country. Hard to believe it is okay to skip an available country(Mexico) when seeking refuge.
 
The Left would have you believe these are children fleeing persecution in Central America, but the average age is close to 17 and they are from all over the world, including China, Pakistan, Somalia, Egypt, West Africa, etc .

The Link
 
Pasotex,

Seriously..."There is zero objective reason to want to "send these children back"....ZERO???

How about
1. There is not structure to handle these kids
2. They will be a burden on several institutions not the least of which is a school system that already sucks hind tit with english speaking students. My mother teaches ESL students and they are almost always substantially behind and there is very little our system can do to catch them up.
3. Allowing this current wave to stay reinforces the idea that all you have to do is get across the border and you'll eventually get citizenship.

Just like your own household, there is only so much to go around. So much housing, so much employment, etc... If we have unchecked/uncontrolled immigration it will overly tax institutions, it will undercut the labor force and wages, and it will cause increases in prices for just about everything else.

There is only so much the system can handle in the short run. Illegal immigration puts too much into the system too fast. The legal channels certainly need revamping and loosening but the illegal stuff has to be stopped.
 
This is not illegal.

They are entitled to a hearing and a determination as to whether they are entitled to asylum. Many of them will be entitled to asylum.

There is zero huge burden on this country. We take thousands of refugees every single year.

When every objective reason is ******** what is left?
 
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