What went wrong - defense
- Thread starter Menjou
- Start date
This is probably way too simplistic and maybe has no bearing on our defensive play; but 30 years ago when I played defense I got pumped up seeing and hearing the dc going apeshit on the sideline (Robinson) as opposed to the dc "playing chess in the pressbox" (Chizic, as noted in a previous post). Anybody know if Mac Duff is a sideline coach? Hasn't Akina always been a sideline coach?
I have no idea, but just because Chizik was in the press box doesn't mean we don't have other coaches doing the pumping up. Akina is always very animated, for instance.
I've heard Mac Duff described as intense, so we'll see what actually happens there. But I agree that it sure looked liek we didn't care what was going on some of the time (Baylor and A&M)
I've heard Mac Duff described as intense, so we'll see what actually happens there. But I agree that it sure looked liek we didn't care what was going on some of the time (Baylor and A&M)
G-M PLATTER
< 25 Posts
Great read, now for the icing on the cake give us a preview of the scheme to look forward to with our new DC.
1leggedduck
1,000+ Posts
Are the issues with Chizik being inflexible and tunnel-visioned something you would expect Mack to have recognized, or do you hire a DC based on his track record alone? How much second guessing should a HC do during the season? I am a Mack fan. I'm not criticizing. I just suspect Mack was relieved that Chizik was a "hot property" and moved on, and I wonder if Chizik was told that he best take the ISU job, and what would have happened if he hadn't?
Laphroaig10
1,000+ Posts
I think Chizik saw a great opportunity in the ISU job. They were making a commitment to winning, and would give him the resources to lure top assistants. He was able to reunite with Bolt and bring in some highly thought of young kids he'd worked with before. He'll be in a weak division, so he can make a splash early and quickly be in the running for a big time job.
Menjou - appreciate your observations, which are interesting in part because of your moral certitude.
It always is interesting to call another man a "fraud" (especially behind his back) -- and particularly if he not only is successful at the national level (Gene Chizik won the Broyles Award as the outstanding assistant coach in major-college football "before" he arrived at Texas), but also is called out after he is gone from the premises.
Whatever, the evil that men do lives after them, and the good is oft interred in their bones ... so let it be with Chizik.
Here, in memoriam, is some of the information that we're burying in order to support the argument that Chizik is a "fraud" (while, according to your thesis, Greg Robinson knew what he was doing as the Horns' Defensive Coordinator):
(1) Under Greg Robinson, the Horns did not win a Conference or National title ... while we did win both with Gene Chizik on board, and were well on our way (with a less experienced team) to a second Conference title before our starting QB was injured near the end of the season.
(2) Under Greg Robinson, the Horns lost to Oklahoma ... while we were 2-0 vs. Oklahoma with Gene Chizik on board.
(3) Under Greg Robinson, the 2004 Sooners romped to 301 rushing yards (and 5.8 yards a carry as a team) vs. the Horns' defense ... while the 2005 & 2006 Sooners averaged 100 rushing yards (and 2.9 yards a carry as a team) vs. the Horns' defense.
(4) Adrian Peterson had a field day vs. Robinson's 2004 Longhorn defense -- with 225 yards rushing on 32 carries (7.0 yards per carry -- with no appreciable halftime adjustment by our defense) ... while Peterson gained 119 yards rushing on 28 carries (4.25 yards per carry) in the 2005 and 2006 games vs. Chizik's Longhorn defenses.
(5) In terms of half-time adjustments, the 2006 Horns' defense held Adrian Peterson to 38 yards rushing on 13 carries (2.9 yards per carry) with the game on the line in the second half of the 2006 RRS.
(6) In the Ohio State rematch, you inadvertently left out the fact that Tarell Brown was unexpectedly removed from the Horns' defensive secondary the week of the game. [Note: Tarell Brown was a returning senior CB who had played ahead of Aaron Ross for three consecutive Defensive Coordinators at Texas ... and Tarell generally was ranked as one of the top-five CBs in the Country going into the 2006 football season.]
(7) You decry the lack of team football-speed among our linebackers ... and then mention that a factor of relative insignificance (as compared, in your view, to our defensive schemes) was the number of injuries suffered by the Horns' fastest linebackers this past season (e.g., Drew Kelson, Roddrick Muckelroy and Sergio Kindle) ... as if that's Chizik's fault.
(8) You also seem inclined to slow-play the impact of injuries to key DL players this past season, such as DE Brian Robison and DTs Frank Okam and Derek Lokey ... as well as the nagging injuries for DBs Tarell Brown, Marcus Griffin and Michael Griffin ... in other words, at least eight (and arguably nine, if you count Kindle) of the Horns' starters on defense were either playing injured -- or were literally out of the game -- much of this past season.
