What bugs me about Pope Francis

[texas_ex2000]

In the spirit of Pope Francis' visit, I'd like to hear some thoughts of other Longhorn Catholics. I'm Catholic. Not just a Sunday only buffet line Catholic, but a Catholic with an unshakeable relationship with God and who celebrates that relationship through the Roman Catholic Church. Now, I am not a perfect Catholic...HOLY SMOKES far from it. I'm a weak human being. I'm weak because often I don't have the constitution to live the right life and weak because often I'm just ignorant or a dick or both. But I try hard to be compassionate and faithful.

That said, as a spiritual leader, I prefer Pope John-Paul (and even Benedict) 100x more then Francis. And here's why.

1) His authority/wisdom on certain matters is overblown - the Pope's infallibility is on spiritual matters. E.g., is there a purgatory, how does God view original sin (what I'd like to call simply being a human being), why do I take communion, etc. The Pope has no special wisdom on what kind of car I should buy. He is not endowed with some special expertise on micro or macro-economic theory or financial markets. Although he used to be a high-school chemistry teacher, he does not have some higher awareness of environmental science or the laws of physics.

2) God does not have a preferred economic system - Economic systems are man-made phenomena. God just wants us to take care of each other and have a relationship with Him. There is not a single American Catholic who disagrees that we need to take care of the less fortunate or the marginalized or that we are shepherds of this planet. Not a single one. This "community" emphasis has always been a central tenant of Catholicism that often differentiated it from American Protestantism that focuses on an individual's personal relationship with Jesus. But the Bible does not specify a preferred economic system that best accomplishes those tenants. Yet, Pope Francis has railed against capitalism.

Riddle me this - over the last 100 years, which countries, capitalist or socialist, have better human rights and environmental track records? I know what Saint John-Paul II would say.

3) He's focusing too much on optics over substance and non-Catholics are totally missing the important stuff - People are falling over themselves when Francis says, "Who am I to judge?" Uhhh...that's how I was raised and what was preached to us since I could remember. Love does win...we're suppose to love and care for our neighbors unconditionally. Not news, not new doctrine. But judging or not judging has nothing to do with understanding (original) sin, sacraments, or humanity's relationship with God. Francis knows this.

And here's where the rubber meets the road...the Catholic Church will never have same-sex marriage. And for the non-Catholic "Love Wins" types, Love is only one part of the sacrament of marriage in the Catholic Faith. Marriage in the Catholic Church is very much about our relationship with God. And hey...if you're not Catholic, you can believe whatever you want, I'm not going to judge and of course if you're a close gay friend and you're getting married in a civil ceremony, non-Christian, or even some Christian-lite (which I wouldn't even recognize) ceremony I'd be there to support you my friend. But as the Pope, Francis should be speaking to what the sacrament of marriage means in our relationship to God as a Catholic.

I also don't hear enough from him on the sanctity of life and protecting the MOST VULNERABLE, MOST MARGINALIZED, and MOST DISENFRANCHISED in our world. Maybe he's talking about it all the time and the media is selectively picking what to cover on him, but let me just say I've had enough about his encyclical on global warming on Sundays. I've been going to my particular parish for about 5 years and I have yet to hear ONE FREAKING homily on abortion. Francis needs to step up on this.

 

[Horn6721]

I am not a Catholic.
I think his view of the world is completely skewed by living in Argentina. He appears to have zero idea how a real republic with a free enterprise system works or how much better our system is for the "poor"
he frankly is irritating in his ignorance

 

[texas_ex2000]

In his encyclical he says the World is "immense pile of filth." Well, of course that's what he would think...he's lived his entire life in Argentina and Italy.

And here's another thing. Tens of millions of African lives were saved by PEPFAR. A little less than 20 years after it was established generations of Africans will actually live in an effectively HIV free world. That was unthinkable before PEPFAR. And which organization had the greatest impact in PEPFAR? Catholic Relief Services. CRS is The State Department's preferred NGO in Africa because of their infrastructure in developing countries. In 2014, CRS spent $600 million on humanitarian program spending. Since their inception, CRS has probably spent tens of billions of public and private funds on helping the marginalized and weak. If there is another non-profit organization in the world that has had that sort of impact, I am not aware of it.

