What really happened with the 2 Riverine boats?

[Horn6721]

maybe someone who is more knowledgeable can explain.
I do not understand why if one boat was disabled both boats got captured? What is the likelihood 2 boats could lose contact with the Navy?
If one was disabled could not the other have towed it
OR taken the 5 on board and get away?
The story of one boat breaking down and both boats unable to communicate with the Navy so both boats get captured seems more than off.
Now an Iranian Admiral is saying missiles are aimed at the USS Truman.

 

[texas_ex2000]

maybe someone who is more knowledgeable can explain.
I do not understand why if one boat was disabled both boats got captured? What is the likelihood 2 boats could lose contact with the Navy?
If one was disabled could not the other have towed it
OR taken the 5 on board and get away?
The story of one boat breaking down and both boats unable to communicate with the Navy so both boats get captured seems more than off.
Now an Iranian Admiral is saying missiles are aimed at the USS Truman.

The whole story is bizarre. I know one former naval officer commentate that those boats 300 miles out is ridicoulous. I wouldn't say that. These sailors are almost certainly part of SBU-22 (the riverine specialists in NSW) and have all different kinds of missions. Maybe these boats are sophisticated SIGINT assets parading around as SBU riverine boats to fool Iranian Intel...who knows.

How they got captured could have happened a lot of ways. If I had to speculate, they were probably being tracked closely by the Iranian Navy and when they broke down and drifted into Iranial waters, the healthy boat stayed to assist but they were outgunned once the Iranians arrived on scene.

They might have had classified material and the crews were going through the destruction process and that's what held them up.

Now, let me be clear, how the Iranians handled this is NOT at all appropriate. Mariners in distress - the Coast Guard is supposed to help them and send them on their way. Guns pointed at them with their hands on their heads is provocative and completely unprofessional. Believe it or not, the US Navy has assisted Iraian civilian and naval vessels having mechanical issues many times. It's routine.

 

[theiioftx]

Thanks for the perspective. I have been torn about this. One, very pissed about it, but in the end very thankful our guys are safe.

 

[Seattle Husker]

I put this in the category of "**** happens". We'll get the sailors back. As long as they have been treated OK no harm no foul. This stuff happens when we sit on the edge of our enemies boundaries. Look no further than the plane that China took 5-10 years back. Hopefully there are no technology secrets lost from the boats. If we ever get them back it will likely be in pieces.

 

[Clean]

Nothing about this story as spun by the Obama Administration, i.e. "Iranians rescued our stranded sailors", makes sense. Their lying their asses off, just like after Benghazi. They'll probably send poor Susan Rice around the Sunday talk show circuit again.

 

[NJlonghorn]

Nothing about this story as spun by the Obama Administration, i.e. "Iranians rescued our stranded sailors", makes sense.

“This administration is putting diplomatic relations above transparency,” one defense official told Fox News. Link

This sounds like a reasonable answer to me. If we have to blow smoke up Iran's ***, fine. It's one tiny step towards a safer world....

 

[Seattle Husker]

“This administration is putting diplomatic relations above transparency,” one defense official told Fox News. Link

This sounds like a reasonable answer to me. If we have to blow smoke up Iran's ***, fine. It's one tiny step towards a safer world....

Foxnews would take the opposite stance if an R was in the Whitehouse just as Rachel Maddow would do the same in the inverse situation. It's all so predictable. Wash, rinse and repeat.

 

[Seattle Husker]

I put this in the category of "**** happens". We'll get the sailors back. As long as they have been treated OK no harm no foul. This stuff happens when we sit on the edge of our enemies boundaries. Look no further than the plane that China took 5-10 years back. Hopefully there are no technology secrets lost from the boats. If we ever get them back it will likely be in pieces.

I didn't realized the soldiers and boats had been released so quickly. Anyone that would spin the quick retrieval of our crew and equipment as a bad thing is beyond partisan.

 

[texas_ex2000]

If these guys were on a SIGINT mission, then...the Iranians may have some ground for their actions. That's extremely doubtful and they would have certainly claimed as such by now.

There's no way in f'in hell that I make that statement that one sailor made.

 

[Horn6721]

No one that I have read is saying getting the Sailors back is a bad thing. That is a pretty sick strawman.

 

[Seattle Husker]

No one that I have read is saying getting the Sailors back is a bad thing. That is a pretty sick strawman.

