2020 Presidential Election: let the jockeying commence

RainH2burntO said:
I'm curious at what point in time in the future an election fraud claim isn't "disputed".
Yeah....we all know the answer to that...
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I am a believer in federalism, however, our national elections must be cleaned up.
Outside of an invasion, nothing can undermine democracy quicker than the loss of faith in the fairness of elections. It's the bedrock principle of the whole show.
 
Well if there is no accountability for the shenanigans in this cycle, 2022 should be a free for all for both parties. Hell, maybe the Libertarians have a chance now.
 
WillUSAF said:
I guess I will answer. Not a liberal but not a fan of Trump either.
I would not rate any of them. If there is fraud show proof. You can't just say that there is fraud like Trump has and it is true. During the legal process if there is any fraud it should be prosecuted and fixed. Let the legal process work its way. I know that Trumpers will not accept it. They will say it is still unfair due to liberal judges or some other argument. Again, let the legal process work and we will see if there was any fraud. Proof is in the pudding.
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There are only legal cases, in most instances, because there is sufficient evidence to support the actions.
People who can't see this don't want to and no amount of information provided apparently makes any difference to them whatsoever.
If it is legal prosecution and judgements rendered you desire...I believe you will certainly see enough to disturb any objective and reasonable American. I'm with you...let's wait and see. BUT...the dangerous voices are those attempting to quickly, flippantly and without good reason dismiss claims of fraud without a desire to discover. They are obviouly and inherently suspect due to their own stated position and inability to logically and reasonably defend it. I am no Mitch McConnell fan at all ..but he very succinctly and reasonably stated clearly on the Senate floor Tuesday what all fair-minded Americans should support. We want all legal votes counted, illegal votes not counted, and whoever wins wins and that's that.
How this is handled will potentially and likely affect all...regardless of party...in the future.
 
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Joe Fan said:
Abortion was a part of that
The economy generally too
I dont really know which of those two is more important to the RGV Latino crowd (it might even largely break down by gender)
And the third issue has to be immigration/border
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I can tell you what is happening, Joe...from what I am hearing...
Both Blacks and Hispanics are starting to view the Democratic party as the immoral party...and they do not like it
 
Joe Fan said:
I am a believer in federalism, however, our national elections must be cleaned up.
Outside of an invasion, nothing can undermine democracy quicker than the loss of faith in the fairness of elections. It's the bedrock principle of the whole show.
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I guess some people dream of living in Venezuela
 
Joe Fan said:
I am a believer in federalism, however, our national elections must be cleaned up.
Outside of an invasion, nothing can undermine democracy quicker than the loss of faith in the fairness of elections. It's the bedrock principle of the whole show.
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And yet, apparently, certain portions of our leadership (and general population) think their politics is more important.
 
RainH2burntO said:
There are only legal cases, in most instances, because there is sufficient evidence to support the actions.
People who can't see this don't want to and no amount of information provided apparently makes any difference to them whatsoever.
If it is legal prosecution and judgements rendered you desire...I believe you will certainly see enough to disturb any objective and reasonable American. I'm with you...let's wait and see. BUT...the dangerous voices are those attempting to quickly, flippantly and without good reason dismiss claims of fraud without a desire to discover. They are obviouly and inherently suspect due to their own stated position and inability to logically and reasonably defend it. I am no Mitch McConnell fan at all ..but he very succinctly and reasonably stated clearly on the Senate floor Tuesday what all fair-minded Americans should support. We want all legal votes counted, illegal votes not counted, and whoever wins wins and that's that.
How this is handled will potentially and likely affect all...regardless of party...in the future.
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While I agree with you that its dangerous for people to dismiss claims of fraud, it is just as dangerous saying that the election is nothing but fraud. There is NO proof of fraud and there is NO proof there wasn't at this point. Believe in the judicial system and both sides need to stop making accusations.
 
WillUSAF said:
While I agree with you that its dangerous for people to dismiss claims of fraud, it is just as dangerous saying that the election is nothing but fraud. There is NO proof of fraud and there is NO proof there wasn't at this point. Believe in the judicial system and both sides need to stop making accusations.
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But there can be no judicial action if one side doesn't claim fraud, right?
 
If Pfizer delivers on the vaccine and Biden sends it overseas first that would seriously damage his credibility. I cant imagine the fools that voted for him would be cheering a move like that.
 
horninchicago said:
But there can be no judicial action if one side doesn't claim fraud, right?
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And they have. That is my point. If they have proof it will proven. If there is isn't then that will proven. We all need to take a deep breath and see what comes of the legal battles. There is a legal process for all of this.
Just because Trump lost does not mean there is fraud throughout the election. Just because Biden won does not mean the accusations should not be looked into. Everything is just polarized all the time. IDK why it is so hard to look at both sides objectively for people.
 
2003TexasGrad said:
If Pfizer delivers on the vaccine and Biden sends it overseas first that would seriously damage his credibility. I cant imagine the fools that voted for him would be cheering a move like that.
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Pfizer's vaccine was developed by their German subsidiary. They've allowed multiple government entities to prepay for doses. What are the chances their contract has language around delivery order to each purchaser?

With the other vaccines the US government is a co-developer which should give us more control.
 