And where was CRS founded? The United States of America. And who supports CRS with their private contributions? Americans...Americans of all faiths, rich Americans, middle-class Americans, and poor Americans. And from where do they get their major international grants? From American taxpayers via the United States Department of State. How is this organization able to help save tens of millions of lives?

Because f'in capitalism.

 

[Seattle Husker]

texasEx_2000 - You could have simply said you don't agree with the Pope's liberal views.

I was baptized and married Catholic but I'm not practicing. I believe that Pope Francis was the exactly what a dying Church needed. He brought energy and a recognition that modernization of the church was required to keep it relevant. The pontiff turned the Roman Catholic Church from one that had lost it's mission, to help the needy. I left the church because every Catholic Church I attended in Seattle cared about 1 thing, $$$. Sure they did some public good but that was vastly offset by the Bishops and Priests riding around in luxury cars living in Mcmansions. What Francis brought back to the church was a grounding of their original purpose, to do God's work on Earth.

Clearly he rubs the American Christian Right the wrong way. Afterall, they are often emblematic of the hypocrisy he's citing in the church itself. He's also expanded his desire to help the needy beyond traditional church methods. Francis is directly speaking to global issues that he sees are impacting these needy. He's becoming their voice. Are his views bordering on socialist? Absolutely but does anyone believe Francis is espousing them out of selfish interests? I don't. If his railing against Capitalism can add some balance then is that a bad thing? His views on the environment? That's mainstream everywhere else in the world.

 

[Horns11]

Agreed on point #1.

As for point #2, I think he's trying to reiterate what you're essentially saying and pointing out the flaws with marginalizing the people who are harmed the most by capitalism. I don't think he loves Soviet Russia either, but it's tough to deny that there are people whose lives/dependencies at an hourly-wage job (or two at once) aren't any better.

"Riddle me this - over the last 100 years, which countries, capitalist or socialist, have better human rights and environmental track records?"

I'd say pretty much every Scandinavian country, or Switzerland, but that's pretty much it.

I don't really have an opinion about your 3rd point. Is it that he should be talking about more challenging topics?

 

[texas_ex2000]

texasEx_2000 - You could have simply said you don't agree with the Pope's liberal views.

SH, was there something in my OP that is inaccurate?

Perhaps your politics are clouding your perspective on the Pontiff. In fact all the media coverage of Francis is somehow political.

And if you like "balance," then you must love Hukabee or Carson in this age of Obama and Sanders. The paradigm of "balance" you're alluding to leads to extremism and division.

Absolutely but does anyone believe Francis is espousing them out of selfish interests?

Uh no...I'm pretty sure it's just ignorance. Which honestly, is much more dangerous.

 

[Seattle Husker]

SH, was there something in my OP that is inaccurate?

Perhaps your politics are clouding your perspective on the Pontiff. In fact all the media coverage of Francis is somehow political.

And if you like "balance," then you must love Hukabee or Carson in this age of Obama and Sanders. The paradigm of "balance" you're alluding to leads to extremism.

I'm sure my politics are clouding my perspective, just as they are yours I suspect. I'll readily admit my many interactions with the Roman Catholic church over my 40+ years prior to Francis is also clouding my judgment.

I'm fairly certain that the Pope wouldn't disparage CSR. In fact, he'd probably say they need MORE of that from not just the US but other countries who aren't as generous.

I haven't read his encyclical. Educate me.

 

[texas_ex2000]

I'm sure my politics are clouding my perspective, just as they are yours I suspect.

Again, I'd ask what in my OP would you call inaccurate? And if my politics were clouding my judgment, it's because Francis is talking about politics as opposed to spirituality.

he'd probably say they need MORE of that from not just the US but other countries who aren't as generous.

Unfortunately, railing against capitalism weakens organizations such as CRS while also perpetuating polarization of wealth and poverty in the developing world.

I haven't read his encyclical. Educate me.

Trust me...it's the featured event if you go to mass on Sunday.

 

[TheWalkingHorn]

In the spirit of Pope Francis' visit, I'd like to hear some thoughts of other Longhorn Catholics. I'm Catholic. Not just a Sunday only buffet line Catholic, but a Catholic with an unshakeable relationship with God and who celebrates that relationship through the Roman Catholic Church. Now, I am not a perfect Catholic...HOLY SMOKES far from it. I'm a weak human being. I'm weak because often I don't have the constitution to live the right life and weak because often I'm just ignorant or a dick or both. But I try hard to be compassionate and faithful.

