Trump Returns!

[nashhorn]

It's all dangerous, and it all needs to stop.

And that's it. But honestly, had Trump said that it would have created the same firestorm. Good grief it's actually reached that point wher no matter what one side says the other is going to go ballistic in a hyperbolic state of contradiction. No question Trump gives opportunity but come on, the raw animosity is palpable.
Anyway thanks for the brief Deez. Interesting read.

 

[OrngNugz]

Frankly I just getting tired of all that winning that Trump is doing, he is still winning right?

 

[Monahorns]

Mr. Deez is totally correct. I couldn't say it as clearly or succinctly. My main take away from Charlottesville is that there are bad guys fighting each other in the streets, Antifa and Alt-right. There isn't a good side in the violence. There are good people protesting the racists, but the minute you start beating someone else for speech, you turned into your enemy.

For example at the end of the Vice report, the man who walked up and punched John Kessler at the press conference after the protest/riot is un-American, even though he thinks he is a freedom fighter. It's straight up totalitarian oppression and I wish more people were against it. It is un-American to judge people based on race and it is un-American to attack someone for talking.

If it isn't, then we should band together and start beating up Imam's in the US that we can prove preach violent jihad. If you don't support that, you shouldn't support beating up racists holding press conferences as terrible as their speach is.

 

[Musburger1]

I know all my fans out here have been waiting with bated breath for me to issue a major statement on the Charlottesville mess (other than tossing a few jabs at the dunce who has decided to show up here in the last few days), but I've frankly been waiting to see how the facts shake out before rendering judgment. Well, I've waited long enough, and I'm ready to render judgment.

First, Trump's response was poor in the context of how he normally behaves. If he was slow to condemn in other contexts, then I'd defend him here. However, he's usually very quick to condemn and very quick to "name names." Keep in mind that he torched Obama and HRC for failing to condemn radical Islamic terror. He should have immediately condemned the entire alt-Right and without any equivocation or reservation just as he would condemn Islamic terrorists. They're very bad hombres.

Second, as usual the media is hysterical and presenting several blatantly fraudulent narratives. And of course, their double standards and hypocrisy are on full display, and there's no doubt that there was nothing Trump could have said or done to please them or score any points with them.

1. Many are claiming that Trump is condoning the alt-Right by pointing out that there was violence on both sides. That's garbage. Pointing that out doesn't excuse the violence of the alt-Right, and it doesn't make blame equally shared. It is possible and intellectually honest to say the alt-Right is terrible and acted worse (since they killed somebody) while still saying the the opposition was out of line as well.
2. I've heard some claim that Trump said that there are "good people" in the neo-Nazi movement. That is not at all what he said. He said that there were some good people at the demonstration who weren't neo-Nazis, and that's almost surely true. In fact, he also said there were good people on the other side who were nonviolent - also true.
3. There's a push to make anyone who supports the Confederate symbols into neo-Nazis, and that's BS. I've argued with Htown77 about removing Confederate symbols. He's very wrong, but he's not a neo-Nazi. Furthermore, I've argued this issue with probably a hundred other people who agree with him. Literally not one is a neo-Nazi or even remotely sympathetic to them.
4. There's a push to say that there's an inherent goodness to being opposed to white supremacists or Nazis. Has anybody ever heard of Josef Stalin? Sometimes two bad guys are fighting each other. Antifa is wrong and very evil both because of their methods and their ideology. The fact that they happen to oppose Nazism doesn't make them good or even less bad any more than the Nazi opposition to communism made them good or less bad. If either side - alt-Right or Antifa actually gained real political power in the United States, the results would be horrific and disastrous. They are indeed both terrible, and we should marginalize and de-legitimize both.

Third, the reluctance of some on the Right (including Trump) to disassociate from the alt-Right is troubling. There is a push to lump mainstream conservatism with the alt-Right, and that needs to be shutdown. That push comes from two sources - liberals who want to taint mainstream conservatism with the alt-Right and alt-Righters who want to appear to be a bigger and more important political movement than they actually are.