Are you saying Clean's inference of a conspiracy theory in the capture and rapid retrieval of our sailors is a positive portrayal?

 

[Horn6721]

Husker
Typically you are now asking a different question. let me remind you of your post;
" Anyone that would spin the quick retrieval of our crew and equipment as a bad thing is beyond partisan."

Where is Clean's post do YOU read that Clean is saying the quick retrieval is a bad thing?

 

[chango]

There's no way in f'in hell that I make that statement that one sailor made.

Imagine a world where all US servicemen are as tough as texas_ex2000. It's easy if you try.

Thanks for bring so tough, fella.

 

[Horn6721]

Which account of how 2 riverines ended up near that Iranian island put out by the US gov't do most of you believe?
1. The boats were looking to refuel? Where ?
2.. one boat had engine problems
3. both boats had communication problems
4. The navy lost contact with BOTH boats
5 The Navy alerted Iranian officials there were 2 boats that were unintentionally close to Iran waters but the Navy was coming in for a search and rescue so the Iranians decide to capture the boats and force the crews to knees with guns trained on them. Did Iran tell the Navy to NOT come after the 2 boats who accidentally strayed too close?
It is amazing and great it all worked out but the story the gov't is putting out is pretty fishy.
and now the news is that 4 Iranian Americans helped by iran have been released.
so far there is no mention of a swap by the US. surely we gave them prisoners.
Iran is turning into a really friendly nation, what?

 

[texas_ex2000]

Imagine a world where all US servicemen are as tough as texas_ex2000. It's easy if you try.

Thanks for bring so tough, fella.

I graduated from SERE school. It didn't make much sense to send me to ARTIC SERE training when I was flying over Iraq, being from Texas I hated every minute of it, I learned: 1) if I had to use my pistol to kill a rabbit for food, I'd be better off shooting myself and put myself out of my misery, 2) name, rank, serial number.

I quit a cushy job doing corporate M&A for a big E&P to go into the Navy. I had to get a waiver for asthma...that took 5 years to get after high-school. Despite being the smallest guy in OCS, I had the highest exit PFT score in my class. Instead of sailing a desk, I requested to fly with a recon squadron in OIF I. After that tour, I went into collection management/CI/HUMINT and worked a pipeline and election force protection det with the Brits in Al Basra. The local insurgents tried to assassinate me. I'm still around...they aren't.

As a naval intelligence officer that has worked closely with SWCCs in Al Basra, I can tell you definitively what is expected of a sailor in that situation. I'm not a SWCC, or John McCain, or a Marine. I wasn't a snake eater. I was an intel weanie. But I am tough, and unless you're some Delta Force guy who quit a cushy job to mush around in some forest while being chased by bloodhounds during a blizzard only to be caught and waterboarded at SERE, get shot at, and drive on roads with IEDs...I'm tougher than you. I had to be. And I expect every single one of my sailors and marines to be as tough because posters on football message boards with avatars of bonobos brandishing nickel-plated 45s depend on sailors and marines for the freedom to type whatever they want.

 

[nashhorn]

Hey ex_2, have you read Krakauer's story on Pat Tillman? If you have I'd like to hear your take. Got to me, really got to me,

 

[Horn6721]

texex2000,
Do you think the sailors on those boats would have been sent to SERE?
Among all the reportings on this incident is one that suggests the Navy Lt had been in touch with his own people right after the Iranians captured them.
from CNN:
"Commanders in the U.S. Navy's Fifth Fleet in the region became alarmed when the sailors missed a planned check-in call on their radios. At that point, commanders checked the GPS system tied to the boats and realized they were off course and inside Iranian water
A search-and-rescue effort was launched -- including sending a U.S. Navy vessel inside Iranians waters due to concern the sailors could have been overboard and in the water. The U.S. Navy informed Iranian military vessels in the area they were coming in for a search-and-rescue, the official said. There were "robust bridge-to-bridge communications" during that time, but there was no trouble, the official said.

But it then became known the 10 sailors had been taken ashore and diplomatic efforts to get them out quickly kicked in. The Pentagon is trying to confirm reports that one of the U.S. sailors spoke on bridge-to-bridge radios to the U.S. Navy during the incident."
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/14/politics/navy-boats-iran-waters/index.html

What if the Navy told the riverine officer to apologize?