(9) Assuming you are correct that Gene Chizik was a "fraud" in his two seasons as the Defensive Coordinator at Texas -- when the Horns' average final national ranking in Total Defense was No. 16, and our average final national ranking in Scoring Defense was No. 17 -- where does that leave:
(a) Bob Stoops - OU's average final national rankings for the same two seasons were No. 15 in Total Defense and No. 28 in Scoring Defense,
(b) Pete Carroll - USC's average final national rankings for the same two seasons were No. 34 in Total Defense and No. 23 in Scoring Defense, and
(c) Greg Robinson - the 2004 Horns' final national rankings in those two categories were No. 23 in Total Defense and No. 18 in Scoring Defense.
Are Stoops, Carroll and Robinson also "frauds" as defensive coaches (the area in which both Stoops and Carroll supposedly specialize)?
(10) It is interesting that the 2004 Horns yielded 320 yards a game in Total Defense, while the 2005 Horns yielded 303 yards a game in Total Defense ... and the 2006 Horns yielded 297 yards a game in Total Defense. Somehow that seems inconsistent with the deification of Greg Robinson and the vilification of Gene Chizik.
We'll see what happens with the next "fraud".
Hook 'em.
It always is interesting to call another man a "fraud" (especially behind his back) -- and particularly if he not only is successful at the national level (Gene Chizik won the Broyles Award as the outstanding assistant coach in major-college football "before" he arrived at Texas), but also is called out after he is gone from the premises.
Whatever, the evil that men do lives after them, and the good is oft interred in their bones ... so let it be with Chizik.
Here, in memoriam, is some of the information that we're burying in order to support the argument that Chizik is a "fraud" (while, according to your thesis, Greg Robinson knew what he was doing as the Horns' Defensive Coordinator):
(1) Under Greg Robinson, the Horns did not win a Conference or National title ... while we did win both with Gene Chizik on board, and were well on our way (with a less experienced team) to a second Conference title before our starting QB was injured near the end of the season.
(2) Under Greg Robinson, the Horns lost to Oklahoma ... while we were 2-0 vs. Oklahoma with Gene Chizik on board.
(3) Under Greg Robinson, the 2004 Sooners romped to 301 rushing yards (and 5.8 yards a carry as a team) vs. the Horns' defense ... while the 2005 & 2006 Sooners averaged 100 rushing yards (and 2.9 yards a carry as a team) vs. the Horns' defense.
(4) Adrian Peterson had a field day vs. Robinson's 2004 Longhorn defense -- with 225 yards rushing on 32 carries (7.0 yards per carry -- with no appreciable halftime adjustment by our defense) ... while Peterson gained 119 yards rushing on 28 carries (4.25 yards per carry) in the 2005 and 2006 games vs. Chizik's Longhorn defenses.
(5) In terms of half-time adjustments, the 2006 Horns' defense held Adrian Peterson to 38 yards rushing on 13 carries (2.9 yards per carry) with the game on the line in the second half of the 2006 RRS.
(6) In the Ohio State rematch, you inadvertently left out the fact that Tarell Brown was unexpectedly removed from the Horns' defensive secondary the week of the game. [Note: Tarell Brown was a returning senior CB who had played ahead of Aaron Ross for three consecutive Defensive Coordinators at Texas ... and Tarell generally was ranked as one of the top-five CBs in the Country going into the 2006 football season.]
(7) You decry the lack of team football-speed among our linebackers ... and then mention that a factor of relative insignificance (as compared, in your view, to our defensive schemes) was the number of injuries suffered by the Horns' fastest linebackers this past season (e.g., Drew Kelson, Roddrick Muckelroy and Sergio Kindle) ... as if that's Chizik's fault.
(8) You also seem inclined to slow-play the impact of injuries to key DL players this past season, such as DE Brian Robison and DTs Frank Okam and Derek Lokey ... as well as the nagging injuries for DBs Tarell Brown, Marcus Griffin and Michael Griffin ... in other words, at least eight (and arguably nine, if you count Kindle) of the Horns' starters on defense were either playing injured -- or were literally out of the game -- much of this past season.
(9) Assuming you are correct that Gene Chizik was a "fraud" in his two seasons as the Defensive Coordinator at Texas -- when the Horns' average final national ranking in Total Defense was No. 16, and our average final national ranking in Scoring Defense was No. 17 -- where does that leave:
(a) Bob Stoops - OU's average final national rankings for the same two seasons were No. 15 in Total Defense and No. 28 in Scoring Defense,
(b) Pete Carroll - USC's average final national rankings for the same two seasons were No. 34 in Total Defense and No. 23 in Scoring Defense, and
(c) Greg Robinson - the 2004 Horns' final national rankings in those two categories were No. 23 in Total Defense and No. 18 in Scoring Defense.
Are Stoops, Carroll and Robinson also "frauds" as defensive coaches (the area in which both Stoops and Carroll supposedly specialize)?
(10) It is interesting that the 2004 Horns yielded 320 yards a game in Total Defense, while the 2005 Horns yielded 303 yards a game in Total Defense ... and the 2006 Horns yielded 297 yards a game in Total Defense. Somehow that seems inconsistent with the deification of Greg Robinson and the vilification of Gene Chizik.
We'll see what happens with the next "fraud".