The push is enabled by the association of conservatism with the political Right. We need to combat that. The Left-Right spectrum is a product of European politics and doesn't fit American politics, because it doesn't leave a place for limited government and federalism, which is what mainstream conservatism is supposed to be about. Instead, it leaves different brands of authoritarianism on both sides. (By the way, that's for good reason. European states by and large aren't founded on principles of limited government.) The alt-Right fits nicely into the European Left-Right spectrum, as does the American Left. However, American conservatism does not, and we should stop pretending that it does. Accordingly, the difference between a mainstream conservative and an alt-Righter isn't a matter of degree but of fundamental principles and philosophy.

Fourth, just because most people the Left calls racists aren't doesn't mean that none of them are. The alt-Right people are true racists. Listen to a guy like Richard Spencer talk. He believes that European ethnicity is inseparable from and essential to Western civilization. To him, someone from the Far East or Africa can't be a legitimate Westerner no matter what he does - even if he embraces free markets and private property rights, practices Judeo-Christian ethics, believes in liberal democracy, etc. Well, that is racism, and it is dangerous, and we should be willing to label it as such without hesitation.

Fifth, I've heard several self-serving liberal commentators dismiss the claim that Leftist identity politics promote white nationalism, and these people are dangerously wrong. It absolutely does. You can't promote some forms of ethnic nationalism and separatism without promoting all forms. Why? Because eventually the group whose nationalism you want to suppress will figure out what the hell your doing and engage in nationalism as a matter of self-defense and self-preservation. And no, it's not ignorant paranoia on their part. It's human nature.

Finally, if you are a person who fears the rise of neo-Nazism, then you should oppose recreating the conditions that made normal people receptive to old Nazism. Normal people want order so they can live their lives in peace. One of Hitler's biggest selling points was that he was going to restore order by stopping the communist revolutionaries in Germany who were committing acts of violence, destroying property, and assaulting people like thugs. In other words, they were acting like Antifa but on a bigger scale. Right now you have President Trump, but if these violent nut groups amp it up further, then in ten years, you might have President Richard Spencer, who would make Trump look like Nelson Mandela. And again, this doesn't excuse or mitigate the alt-Right. Their violent acts do the same sort of thing in reverse. It's all dangerous, and it all needs to stop.

Nice post. Let me ask you to speculate. How much of what we are seeing with respect to the alt left/right clashes is driven by:
A) organic spontaneity
B) media agenda
C) extremists
D) polical parties
E) deep state agenda
F) frustration with economy
In other words, who is mostly responsible?

Personally, I think all of the above factors are present, but believe deep state operatives wanting to control government share the greatest responsibility.

 

[djimaplon]

I've heard some claim that Trump said that there are "good people" in the neo-Nazi movement. That is not at all what he said. He said that there were some good people at the demonstration who weren't neo-Nazis, and that's almost surely true. In fact, he also said there were good people on the other side who were nonviolent - also true.

For a narcissist, this is the underlying genius of his imprecision and in-articulation with him being the prime actor at the center. In a hyperpolarized environment, his generalizations allow for people to make conclusions that either easily or align with or categorically contrast with their own beliefs. When at its core, he really was just making a generalized observation (paraphrased: there was some good people and some bad people there) about a group of people.

 

[Mr. Deez]

And that's it. But honestly, had Trump said that it would have created the same firestorm. Good grief it's actually reached that point wher no matter what one side says the other is going to go ballistic in a hyperbolic state of contradiction. No question Trump gives opportunity but come on, the raw animosity is palpable.
Anyway thanks for the brief Deez. Interesting read.

You're absolutely correct. There was only one thing Trump could have said that would have spared him the firestorm. He would have had to have said, "I'm here to announce my renunciation of all policy goals of the Republican Party and my embracing of all policy goals of the Democratic Party." That would have spared him the flack, and if he had said that, it wouldn't have mattered what he said about Charlottesville. It would have been spun positively.

 

[OUBubba]

I know all my fans out here have been waiting with bated breath for me to issue a major statement on the Charlottesville mess (other than tossing a few jabs at the dunce who has decided to show up here in the last few days), but I've frankly been waiting to see how the facts shake out before rendering judgment. Well, I've waited long enough, and I'm ready to render judgment.

First, Trump's response was poor in the context of how he normally behaves. If he was slow to condemn in other contexts, then I'd defend him here. However, he's usually very quick to condemn and very quick to "name names." Keep in mind that he torched Obama and HRC for failing to condemn radical Islamic terror. He should have immediately condemned the entire alt-Right and without any equivocation or reservation just as he would condemn Islamic terrorists. They're very bad hombres.

