What is Socialism?

[Horn6721]

Vol
I read an analysis, on here?, that showed that yes maybe they voted Dem in first election but realization of how good their lives out of Calif . converted them in subsequent elections.
2020 will be interesting here in Texas

 

[Horn6721]

So in Ca you can pee and poop on the sidewalk but you get penalized for being clean?

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[Joe Fan]

The Moscow Metro is now featuring the face of Joseph Stalin.
For the uniformed, Stalin was probably the single worst murderer in the history of humanity, who responsible for multiple genocides.
It's like if Hitler's face was plastered all over the U-Bahn in Berlin. Maybe even worse.

 

[bystander]

The Moscow Metro is now featuring the face Joseph Stalin.
For the uniformed, Stalin was probably the single worst murderer in the history of humanity, who responsible for multiple genocides.
It's like if Hitler's face was plastered all over the U-Bahn in Berlin. Maybe even worse.

Apparently the power and fear of the Soviet Union is an aphrodisiac to the locals.

 

[BevoJoe]

The Moscow Metro is now featuring the face of Joseph Stalin.
For the uniformed, Stalin was probably the single worst murderer in the history of humanity, who responsible for multiple genocides.
It's like if Hitler's face was plastered all over the U-Bahn in Berlin. Maybe even worse.

BUT, Hitler lost. Stalin was on the winning side.

 

[Joe Fan]

BUT, Hitler lost. Stalin was on the winning side.

In hindsight, should FDR have held off giving Stalin US aid?
Just let the nazis and commies kill each other off, then enter at a more advantageous and safer time.

 

[Joe Fan]

Getting back to the original question -- some fotos of Mao's version of socialism

 

[Monahorns]

In hindsight, should FDR have held off giving Stalin US aid?
Just let the nazis and commies kill each other off, then enter at a more advantageous and safer time.

When did FDR give Stalin aid?

The tough part was kicking out Germany from France and keeping them out of UK helped Stalin too. It would have been great to limit the war to the international socialists vs the national socialists.

 

[Horn6721]

Mona
IIRC FDR did lend lease with Russia

 

[Monahorns]

Ah. He shouldn't have done that. Wish we could have convinced China to go Capitalist in the 40s.

 

[BevoJoe]

In hindsight, should FDR have held off giving Stalin US aid?
Just let the nazis and commies kill each other off, then enter at a more advantageous and safer time.

Hitler lost the war when he failed to subdue Britain and then invaded the USSR in late June '41. He was fighting a two front war, three if North Africa is included, since he sent Rommel and the Afrika Korps to save Mussolini's butt. Had he listened to his generals and scientists and waited until 1943 or 1944, he would have had jet fighter aircraft, an arsenal of long range missiles, and potentially atomic weapons.

If the US had stayed neutral (provided Pearl Harbor never happened) the Russians may have overrun all of Europe regardless of whether or not we supplied them. But who really knows.

 

[Joe Fan]

When did FDR give Stalin aid?....

They might not have made it without us. They claimed they wouldnt at the time.

 

[Joe Fan]

Ah. He shouldn't have done that. Wish we could have convinced China to go Capitalist in the 40s.

Patton begged to be allowed to get them out of Eastern Europe. Would have saved 50 years of slavery for those poor people. But folks here were tired of war. And Patton then died at the end of 1945 anyway (by accident).

 

[Joe Fan]

...If the US had stayed neutral (provided Pearl Harbor never happened) the Russians may have overrun all of Europe regardless of whether or not we supplied them. But who really knows.

My argument was and still is that the Germans could have taken them had we refused to aid Stalin + no western front. They almost did even with those events (German tanks got within 5 miles of Moscow). Harsh weather did not help. My question was was simple - if the two worst inventions in human history, communism and nazism, want to kill each other off, why didnt we just get out of their way? Our inability to simply keep our noses out of everything hurt us.

Lastly, I dont see any way the Russians could have taken and held Western Europe at that time. But, as you say, who knows?

 

[Horn6721]

But Joe Fan what about the millions more who would have died?
IF it could have been just the German and Russian army I would be ok with that.

 

[Chop]

Hitler lost the war when he failed to subdue Britain and then invaded the USSR in late June '41. He was fighting a two front war, three if North Africa is included, since he sent Rommel and the Afrika Korps to save Mussolini's butt. Had he listened to his generals and scientists and waited until 1943 or 1944, he would have had jet fighter aircraft, an arsenal of long range missiles, and potentially atomic weapons.