Yeah, Will.. I'm sorry but I don't see this.
You see evidence to suggest something. You seek further proof or for a reasonable, alternate explanation. You find none. You then take legal action to further explore and receive remedy if proven in court. We are at the point where there is evidence of likely wrongdoing and moving through the next steps. If you see it differently I'm fine w with that and respect your views. You seem like a genuine dude. But many are not and nothing will appease them... literally no amount of evidence would be enough to justify suspicion even much less legal action. That position is absurd to me. People say they want to get rid of someone they hate, they try everything for 4 years, they say they won't let him win the election, they basically tell you what they are going to do, then you see signs and evidence that they are indeed doing it.....there is every good reason at that point to take the position taken by the President and his supporters.
We can all argue about what constitutes evidence all day long. In my view, there is plenty in some of these states and, again, that is why legal action is proceeding.
 
WillUSAF said:
And they have. That is my point. If they have proof it will proven. If there is isn't then that will proven. We all need to take a deep breath and see what comes of the legal battles. There is a legal process for all of this.
Just because Trump lost does not mean there is fraud throughout the election. Just because Biden won does not mean the accusations should not be looked into. Everything is just polarized all the time. IDK why it is so hard to look at both sides objectively for people.
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I'll respond to just one thing here, Will.
One reason it is polarized ..from my personal viewpoint and "the Right's" perspective...is I believe the left in this country cannot be trusted. I've stated my reasons for this view many times here and won't repeat it. This view in America that we're all good we're all the same its just a matter of perspective is simply not true. And, to be fair, it doesn't just break on political lines. There are bad, vile people. There are entities and people with selfish and bad intentions. Regardless of what Neitschke said, there is good and there is evil. And there is a difference. If people don't see this soon, then we will be the proverbial frogs in the pot and go the way of many others before us.
There are those who willingly and wantonly will do harm for their own selfish design and purpose. We all better possess the discernment to know the difference between these^^^^^^ when we see it
 
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RainH2burntO said:
Yeah, Will.. I'm sorry but I don't see this.
You see evidence to suggest something. You seek further proof or for a reasonable, alternate explanation. You find none. You then take legal action to further explore and receive remedy if proven in court. We are at the point where there is evidence of likely wrongdoing and moving through the next steps. If you see it differently I'm fine w with that and respect your views. You seem like a genuine dude. But many are not and nothing will appease them... literally no amount of evidence would be enough to justify suspicion even much less legal action. That position is absurd to me. People say they want to get rid of someone they hate, they try everything for 4 years, they say they won't let him win the election, they basically tell you what they are going to do, then you see signs and evidence that they are indeed doing it.....there is every good reason at that point to take the position taken by the President and his supporters.
We can all argue about what constitutes evidence all day long. In my view, there is plenty in some of these states and, again, that is why legal action is proceeding.
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Well I am NOT a fan of Trump. While I voted for him I do not like him at all. But if anything comes of this and there is fraud he should continue to be our President and some serious prosecution should be handed down.
 
WillUSAF said:
Well I am NOT a fan of Trump. While I voted for him I do not like him at all. But if anything comes of this and there is fraud he should continue to be our President and some serious prosecution should be handed down.
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I am honestly more concerned for the future of our Republic than I am for Trump holding office; though, if he fairly won, I do desire that.
 
Seattle Husker said:
Pfizer's vaccine was developed by their German subsidiary. They've allowed multiple government entities to prepay for doses. What are the chances their contract has language around delivery order to each purchaser?

With the other vaccines the US government is a co-developer which should give us more control.
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Id like to see the documentation of that. Pfizer is part of Warp Speed. We're they not guaranteed billions by the US government to incentivize development of a vaccine specifically so it would be used in the US first?
 
RainH2burntO said:
And yet, apparently, certain portions of our leadership (and general population) think their politics is more important.
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Cleary, they are willing to sell their souls for immediacy

Some philosophers think that 200 years from now, people will look back at legal abortion the same way we look back at slavery now -- "What were they thinking?"
 
EmolH_nXIAECZlR
 
RainH2burntO said:
I'll respond to just one thing here, Will.
One reason it is polarized ..from my personal viewpoint and "the Right's" perspective...is I believe the left in this country cannot be trusted. I've stated my reasons for this view many times here and won't repeat it. This view in America that we're all good we're all the same its just a matter of perspective is simply not true. And, to be fair, it doesn't just break on political lines. There are bad, vile people. There are entities and people with selfish and bad intentions. Regardless of what Neitschke said, there is good and there is evil. And there is a difference. If people don't see this soon, then we will be the proverbial frogs in the pot and go the way of many others before us.
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I agree with you. In my lifetime I have seen a dramatic swing. As a kid I never saw any of this polarization at this level. There are good people (most of us here!) and there are evil. That is everywhere in this world. I have seen good and bad in some of the shittiest places on this Earth. But when it comes to America I agree it is mostly the left. This country is centrist to conservative leaning. IMO liberals have tried to implement policies that they believe in but do not fall in line with majority of Americans. That is when they turn into children. Children that need their asses beaten. I do not agree with the rights assumption that we are headed down a socialist path. Yes there are people in positions that believe in that ideology but Americans as a whole will not allow it. That is just my belief.
 
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