Second, as usual the media is hysterical and presenting several blatantly fraudulent narratives. And of course, their double standards and hypocrisy are on full display, and there's no doubt that there was nothing Trump could have said or done to please them or score any points with them.

1. Many are claiming that Trump is condoning the alt-Right by pointing out that there was violence on both sides. That's garbage. Pointing that out doesn't excuse the violence of the alt-Right, and it doesn't make blame equally shared. It is possible and intellectually honest to say the alt-Right is terrible and acted worse (since they killed somebody) while still saying the the opposition was out of line as well.
2. I've heard some claim that Trump said that there are "good people" in the neo-Nazi movement. That is not at all what he said. He said that there were some good people at the demonstration who weren't neo-Nazis, and that's almost surely true. In fact, he also said there were good people on the other side who were nonviolent - also true.
3. There's a push to make anyone who supports the Confederate symbols into neo-Nazis, and that's BS. I've argued with Htown77 about removing Confederate symbols. He's very wrong, but he's not a neo-Nazi. Furthermore, I've argued this issue with probably a hundred other people who agree with him. Literally not one is a neo-Nazi or even remotely sympathetic to them.
4. There's a push to say that there's an inherent goodness to being opposed to white supremacists or Nazis. Has anybody ever heard of Josef Stalin? Sometimes two bad guys are fighting each other. Antifa is wrong and very evil both because of their methods and their ideology. The fact that they happen to oppose Nazism doesn't make them good or even less bad any more than the Nazi opposition to communism made them good or less bad. If either side - alt-Right or Antifa actually gained real political power in the United States, the results would be horrific and disastrous. They are indeed both terrible, and we should marginalize and de-legitimize both.

Third, the reluctance of some on the Right (including Trump) to disassociate from the alt-Right is troubling. There is a push to lump mainstream conservatism with the alt-Right, and that needs to be shutdown. That push comes from two sources - liberals who want to taint mainstream conservatism with the alt-Right and alt-Righters who want to appear to be a bigger and more important political movement than they actually are.

The push is enabled by the association of conservatism with the political Right. We need to combat that. The Left-Right spectrum is a product of European politics and doesn't fit American politics, because it doesn't leave a place for limited government and federalism, which is what mainstream conservatism is supposed to be about. Instead, it leaves different brands of authoritarianism on both sides. (By the way, that's for good reason. European states by and large aren't founded on principles of limited government.) The alt-Right fits nicely into the European Left-Right spectrum, as does the American Left. However, American conservatism does not, and we should stop pretending that it does. Accordingly, the difference between a mainstream conservative and an alt-Righter isn't a matter of degree but of fundamental principles and philosophy.

Fourth, just because most people the Left calls racists aren't doesn't mean that none of them are. The alt-Right people are true racists. Listen to a guy like Richard Spencer talk. He believes that European ethnicity is inseparable from and essential to Western civilization. To him, someone from the Far East or Africa can't be a legitimate Westerner no matter what he does - even if he embraces free markets and private property rights, practices Judeo-Christian ethics, believes in liberal democracy, etc. Well, that is racism, and it is dangerous, and we should be willing to label it as such without hesitation.

Fifth, I've heard several self-serving liberal commentators dismiss the claim that Leftist identity politics promote white nationalism, and these people are dangerously wrong. It absolutely does. You can't promote some forms of ethnic nationalism and separatism without promoting all forms. Why? Because eventually the group whose nationalism you want to suppress will figure out what the hell your doing and engage in nationalism as a matter of self-defense and self-preservation. And no, it's not ignorant paranoia on their part. It's human nature.

Finally, if you are a person who fears the rise of neo-Nazism, then you should oppose recreating the conditions that made normal people receptive to old Nazism. Normal people want order so they can live their lives in peace. One of Hitler's biggest selling points was that he was going to restore order by stopping the communist revolutionaries in Germany who were committing acts of violence, destroying property, and assaulting people like thugs. In other words, they were acting like Antifa but on a bigger scale. Right now you have President Trump, but if these violent nut groups amp it up further, then in ten years, you might have President Richard Spencer, who would make Trump look like Nelson Mandela. And again, this doesn't excuse or mitigate the alt-Right. Their violent acts do the same sort of thing in reverse. It's all dangerous, and it all needs to stop.