 

[texas_ex2000]

texex2000,
Do you think the sailors on those boats would have been sent to SERE?
Among all the reportings on this incident is one that suggests the Navy Lt had been in touch with his own people right after the Iranians captured them.
from CNN:
"Commanders in the U.S. Navy's Fifth Fleet in the region became alarmed when the sailors missed a planned check-in call on their radios. At that point, commanders checked the GPS system tied to the boats and realized they were off course and inside Iranian water
A search-and-rescue effort was launched -- including sending a U.S. Navy vessel inside Iranians waters due to concern the sailors could have been overboard and in the water. The U.S. Navy informed Iranian military vessels in the area they were coming in for a search-and-rescue, the official said. There were "robust bridge-to-bridge communications" during that time, but there was no trouble, the official said.

But it then became known the 10 sailors had been taken ashore and diplomatic efforts to get them out quickly kicked in. The Pentagon is trying to confirm reports that one of the U.S. sailors spoke on bridge-to-bridge radios to the U.S. Navy during the incident."
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/14/politics/navy-boats-iran-waters/index.html

What if the Navy told the riverine officer to apologize?

Things have changed since I was in, but if these guys were SWCCs (riverine boats like this are part of SBU-22)...then yes, they almost certainly have been to SERE.

But you don't need to have been a SERE graduate to know how to act in that situation. Every service member memorizes the Code of Conduct in bootcamp.
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/readings/code_of_conduct.htm

V. When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

One thing that makes me wonder if they were SWCCs are:

1) There was a female sailor as part of the crew. Up till now, women were to my knowledge not allowed to be SWCCs. That may have changed since I left. It's more likely that she is a corpsman (medic) attached to this special warfare operation.

2) It's possible that the regular surface navy is trying new things as part of a strategy to improve littoral warfare capability. If this is an example of that hypothesis, than these guys may be regular surface sailors who don't get SERE training.

Also, I'm not saying they gave up nuclear codes or that every case of a statement is dishonorable. Not at all, everyone has a breaking point and will eventually talk. That's something taught at SERE.

BUT...these sailors were not near any semblance of that point. The Navy VQ-1 crew in the EP-3 that crashed landed in Hainan Island in 2001 were in a much more hostile situation...spy plane, collision with a Chinese Air Force fighter jet, AK-47s pointed right in their faces as they stormed the plane. But that crew did not talk. That's how you do it.

First, there will be a general court martial for the commander/POIC of those boats and probably the commanding officer of their unit. That's SOP for any ship from a nuclear submarine to a riverine boat lost at sea whether it's negligence, enemy action, or an act of God. That doesn't automatically mean people will get in trouble for this mechanical failure, although in this situation that looks like the case. GCMs are convened for situations like this to investigate and formally document the incident.

If I were his CO, I would convene a summary or special court martial (essentially misdemeanor level)* for that sailor who made that statement under UCMJ Articles 92 (failure to obey orders or regulations), 99 (misbehavior before the enemy), 105 (misconduct as a prisoner), and depending on that sailor's position on that crew 110 (improper hazarding of a vessel). As the legal officer, I'd recommend a lost of rate and maybe 30 days suspension of pay.

If he was ordered to say that by his superior, then of course he doesn't deserve any criticism. But that would never happen. The first thing an officer would tell him is, remember the Code of Conduct and we will get you out.

*Since he was an officer and the OIC, he will have a General Court Martial.

 

[Horn6721]

Texex2000
Thank you for taking the time to explain
I sure we will never know many of the facts
But seeing those sailors on their knees,hands behind and guns pointed at them should make any American sick at heart.
Some people think it was no big deal
It was.
Iran is surely milking the fact that they arrested sailors from the formerly mighty US NAVY
Since we are not at war with Iran do any of the Code of Conduct rules apply?
If the Iranians threatened the safety or lives of the Sailors do you think that would justify the Lt.apologizing?

 

[texas_ex2000]

Since we are not at war with Iran do any of the Code of Conduct rules apply?
If the Iranians threatened the safety or lives of the Sailors do you think that would justify the Lt.apologizing?

I'm sure that's what his JAG would argue. In this post Cold War world, it would be a losing argument. These guys were threatened by another armed force and had guns pointed at them. They were mariners in distress and should not have been taken prisoner for having a mechanical issue. If you are held against your will because you're a US service member the Code of Conduct applies.

