What bugs me about Pope Francis

Told you it wouldn't satisfy you :smile1:

I really haven't kept up, busy at work, but do you mind sharing or directing me to where he talked about redistribution of wealth? I assume he said it recently?

Thats interesting :hookem:
 
I've noticed, the little I've been able to watch, how both liberals and conserves ride the Pope's coattails if they feel it lines up with the doctrines of their political party.

Its funny to watch.
 
I've noticed, the little I've been able to watch, how both liberals and conserves ride the Pope's coattails if they feel it lines up with the doctrines of their political party.
Its funny to watch.
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It used to be funny to me, but I'm pretty tired of politicos and political peachers telling me what Jesus would do and what the Pope should believe. Much of the modern preaching doesn't seem like a natural extension of what I read in the scriptures. Maybe there's a fifth Gospel out there where Jesus rails endlessly about homosexuals and lays off the uncaring rich?

I love capitalism and the wealth and freedom it creates. I just don't belive my wealth beyond on the sustenance level is or was a big deal to Jesus.
 


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LonghornCatholic said:
Told you it wouldn't satisfy you :smile1:
I really haven't kept up, busy at work, but do you mind sharing or directing me to where he talked about redistribution of wealth? I assume he said it recently?
Thats interesting :hookem:
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Today on wealth redistributionism--
"We are asked to summon the courage and the intelligence to resolve today’s many geopolitical and economic crises. Even in the developed world, the effects of unjust structures and actions are all too apparent. Our efforts must aim at restoring hope, righting wrongs, maintaining commitments, and thus promoting the well-being of individuals and of peoples. We must move forward together, as one, in a renewed spirit of fraternity and solidarity, cooperating generously for the common good."

Also --
"If politics must truly be at the service of the human person, it follows that it cannot be a slave to the economy and finance. Politics is, instead, an expression of our compelling need to live as one, in order to build as one the greatest common good: that of a community which sacrifices particular interests in order to share, in justice and peace, its goods, its interests, its social life. I do not underestimate the difficulty that this involves, but I encourage you in this effort."
Getting pretty close to Mao there^

You didnt know that he called it “the dung of the devil"? http://nypost.com/2015/07/13/pope-francis-apologizes-for-neglecting-middle-class/

Here he hates on "the invisible hand" http://w2.vatican.va/content/france...-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si.html

Here he hates on "trickle-down" http://w2.vatican.va/content/france...sortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html

Here he refers to capitalism as “a new tyranny” http://nypost.com/2013/11/27/pope-francis-attacks-unfettered-capitalism/
 
Joe Fan: With all due respect, I look at the Pope's quotes and can't find anything controversial for a Christian leader. You want something more wealth-friendly? Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer or Joel Osteen are rich folks preaching to folks praying to be rich. Again, I advocate capitalism and would love to have more money. I just don't find it a "spiritual" issue and am not particularly uplifted by those who do.
 
Here is The Economist trying to deal with his lack of any criticisms of "non-capitalist" regimes
http://www.economist.com/blogs/eras...ezuela?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/PopeCubaVenezuela

THE SENTENCING of Venezuela's opposition leader, Leopoldo López, to nearly 14 years in prison, on top of the 18 months he has already spent in mostly-solitary confinement, triggered a range of different reactions. Amnesty International, a global human-rights lobby, said of the verdict: “The charges against [him] were never adequately substantiated and the prison sentence against him is clearly politically motivated. His only ‘crime’ was being leader of an opposition party in Venezuela.” Human Rights Watch, another international watch-dog, spoke of "egregious violations" of due process. Mr López himself sent a hand-written note from jail saying that he had been fully aware of the consequences when he defied pressure from the regime to leave the country. "My soul, my ideals and my love for you are flying high in the skies above our beautiful Venezuela," he wrote to his wife and two children.

What about the Vatican? Considering that this is an overwhelmingly Catholic country where the Holy See has strong connections (its secretary of state Pietro Parolin was serving there till 2013) and that Mr López himself is Catholic, people might have expected Pope Francis or at least a senior Vatican spokesman to issue an instant condemnation of the verdict. But for better or worse, that is not the current papacy's way; it prefers to make its feelings known more discreetly, and to leave things to local bishops.......

* * *
In an Orwellian touch, Mr López was deemed responsible for "subliminally" fomenting violence even though he spoke only of peaceful protest. On the lips of clerics, however, the use of "subliminal" language is generally more acceptable; people half-expect clerics to speak in enigmatic terms as their faith's founder sometimes did. So if there are diplomatic reasons why certain human-rights abuses can't be condemned openly, people hope that the pope will at least condemn them subliminally.
 
Crockett said:
Joe Fan: With all due respect, I look at the Pope's quotes and can't find anything controversial for a Christian leader. ....
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Really? The Dung of the Devil?

How about if he just stays out of politics, economic theory and science completely? And, you know, just instead sticks to the actual job description.