Good points. However, any "good people" should have folded up their confederate flag, put in the back of their Ford truck and driven off once the KKK and the nazi flags came out.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Good points. However, any "good people" should have folded up their confederate flag, put in the back of their Ford truck and driven off once the KKK and the nazi flags came out.

Barry, I completely agree, and there is one thing I need to add. I'm sure that there were good people at this event. However, this event wasn't organized by good people. Richard Spencer and David Duke were invited speakers. Good people don't invite guys like that to speak.

Furthermore, by inviting those guys and helping provoke this whole fiasco, the organizers did terrible political damage to their cause - at least the cause of keeping Confederate memorials in place on public lands.

 

[Htown77]

Thank you Deez. I disagree with the part about me being wrong, obviously, but as usual, you wrote a nice, eloquent post with a lot of the same points I was planning on making. I started to write a quick reponse yesterday to @Seattle Husker, but decided i would need some time write the post to make sure my thoughts are conveyed accurately. I am still planning on making some follow up points, but I am fairly busy and it may not be until next week.

Good points. However, any "good people" should have folded up their confederate flag, put in the back of their Ford truck and driven off once the KKK and the nazi flagscame out.

We actually agree for once. I said this earlier when I said the good people were the ones that did not show up to Charlottesville to stand with the neo nazis or to physically fight them. If good people did show up, they should have seen the huge nazi rally and left. That rally was not about the statues (as I said earlier, Robert E. Lee is the opposite of a Nazi), it was a hate rally. Anyone who actually cared about the statues should have steered clear. In fairness, the Sons of Confederate Veterans (the monument organization that Harry Truman and Omar Bradly were members of) have rejected rallies with hate groups.

http://m.mysanantonio.com/news/loca...tests-on-Travis-Park-Confederate-11750359.php

Confederate, Texas and American flags will be welcomed at the protest, but members of the Ku Klux Klan and Skin Heads will not be, according to the event page.

^ That is the proper way to defend statues and is the route the SCV has been taking, including at protests over the south carolina capitol confederate flag, where hate groups are not welcome.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Thank you Deez. I disagree with the part about me being wrong,

Damn, I just assumed that was the part you'd most agree with. lol

 

[OUBubba]

Barry, I completely agree, and there is one thing I need to add. I'm sure that there were good people at this event. However, this event wasn't organized by good people. Richard Spencer and David Duke were invited speakers. Good people don't invite guys like that to speak.

Furthermore, by inviting those guys and helping provoke this whole fiasco, the organizers did terrible political damage to their cause - at least the cause of keeping Confederate memorials in place on public lands.

I compared it on a friend's facebook post kind of like a bunch of guys standing around a fire drinking beer and telling stories. If someone whips it out it gets weird.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I compared it on a friend's facebook post kind of like a bunch of guys standing around a fire drinking beer and telling stories. If someone whips it out it gets weird.

Excellent comparison! Lol!

 

[Mr. Deez]

I compared it on a friend's facebook post kind of like a bunch of guys standing around a fire drinking beer and telling stories. If someone whips it out it gets weird.

One thing I forgot to ask, when you've been in this situation, was it weird because a friend whipped it out and you had to see it? Or was it weird because you whipped it out and nobody reciprocated?

 

[OUBubba]

One thing I forgot to ask, when you've been in this situation, was it weird because a friend whipped it out and you had to see it? Or was it weird because you whipped it out and nobody reciprocated?

Actually, it was the river, we were incapacitated, it was the middle of the afternoon and the guy whipping it out was a celebrity (then and now) and we all felt instantly less manly...laughably so.

 

[Brad Austin]

I know all my fans out here have been waiting with bated breath for me to issue a major statement on the Charlottesville mess

Your lengthy analysis launched it out of the park from start to finish. Well done.

 

[Phil Elliott]

Right now you have President Trump, but if these violent nut groups amp it up further, then in ten years, you might have President Richard Spencer, who would make Trump look like Nelson Mandela.

Glenn Reynolds is fond of saying, "If these people succeed in removing Trump from office, they *really* won't like who comes after him."