The fact this guy was an officer makes it worse. I have yet to read one retired senior Navy/Marine Corps officer disagree. Since he was the officer in charge and the commander of these vessels, he will be court martialed regardless as a matter of procedure for vessels lost as sea.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...uld-be-punished-for-violating-basic-protocol/

 

[texas_ex2000]

Good editorial.

http://sofrep.com/46221/news-roundu...y-naked-woman-goes-ballistic-in-waffle-house/

 

[Clean]

Iran is surely milking the fact that they arrested sailors from the formerly mighty US NAVY

"Formerly mighty" are the key words there. If Hillary gets 8 years, they'll be patrolling the Gulf in 14' Lone Star Aluminum Bass Boats.

 

[swccdude]

Its been a while since I was in the Navy. I served with SBU-XI active duty and later with SBU-12 as a reservist. This is a special warefare unit ( naval special forces). You will never know the real story behind what happened. But I can tell you this. These guys are highly trained, receiving similar training to the SEALS with more focus on small boat tactics.( an yes some of us go to SERE training) As for the disabled boat, it happens, happened to us in Panama, but we are trained to repair the boat at sea, also various methods of towing. I can tell you that these guys would have been able to correct the situation and navigate back to international waters. We always ran into technical issues but we always had contingency plans. My opinion without any info, is they were ordered to stay put.

 

[texas_ex2000]

Its been a while since I was in the Navy. I served with SBU-XI active duty and later with SBU-12 as a reservist. This is a special warefare unit ( naval special forces). You will never know the real story behind what happened. But I can tell you this. These guys are highly trained, receiving similar training to the SEALS with more focus on small boat tactics.( an yes some of us go to SERE training) As for the disabled boat, it happens, happened to us in Panama, but we are trained to repair the boat at sea, also various methods of towing. I can tell you that these guys would have been able to correct the situation and navigate back to international waters. We always ran into technical issues but we always had contingency plans. My opinion without any info, is they were ordered to stay put.

SWCC,

I did a little more research. Like I hypothesized, the Navy set up specific Riverine Squadrons in 2006 (after I got out). While they might receive some specialized training, the officers and sailors in these units are regular surface sailors - not SWCCs. On LinkedIn I found a handful of female officers with riverine assignments. Women are not allowed into the NSW community (per SECDEF Ash, this will change in the near future).

Note the wiki article below describes these squadrons...these are not the SWCCs/SBUs.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Riverine_Squadron

This article describes the bada$$ SWCCs.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_warfare_combatant-craft_crewmen

 

[UTChE96]

So Kerry claims he was "very, very frustrated" when he saw the videos of the captured US soldiers being used to humiliate the US. And what exactly are the consequences to this aggression? This feckless administration has put us at so much higher risk because of their refusal to stand up to our enemies.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Humiliation...Iranian aggression...

I'm trying to reconcile these descriptions against the backdrop of how the US would react if the Iranians were captured in US territorial waters. I suspect the only difference is that we wouldn't publish the video in state controlled media. Approaching them with guns drawn, forcing the Iranians on their knees while we take control of their boat/weapons would likely be SOP but others could answer more specifically.

Keep in mind, Iran held the soldiers and boats for only 24hrs. Iran is not remotely magnanimous by any stretch but most of their actions in this affair would be very similar to how I'd anticipate the US to react.

 

[UTChE96]

To be clear, the aggression I was referring to was the publishing of the videos not the capturing of the ship.

I suspect the only difference is that we wouldn't publish the video in state controlled media.

That's quite a difference. It's pretty clear that Iran was intentionally trying to humiliate the US by publishing these videos.

 

[Seattle Husker]

To be clear, the aggression I was referring to was the publishing of the videos not the capturing of the ship.


That's quite a difference. It's pretty clear that Iran was intentionally trying to humiliate the US by publishing these videos.

So, you are worried about the government propaganda/spin, not the treatment of the sailors?

 

[UTChE96]

So, you are worried about the government propaganda/spin, not the treatment of the sailors?

Could you explain to me why Kerry was "very, very frustrated" and "very angry" by these videos?

 

[Seattle Husker]

Could you explain to me why Kerry was "very, very frustrated" by these videos?

My simpleton response would be "because he has to show concern because the right made a big deal out of it". Again, we're talking purely about optics now, not the sailor treatment. This is pure politics which is why I'm having trouble using terms like "aggression" and "humiliation".