If the US had stayed neutral (provided Pearl Harbor never happened) the Russians may have overrun all of Europe regardless of whether or not we supplied them. But who really knows.

The Germans did end up having to “save Mussolini’s butt” alright. Italy was pretty worthless as an ally in WW2.

At sea—On paper, Italy had a good battleship and cruiser fleet to control the Med, but they were ineffective operators. Also, the Brits pulled a Pearl Harbor on Italy (before the actual attack on Pearl Harbor) and sank and disabled a bunch of Italian capital ships with carrier aircraft while the Italian fleet was in port at Taranto. Japan took notice. Of course, the Brits and Italy were already at war at the time of the battle of Taranto.

On land—the Germans complained a lot about the cowardice of their Italian pals who would frequently turn tail and run under fire. The Latin/Romance language countries didn’t show very well in that war. (France, Italy...). However, Romania did, and apparently they made some of the most badass Axis soldiers.

All of them were socialist to some degree or another.

 

[Monahorns]

Patton begged to be allowed to get them out of Eastern Europe. Would have saved 50 years of slavery for those poor people. But folks here were tired of war. And Patton then died at the end of 1945 anyway (by accident).

JF, the problem was FDR loved Stalin and was trying to introduce Stalin's policies in the US though more subtly. They had been friends since the 20s. FDR wasn't going to let him buddy starve.

 

[Monahorns]

My question was was simple - if the two worst inventions in human history, communism and nazism, want to kill each other off, why didnt we just get out of their way? Our inability to simply keep our noses out of everything hurt us.

You just explained American foreign policy since 1898.

 

[BevoJoe]

My argument was and still is that the Germans could have taken them had we refused to aid Stalin + no western front. They almost did even with those events (German tanks got within 5 miles of Moscow). Harsh weather did not help. My question was was simple - if the two worst inventions in human history, communism and nazism, want to kill each other off, why didnt we just get out of their way? Our inability to simply keep our noses out of everything hurt us.

Lastly, I dont see any way the Russians could have taken and held Western Europe at that time. But, as you say, who knows?

You make good points, but is the assumption that the Germans would have knocked Britain out of the war? If so, then there is most likely no British forces in north Africa and the German-Italian forces could cross the Nile in Egypt, swing up through Palestine, Syria, Jordan and there has been a concern that Turkey might have joined the Axis. That would have put the Russians on two fronts, one coming from the Germans in Occupied Poland and from the Balkans, and the other from Turkey into the Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia area or the USSR, effectively cutting of the Russians from their oil producing fields in in those areas. The Ukrainians were more inclined to join up with the Nazi's than to fight them for the Russians. As I think about it more, that would have cut the Russians to pieces in the west and in the Caucasus. But the question is, could the Germans and their allies overrun the entire Soviet Union? Perhaps they could have pushed them beyond the Urals into Siberia, and as long as the Japanese don't bomb Pearl, the Japanese might have been able to cut off any supplies coming from the far east. And with Hitler's support in Palestine by Mohammed Amin al-Husseini the muslim leader who wanted to get the remaining Jews and British out of that area, there may very well have never been an Israel established. Lot's of "what if's" can be developed as to what might have happened and are interesting to speculate, but history is what history is.

 

[Joe Fan]

You just explained American foreign policy since 1898.

Teddy Roosevelt smack is not something we see every day. Bravo

 

[Joe Fan]

You make good points, but is the assumption that the Germans would have knocked Britain out of the war?

I was assuming that they would do what they did, hold on. That there would eventually have to be a D-Day invasion but only after the Germans and Soviets had inflicted maximum casualties on each other first. My approach is usually asking what might have been best for the US while saving most or all of Eastern Europe from the horrors of living under the thumb of the communists.

 

[nashhorn]

Loving my HF history lessons! You guys are awesome.

 

[Monahorns]

It's McKinley smack, but thanks.

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[Joe Fan]

It's McKinley smack, but thanks.

July 1898 - San Juan Hill

 

[Joe Fan]

Socialism is always just one more execution away from utopia

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[BevoJoe]

Socialism is always just one more execution away from utopia

That pic looks like it might be from the Russian revolution which ushered in communism. But might be from the Chinese revolution under Mao also a communist take over.

 

[Joe Fan]

That pic looks like it might be from the Russian revolution which ushered in communism. But might be from the Chinese revolution under Mao also a communist take over.

Mao