Trump Returns!

[Musburger1]

i only caught a few minutes of the afternoon press conference but what I saw was well worth viewing. The disgusting press corps, basically a bunch of fat rats with about as much perception of reality as our own poor oppressed board celebrity, made fools of themselves in a vein attempt to portray Trump as a grand dragoon. Trump angrily called them out on their partisan nonsense and at least for one day, displayed the gonads that won him an election.

I'm still baffled by many of Trump's selections. I question his know.owledge on many issues and I question his judgement concerning the people he's chosen to work with. But this afternoon, I'd say he revealed the MSM for what it is; a spineless group of or partisan lying jackals not fit to use a keyboard or talk into a microphone.

 

[Musburger1]

Here's the press conference.

 

[djimaplon]

 

[OUBubba]

It's like he has $ on the under.

 

[iatrogenic]

That would hold some truth if the alt left weren't fascists themselves. Other than Kent State, I don't remember the U.S. military shutting down free speech on college campuses, bashing in plate glass windows at businesses, or rioting without knowing why they were rioting.

 

[Htown77]

That would hold some truth if the alt left weren't fascists themselves

I will add that would hold some truth if there was a war going on and americans actually needed to kill people to prevent themselves from being killed. While the neo-nazis believe they are taking part in a "race war" and the antifas believe they are taking part in a war, both sides are violent delusionial thugs whose war only exists in their own imaginations. They are simply law breaking criminals if they cannot protest peacefully and instead resort to violence which both sides did in Charlottesville. The police should have arrested all the violent troublemakers on both sides instead of failing in their duty to protect law and order by letting the violence escalate until one of the hateful violent thugs killed someone.

(I will also throw in an obligatory the City of Charlottesville could have left a nearly 100 year old statue alone that has not caused anyone any harm since it was erected in 1924 and instead focussed on real problems rather than create new ones and division.)

 

[Musburger1]

I'm at work today. I would estimate 90% of the people here either blame Trump for Charlottesville or they interpret Trump's comments as fomenting racism. I just don't get it. Next thing I expect Rattfatt and thousands of his ilk will surround the Washington monument and chant "Tear it Down." When Trump speaks out against this it will solidify public opinion that he is racist.

 

[Htown77]

^ I am an anti-Trump guy, but nothing he said was unreasonable and the left and some on the right have been totally unreasonable. Their hatred of Trump has caused them to act irrationally. Rubio, who is on the right, came out yesterday and said violence against other americans is justified. I was like "violence is justified? What happened to the Constitution?"

One reason I have always been pro ACLU is they do believe in the first amendment. https://acluva.org/20108/aclu-of-vi...-responsible-for-violence-in-charlottesville/
^ This is a good read about how violence at political protests is unacceptable whether it comes from neo nazi garbage or those counter protesting the neo nazis.

Trump calling out everyone that decided to employ violence is a lot more reasonable than anyone on any side trying to justify violence.

 

[BrntOrngStmpeDe]

True, nothing was unreasonable but the problem with DT as POTUS is that he doesn't have any friends. No one is in his corner anymore because he has alienated just about everyone. He has routinely pissed off one after the other of his colleagues and the people that work for him. He has shown zero loyalty to the people that work for him and the people that are theoretically rowing in the same direction.

Whatever you think about his policies, he has shown that he is not adept political leader. His narcissistic personality that requires that everyone acknowledge him as the winner all the time worked well as a campaigner, but not so well as the actual guy in charge of a bunch of people that he can't fire and he must convince and cajole rather than command. He just doesn't seem capable of switching gears.

 

[Seattle Husker]

The moral equivocation in this thread but more importantly by our POTUS is dangerous. Htown77, I'd argue your desire to keep the vestiges of the Southern symbols of rebellion is emboldening these people. The actions the "Unite the Right" group demonstrate that this symbols of Southern rebellion have been coopted by the alt-right. They no longer belong to all the South. In turn, I'd expect the removal of these statues to accelerate.



This is no defense of "antifa" as I'd agree that all violent protesters should be arrested. With that said I'll quote Mitt Romney:

 

[OUBubba]

The moral equivocation in this thread but more importantly by our POTUS is dangerous. Htown77, I'd argue your desire to keep the vestiges of the Southern symbols of rebellion is emboldening these people. The actions the "Unite the Right" group demonstrate that this symbols of Southern rebellion have been coopted by the alt-right. They no longer belong to all the South. In turn, I'd expect the removal of these statues to accelerate.



This is no defense of "antifa" as I'd agree that all violent protesters should be arrested. With that said I'll quote Mitt Romney:

I watched that last night. While I admit that I can have some shaded lenses on here is my takeaway.