That said, as a spiritual leader, I prefer Pope John-Paul (and even Benedict) 100x more then Francis. And here's why.

1) His authority/wisdom on certain matters is overblown - the Pope's infallibility is on spiritual matters. E.g., is there a purgatory, how does God view original sin (what I'd like to call simply being a human being), why do I take communion, etc. The Pope has no special wisdom on what kind of car I should buy. He is not endowed with some special expertise on micro or macro-economic theory or financial markets. Although he used to be a high-school chemistry teacher, he does not have some higher awareness of environmental science or the laws of physics.

2) God does not have a preferred economic system - Economic systems are man-made phenomena. God just wants us to take care of each other and have a relationship with Him. There is not a single American Catholic who disagrees that we need to take care of the less fortunate or the marginalized or that we are shepherds of this planet. Not a single one. This "community" emphasis has always been a central tenant of Catholicism that often differentiated it from American Protestantism that focuses on an individual's personal relationship with Jesus. But the Bible does not specify a preferred economic system that best accomplishes those tenants. Yet, Pope Francis has railed against capitalism.

Riddle me this - over the last 100 years, which countries, capitalist or socialist, have better human rights and environmental track records? I know what Saint John-Paul II would say.

3) He's focusing too much on optics over substance and non-Catholics are totally missing the important stuff - People are falling over themselves when Francis says, "Who am I to judge?" Uhhh...that's how I was raised and what was preached to us since I could remember. Love does win...we're suppose to love and care for our neighbors unconditionally. Not news, not new doctrine. But judging or not judging has nothing to do with understanding (original) sin, sacraments, or humanity's relationship with God. Francis knows this.

And here's where the rubber meets the road...the Catholic Church will never have same-sex marriage. And for the non-Catholic "Love Wins" types, Love is only one part of the sacrament of marriage in the Catholic Faith. Marriage in the Catholic Church is very much about our relationship with God. And hey...if you're not Catholic, you can believe whatever you want, I'm not going to judge and of course if you're a close gay friend and you're getting married in a civil ceremony, non-Christian, or even some Christian-lite (which I wouldn't even recognize) ceremony I'd be there to support you my friend. But as the Pope, Francis should be speaking to what the sacrament of marriage means in our relationship to God as a Catholic.

I also don't hear enough from him on the sanctity of life and protecting the MOST VULNERABLE, MOST MARGINALIZED, and MOST DISENFRANCHISED in our world. Maybe he's talking about it all the time and the media is selectively picking what to cover on him, but let me just say I've had enough about his encyclical on global warming on Sundays. I've been going to my particular parish for about 5 years and I have yet to hear ONE FREAKING homily on abortion. Francis needs to step up on this.

I left the Catholic church for the reasons in bold above. For one, I am a supporter of marriage equality, and I am in a loving relationship with a non-believer. So, according the definition you just posted above, I guess I should not be Catholic. I'm sure there are gay couples who both have a relationship with god, so I don't see why they can't be Catholic, and be lovingly accepted into their community of fellow believers.

The very last time I went to mass (about a year and a half ago) there were pleas to join a "prayer group" outside an abortion clinic. While I do believe that all they were going to do was pray and not protest, their mere presence outside the abortion clinic opened up the possibility to make women feel bad about their decisions or themselves. There is no way I could live with that. I don't know these women's stories and it's not my place to make them feel bad about what is likely one of the hardest days of their lives.

Besides these reasons I also just felt myself questioning religion in general. I won't completely deny the existence of a higher being because this universe is full of oddities and wonderment, but I highly doubt it (at least as it's presented in the bible).

I do miss the tradition and ceremony of Catholic mass. The imagery was beautiful, and I admire the charitable work of the church. However, the Catholic church pushed me out long before I left it.

 

[texas_ex2000]

So, according the definition you just posted above, I guess I should not be Catholic.

That is completely NOT what that means.

I'm sure there are gay couples who both have a relationship with god, so I don't see why they can't be Catholic

They can ABSOLUTELY be Catholic. And while admittedly frowned upon (for perspective A LOT of things are frowned upon), I'd say a gay couple in a relationship would be completely welcomed in church and receive communion.