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QUOTE]How about if he just stays out of politics, economic theory and science completely?[/QUOTE]

So did Jesus avoid speaking about money? As far as "science" I guess you find fault with the Pope's concrn about the environment. The Pope is pretty much in the mainstream of world thought, though obviously opinion in this country is very skewed by the political communication. I think this is one of the few places in the world where man's impact on Global Climate Change is controversial.
 
I am surprised at the number of newly religious people. All of a sudden even leftists( many of whom have denigrated Christianity for years) are praising the Holy Father.
 
Christian leaders have always been looking to "expand the base." The best leave a lasting impact, not by diluting the Gospel, but rather inspiring belief in it. Good luck Pope Francis in winning converts for Christ!
 
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Horn6721 said:
I am surprised at the number of newly religious people. All of a sudden even leftists( many of whom have denigrated Christianity for years) are praising the Holy Father.
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That sounds like what missionaries have been attempting for centuries. Personally, I think it's refreshing to see a Pope that is walking the walk of what he preaches and rather simply be a figurehead for a multi-national corporation he's trying to use the influence of the role for good.

Yes, he is socialist based on what I'm reading but there was a key statement in what he said today that may be the most salient to me, a Catholic outsider:

All of us are quite aware of, and deeply worried by, the disturbing social and political situation of the world today. Our world is increasingly a place of violent conflict, hatred and brutal atrocities, committed even in the name of God and of religion. We know that no religion is immune from forms of individual delusion or ideological extremism. This means that we must be especially attentive to every type of fundamentalism, whether religious or of any other kind. A delicate balance is required to combat violence perpetrated in the name of a religion, an ideology or an economic system, while also safeguarding religious freedom, intellectual freedom and individual freedoms. But there is another temptation which we must especially guard against: the simplistic reductionism which sees only good or evil; or, if you will, the righteous and sinners. The contemporary world, with its open wounds which affect so many of our brothers and sisters, demands that we confront every form of polarization which would divide it into these two camps. We know that in the attempt to be freed of the enemy without, we can be tempted to feed the enemy within. To imitate the hatred and violence of tyrants and murderers is the best way to take their place. That is something which you, as a people, reject.
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I've stated it before, unfettered Capitalism can be as destructive as fundamentalist religions. Sure, some are helped but it can have an equally destructive impact on others. There are many examples of a corporation raping the environment with little gain to the local population or despots gaining massive wealth allowing companies to prosper at the expense of locals. In the US, Capitalism has done many good things and has been a key differentiator in terms of our wealth vs. other countries. I'm not delusional to believe that a portion of that wealth isn't related to less than equitable deals with governments that we knew wouldn't help local populations. The income gap being stretched out in the last 30 years is becoming a problem. Somehow we need to course correct or eventually the bourgeoisie will find themselves overthrown. I say this will sitting in the bourgeoisie camp.
 
unfettered capitalism, where? What capitalism isn't regulated or needing a permit of some type that is legal in this country? Not socialist enough is probably what he meant to say about certain transactions that aren't giving directly or benefiting the Catholic Church. (more or less)

I don't have a problem at all with what the Catholic Church does for the most part. They should practice what they preach however, in my opinion. Also, the Pope should bless us long suffering Rangers fans.
 
zork said:
unfettered capitalism, where?
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Research papers have surely been written about unregulated markets for derivatives (i.e. CDOs). The deregulation started in '98. Clearly the pendulum swung too far towards deregulation but still the Dodd-Frank bill withers due to the power of lobbyists.
 
Seattle Husker said:
Research papers have surely been written about unregulated markets for derivatives (i.e. CDOs). The deregulation started in '98. Clearly the pendulum swung too far towards deregulation but still the Dodd-Frank bill withers due to the power of lobbyists.
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SH,

Government regulations and policies which promoted subprime lending artifically deflated the risk of capital. That is the real answer.
 
The Golden Rule also reminds us of our responsibility to protect and defend human life at every stage of its development.

This conviction has led me, from the beginning of my ministry, to advocate at different levels for the global abolition of the death penalty. I am convinced that this way is the best, since every life is sacred, every human person is endowed with an inalienable dignity, and society can only benefit from the rehabilitation of those convicted of crimes. Recently my brother bishops here in the United States renewed their call for the abolition of the death penalty. Not only do I support them, but I also offer encouragement to all those who are convinced that a just and necessary punishment must never exclude the dimension of hope and the goal of rehabilitation.
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I think this is a perfect example of what bugs me about this pope. He makes a very brief and general allusion to abortion but an extended and very specific condemnation of the death penalty. The death penalty affects a handful of egregious killers who have been found guilty through due process. While abortion affects millions of innocent, unborn children without any due process. Why would he prioritize the death penalty over abortion?

Its not so much that he says anything wrong. His priorities are just highly confused.
 
texas_ex2000 said:
SH,

Government regulations and policies which promoted subprime lending artifically deflated the risk of capital. That is the real answer.
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That's part of the answer. The lack of rules and oversight that allowed banks to carry the risk off their books is another part.
 