Hook 'em.
badmoonrising
< 25 Posts
lets not forget that greg robinson had the great Derrick Fn Johnson!
Also.....lets face it...losing Michael Huff and Cedric Griffen were huge loses...you can't expect the D to be as good when losing those players.
Also.....lets face it...losing Michael Huff and Cedric Griffen were huge loses...you can't expect the D to be as good when losing those players.
Steinbeckford
25+ Posts
I feel for this thread so hard.
ILoveChickFilA
25+ Posts
Whether or not kchorn was wrong or right, it makes for a much more interesting read if there is two opposing view points. High five to kchorn and menjou. Opinions are opinions, although there are such things are right opinions. I will say Chizik is very stubborn and the loss of Lokey AND Huff was bigger than we think it was.
I_Live_In_OK
500+ Posts
LocoGringos
250+ Posts
I have a different thought on the Menjou vs. kchorn sideshow:
Can one of you guys explain how we consistently recruit like nobody's business and neither Greg Robinson or Gene Chizik ever fielded a legitimate top 10 defense? (Or Bull Reese, for that matter, discounting the fact that one season we did manage to climb to the top of the statistics heap under his "tutelage"?)
Can one of you guys explain how we consistently recruit like nobody's business and neither Greg Robinson or Gene Chizik ever fielded a legitimate top 10 defense? (Or Bull Reese, for that matter, discounting the fact that one season we did manage to climb to the top of the statistics heap under his "tutelage"?)
Oh, and a couple days ago I came across a Chizik playbook from 2004, and my theory on what we were running was right. He had the cover 4 in there, so he does have familiarity with it, and I'm guessing we just went from base 2 to base 4.
I was also right about him having our CBs on an island (he even says it, one of the three listed weaknesses of the cover 4 is one on one coverage outside) and still making them read of OL for the run. Again, if you are responsible for any deep part of the field, you just can't afford to waste time being a run stopper. He asked an awful lot of our guys there, and it bit us.
Yeah, this post is a blatant pat on the back, but it's useful.
I was also right about him having our CBs on an island (he even says it, one of the three listed weaknesses of the cover 4 is one on one coverage outside) and still making them read of OL for the run. Again, if you are responsible for any deep part of the field, you just can't afford to waste time being a run stopper. He asked an awful lot of our guys there, and it bit us.
Yeah, this post is a blatant pat on the back, but it's useful.
RansomStoddard
25+ Posts
Every time I read this post, I get depressed. Horrible offensive coaching? Check. Mack making pitiful decisions about who should be starting? Check. Akina teaching players the wrong technique? Check.
longhornmatt
25+ Posts
I think the 2001 defense (which finished number 1 nationally at the end of the regular season) was the only time we were actually quick and athletic across the board on d under Mack.
DE - Redding, Thornton
DT - Tubbs, Maurice Gordon
LB - DJ, DD Lewis, Tyrone Jones/Everick Rawls
DB - Jammer, Babers, Vasher, Ahmad Brooks
Well, you could probably argue that Redding and Thornton weren't speed demons at DE, but they were still good players. Plus Thornton hung in the NFL a little while as a LB, so he wasn't a stiff or anything athletically.
That unit had some other issues such as a starting DT who weighed 245 (Maurice Gordon - he could rush the QB though) and an athletic LB who didn't really make plays (Tyrone Jones). The safeties were also undersized, but they could tackle so that was mostly okay. The other weakness was of course the mugging LB scheme, although at that time it had not yet progressed to the point where everyone except Nebraska was exploiting us.
Anyway, I agree it is weird that we have only put out one defense that even arguably had above average athletes at every position. I don't expect the defense to be perfect, but I would expect the weaknesses to be more a result of skill deficiencies or inexperience rather than athletic ability. At least I would expect this to be the case more often than once out of every nine years considering we have had our pick of the litter in recruiting for so long.
DE - Redding, Thornton
DT - Tubbs, Maurice Gordon
LB - DJ, DD Lewis, Tyrone Jones/Everick Rawls
DB - Jammer, Babers, Vasher, Ahmad Brooks
Well, you could probably argue that Redding and Thornton weren't speed demons at DE, but they were still good players. Plus Thornton hung in the NFL a little while as a LB, so he wasn't a stiff or anything athletically.
That unit had some other issues such as a starting DT who weighed 245 (Maurice Gordon - he could rush the QB though) and an athletic LB who didn't really make plays (Tyrone Jones). The safeties were also undersized, but they could tackle so that was mostly okay. The other weakness was of course the mugging LB scheme, although at that time it had not yet progressed to the point where everyone except Nebraska was exploiting us.
Anyway, I agree it is weird that we have only put out one defense that even arguably had above average athletes at every position. I don't expect the defense to be perfect, but I would expect the weaknesses to be more a result of skill deficiencies or inexperience rather than athletic ability. At least I would expect this to be the case more often than once out of every nine years considering we have had our pick of the litter in recruiting for so long.
RansomStoddard
25+ Posts
Vince Young? Check
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