My goodness, if we are talking about sin (which I know non-Christians or liberals will scoff in indignation) there are probably 10 parishioners who committed worst sins for every gay parishioner in a relationship. I would say that's the whole point of Church, whether you're straight or gay, is to accept our humanity and become closer to God.

and be lovingly accepted into their community of fellow believers.

I don't know what church you went to, but every Catholic church I've been a member of does this.

 

[TheWalkingHorn]

That is completely NOT what that means.

They can ABSOLUTELY be Catholic. And while admittedly frowned upon (for perspective A LOT of things are frowned upon), I'd say a gay couple in a relationship would be completely welcomed in church and receive communion.

My goodness, if we are talking about sin (which I know liberals will scoff in indignation) there are probably 10 parishioners who committed worst sins for every gay parishioner in a relationship. I would say that's the whole point of Church, whether you're straight or gay, is to accept our humanity and become closer to God.

I don't know what church you went to, but every Catholic church I've been a member of does this.

So they'll lovingly accept them until the point of marriage, right? This was only ONE deciding factor for me to leave the church, by the way. And for the record I went to St. Albert the Great here in Austin. Our patron saint was a scientist... go figure.

 

[texas_ex2000]

So they'll lovingly accept them until the point of marriage, right? This was only ONE deciding factor for me to leave the church, by the way.

The parish and the Church will lovingly accept them no matter what. I may be overreaching here a little, but I'd venture to say that a gay couple with a civil marriage license would be treated just like any other parishioners. Maybe they wouldn't win a parish council election (just like a lot of parishioners with lifestyles counter to basic Christian teachings), but there's no reason why they couldn't be a fully participating members of the parish.

The Catholic sacrament of marriage, however, is not up to parishioners, the pastor, the bishop, the cardinals, or even the Pope to redefine.

I won't completely deny the existence of a higher being because this universe is full of oddities and wonderment, but I highly doubt it.

To me, observing the universe and given the laws of physics and statistical probability, the proposition that our reality is a result of a random walk is hillarious.

 

[TheWalkingHorn]

The parish and the Church will lovingly accept them no matter what. The Catholic sacrament of marriage, however, is not up to parishioners, the pastor, the bishop, the cardinals, or even the Pope to redefine.

Again... a valid reason for me leaving. It's not you, it's me.

To me, observing the universe and given the laws of physics and statistical probability, the proposition that our reality is a result of a random walk is hilarious.

If this is not all random then god is a sick, twisted individual.

 

[texas_ex2000]

If this is not all random then god is a sick, twisted individual.

This universe is weird and confusing, but here's one thing I know for sure. Our time on this rock is not about this existence or having a comfortable healthy life with a big investment account and a house on a par 5 fairway.

And the reason why is not because that's what God wanted - or more precisely, because God loves us, He gave us free will.

 

[TheWalkingHorn]

This universe is weird and confusing, but here's one thing I know for sure. Our time on this rock is not about this existence or having a comfortable healthy life with a big investment account and a house on a par 5 fairway.

And the reason why is not because that's what God wanted - or more precisely, because God loves us, He gave us free will.

Who said I was talking about anything that is free will?

 

[texas_ex2000]

Who said I was talking about anything that is free will?

I assumed when you said, "If this is not all random then god is a sick, twisted individual," you were implying that God is the reason why there is suffering in the world.

Free will, while beautiful and what makes us human, is also what makes us imperfect, weak, and hateful. That's the cause of suffering in the world.

Anyways, that's enough Sunday School for me...I just wanted to vent about the Pope.

 

[TheWalkingHorn]

I assumed when you said, "If this is not all random then god is a sick, twisted individual," you were implying that God is the reason why there is suffering in the world.

No... I highly doubt god's existence anymore. That was sarcasm. God is this creator of everything to Christians, this idea to calm our fears and regulate our behaviors, but the minute we question bad things in the world it has nothing to do with him, it has to do with us. So free will makes babies who are born with physical or mental abnormalities to parents who did everything right medically speaking? No.. it's just genetic mutations.

Listen, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on anything. I'm simply stating my beliefs, and why I left the church. If you find comfort and know in your heart that there is a god and that he loves you so... more power to ya. I have no ill qualms and I think no less of people if they are believers. I'm not a mouthy, judgmental atheist.

 

[texas_ex2000]

My last post on this.

So free will makes babies who are born with physical or mental abnormalities to parents who did everything right medically speaking?