Seattle Husker said:
That's part of the answer. The lack of rules and oversight that allowed banks to carry the risk off their books is another part.
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I'm not saying the system couldn't have benefited from changes, but you don't understand what happened. All the oversight and rules in the world mean nothing if the assets are incorrectly priced.

The government was responsible for setting capital adequacy requirements against various classes of risky assets...risky assets who's pricing were distorted by government intervention.
 
I know I shouldn't be like this but I kind of like how Pope Francis pisses people off.
Shouldn't really get a kick out of it, but I do :smile1:.

People shouldn't get too insane about him though, the politicians will be back to their usual bickering biased ways before the Pope's train hits take off.
 
http://thefederalist.com/2015/09/23/cuba-visit-shows-pope-francis-is-no-john-paul-ii/

If you have not read it, I would encourage you all to read this full transcript of the Pope’s interview on the plane from Cuba to America. It does not read like an interview with a faith leader, but with a politician. He is leaving a meeting with an explicitly anti-Christian Communist dictator, and he is being asked why he would glad-hand with a dying tyrant while ignoring the many dissidents who wanted to meet with him. He even suggests that those who accuse him of political idiocy are extremists who assess him on the basis of his shoes instead of his ideas. The interview reads like one of a cornered politician, defensive and old, not crafty enough to work around the not very clever questions from journalists. The part where he offers “Hey, maybe one of the wheelchair guys was a dissident?” reads like a line from Veep. They are the answers of somebody embarrassed by the real answer.

This is not always the way it was. Contrast with John Paul II, on 2 June 1979, in Warsaw. He was 59 to Francis’s 78, a young Pope, a Polish Pope, speaking less than a year after his selection. He was speaking in the heart of Soviet military power in Eastern Europe, an occupied capital, under the guns. Over a million people turn out to see him. It is perhaps the largest Mass in the history of the Catholic Church… until the following week in Krakow, when two million will turn out. He is standing in a city run by a government dedicated to atheistic Communism, to subservience to Soviet power, to the rejection of faith and the domination of every thought to the service of the collective.

And the crowd roared back:

We want God!
We want God!
We want God in the family!
We want God in books!
We want God in schools!
We want God in government!

The men with guns could only watch, and see in this spontaneous chant the beginning of the end of their tyrannical atheist empire.

The change did not happen overnight. It was a decade’s worth of work by Pope John Paul II that brought change, that brought down the wall, that ended tyranny in Europe and the subjugation of millions. In 1987, he went back to Poland, gave a speech at Gdansk, and made sure to use the word “solidarity” six or seven times in his sermon. Talks on power sharing opened soon after. And the world changed.

The Pope is one of the few prominent people in the world who can change the conversation simply by saying things that others cannot. This Pope, to me, says the things many others say, all the time and everywhere, in the pages of the New York Times. So it is odd that he is deployed so frequently by the media – not because he is saying anything interesting, but because he is saying what is familiar to them, what they recognize, what they see in themselves. They look at those remarks on the plane and find them useful and brave. I find them tedious and cowardly.
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

I still believe that. I believe in the United States our rights come from God. I don't believe Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness come from dictators who may summarily take away rights and subjugate us to government. Compassion comes from individual industry and character.
 
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You'd think the Pope would be smart enough to know the difference between a legal immigrant and an illegal immigrant.

when will he go to Mexico, with far more many Catholics and chastise them for not taking in "immigrants"? or how about at the Vatican? How many immigrant will he allow in? I am sure the so called Syrian migrants aren't too ashamed to accept help from the Vatican. With all those rooms they can take in quite a lot
AND they won't have to borrow money to give them a life. The Vatican could sell some of its' wealth. Maybe some it realized from exploitation of natives in Calif down to South America.

Instead the Vatican is hostile to migrants.
Mexico is hostile to migrants. So he calls on USA to go further in debt and to overload and likely shut down services to help people who cam through or came from the 10th( or 11th) wealthiest country in the word.
When the Vatican announces they are taking in thousands of migrants and selling off some of the vast wealth to pay for more then the Pope will have a tiny tiny ( we still do more than any other country ) right to call us hostile.
 
Didn't the Pope direct every catholic church in the Europe to take in a refugee family? I'd agree that the Vatican can and should certainly take on more but that's a start.
 
I missed the Pope saying that. Do you have a link? 1 family per church?
Ah geez Husker you are right, I guess it is a start.
 
Horn6721 said:
I missed the Pope saying that. Do you have a link? 1 family per church?
Ah geez Husker you are right, I guess it is a start.
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Yeah, that seemed light to me but there are 285m Catholics in Europe. I don't know how many churches they have but an estimate of 15,000 churches (19,000 Catholics per parish) would make a healthy dent in the refugee crisis especially given that Middle Eastern families tend to be quite large.
 
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