Yes because human beings aren't perfect. Our bodies are walking hydrocarbon molecules that we stuff with a whole bunch of other disgusting crap. And walking/drinking/crapping hydrocarbon molecules don't do everything perfectly including reproducing. If human beings were perfect creatures, they would also always make the right decisions every single time. But if you were created perfectly and always made the right decisions, making bad decisions would be an impossibility and you would have no free will.

Additionally, sexual reproduction is inefficient, painful for the mother, and causes as you said genetic mutations. Why do we strive for genetic diversity through sex? If by nature we're just suppose to procreate and spread our genes, why wouldn't asexual reproduction be the dominant method of procreation in natural selection?

Much more importantly, see below:

This universe is weird and confusing, but here's one thing I know for sure. Our time on this rock is not about this existence or having a comfortable healthy life with a big investment account and a house on a par 5 fairway.

 

[Joe Fan]

Posted without comment
(if this is fake then sorry in advance)

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[Joe Fan]

Pope now lecturing the US on wealth redistribution
But isn't he the largest private landholder in Manhattan?
Perhaps around the world.
And he lives here

 

[UTChE96]

I really question his wisdom if he feels that his political capital is best spent on global warming and the evils of capitalism. Free market capitalism is responsible for alleviating more poverty than any other system in the history of mankind especially within the framework of a democratic and free society. He should be decrying the lack of free market capitalism in other countries rather than lecturing the US on the excesses of capitalism. He really comes across as quite naïve and foolish.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Pope now lecturing the US on wealth redistribution
But isn't he the largest private landholder in Manhattan?
Perhaps around the world.
And he lives here

In Pope Francis' defense, that's a holdover of centuries of previous Catholic leadership. Upon becoming Pope, he made a choice to take up residency in the Guest quarters rather than the Papal Residency. Like any corrupt multi-national corporation or government, it takes time to turn things around but by all appearances and data Pope Francis is walking the talk.

 

[LonghornCatholic]

And he lives here

Probably not going to satisfy you but he lives in a tiny apartment that makes Jester look the size of Count Dracula's castle.

 

[LonghornCatholic]

I think someone called the Pope ignorant, which stuff like that doesn't bother, but if you think the Catholic Church hasn't been a friend to science, that would be beyond ignorant.

Respectfully speaking, of course.

 

[Joe Fan]

He then went on to lecture the US about the death penalty.
I think there were 35 total executions in the US last year, combined.

And probably over 1M abortions

 

[Joe Fan]

He also lectured the US on --
-- admitting all immigrants (the US, of course, already takes in more "legal immigrants" than any country on earth. And, if you take all imms combined (legal+otherwise), then we lap the field)
-- Causing global warming (aka being more productive than an other)
-- Capitalism (what country has ever done more to lift the poor out of poverty? or to protect the lives and rights of non-citizens?)

Oh, and narcissism.
Heh.

 

[Mesohorny]

^ Looks like some of you are in good company....lol

 

[Joe Fan]

Probably not going to satisfy you but he lives in a tiny apartment that makes Jester look the size of Count Dracula's castle.

Avoidance can work. We see it every day.

But isn't the Catholic Church one of the richest entities on earth? It might be number one on any given day (depending on the current price of gold & non-taxable real estate). But since they will not allow a true accounting, no person (or almost no one) knows with any certainty just how wealthy the Church is. So, obviously, it's clear that it is those darn Americans' wealth that should be redistributed.*

This is always the thing about the pious, the socialists, the Marxists and the utopians -- isn't it? They always want to tell everyone else what to do, making exceptions for themselves. They want control over other humans, but will never allow themselves to be similarly controlled. Special rules for special people.

Modifying Thatcher: "The only problem with [the Pope's ideas] is that you will eventually run out of other people's money."


----------
*footnote: If you took Warren Buffet's total wealth and distributed it around the world to all humans, each would get less than $10. And this is without accounting for the usual Govt waste (of 20-40%) in the process.

 

[Crockett]

I'm kinda surprised a humble Pope speaking in alignment with Jesus' words in the New Testament, is catching so much flack for it. Then again, Jesus was beloved, but not by everybody. I know he's not sucking up to the billionaires, but hey, they can (and do) pay folks to get out their message and the airwaves are full of very prosperous people preaching prosperity gospel.