1. Neo Nazis came from all over (Oregon, Canada, Nevada, etc.).
2. Most of the "anti" protesters were local college kids and some "libs" like Cornell West and that group.
3. How can anyone co-opt Nazis and try to merge it into the US?
4. I saw a lot of well armed protesters on the right that were there and responsible.
5. Had the idiot in the car not become a murderer, you could at least argue the "many sides" argument.
6. It will be interesting to see what happens once the videos are reviewed and assault charges start to get filed - in both directions.
7. It's a chicken/egg thing. If the Unite the Right group is going to show up, so are protesters. Both have weapons to "defend themselves".
8. I expect if I walked down 6th street in Austin singing "Poor Texas...." and doing the horns down, I'd take an *** woopin' even if I was being "non-violent".

 

[Phil Elliott]

If they must affix blame to one side or the other, I would peg it on the guys that did NOT have a permit to be there in protest. If the cops would have just said, "No permit? You guys have to leave now." then this never would have happened. It seems that is not what the mayor and the governor wanted, tho.

 

[Seattle Husker]

If they must affix blame to one side or the other, I would peg it on the guys that did NOT have a permit to be there in protest. If the cops would have just said, "No permit? You guys have to leave now." then this never would have happened. It seems that is not what the mayor and the governor wanted, tho.

The moral equivocation continues...

 

[Musburger1]

The moral equivocation continues...

There is "statutory crime" and there is "thought crime." Clearly America has issued its verdict. The latter will not be tolerated whereas the former may be excused if the transgression is directed toward the latter. So yes, there is no moral equivalence.

 

[Seattle Husker]

There is "statutory crime" and there is "thought crime." Clearly America has issued its verdict. The latter will not be tolerated whereas the former may be excused if the transgression is directed toward the latter. So yes, there is no moral equivalence.

Here's the thing, nobody is saying anyone that committed a violent act shouldn't be prosecuted. If you watch the Vice video you can see that those normal looking people that chose to assault the Unite the Right organizer at his PC were in handcuffs. That's how it should be.

To even raise that as a topic distracts from the motivations of the groups. That's the spotlight that DJT and others are trying to shut off because it's an abhorrent comparison. On one side you have a group preaching hate, the other anti-hate. Only one side has the acceptable moral high ground there.

 

[Musburger1]

Here's the thing, nobody is saying anyone that committed a violent act shouldn't be prosecuted. If you watch the Vice video you can see that those normal looking people that chose to assault the Unite the Right organizer at his PC were in handcuffs. That's how it should be.

To even raise that as a topic distracts from the motivations of the groups. That's the spotlight that DJT and others are trying to shut off because it's an abhorrent comparison. On one side you have a group preaching hate, the other anti-hate. Only one side has the acceptable moral high ground there.

Assaulting people or supporting assault is anti-hate? In what universe?

 

[Seattle Husker]

Assaulting people or supporting assault is anti-hate? In what universe?

Please point me to anyone "supporting assault". This is me blowing that strawman over.

 

[OUBubba]

To even raise that as a topic distracts from the motivations of the groups.

Assaulting people or supporting assault is anti-hate? In what universe?

And yet, he persisted.

 

[Musburger1]

Please point me to anyone "supporting assault". This is me blowing that strawman over.

Trump is being vilified for allegedly not condemning racism or not condemning it quickly enough. As such, he is accused of abetting it.

Nobody, not the media, not the politicians - nobody - has made a big deal to condemn the antifa and BLM disrupters who instigated the violence. Using the same standard used on Trump, all of them condone violence against those with views they find repugnant.

 

[Htown77]

Htown77, I'd argue your desire to keep the vestiges of the Southern symbolsof rebellion is emboldening thesepeople.

Harry Truman and Omar Bradley were members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, the organization that put up a lot of these monuments. Did Harry Truman or Omar Bradley "embolden nazis?" F*** nazis. The South took libertarianism too far and were wrong with slavery and their other feudal system like practices, but they represented states rights and limited government which is the opposite national socialism. Sorry, but the Nazis cannot have or claim any 19th century americans, much less southerners. You and anyone else that wants to give them that are wrong for doing so. Waiving a confederate flag and a nazi flag is an oxymoron, emphasis on moron. Many of those same nazi pricks waived the star spangled banner, which is an even bigger oxymoron. You want to give them that to? F*** that. No one's american heritage belongs to nazis. The people that built those statues were many of the same that defeated the real nazis including President Truman and Omar Bradley. What you and the anti-statue people should do is stop playing into what the nazis want and stop grouping patriotic anti-nazi americans in with them which only creates the divisiveness that they seek.

I expect if I walked down 6th street in Austin singing "Poor Texas...." and doing the horns down, I'd take an *** woopin' even if I was being "non-violent".

You should expect it and I agree. You would be partially to blame, but you being partially to blame does not change the fact that it was wrong of anyone to assault or the fact they should be arrested for breaking the law. Anyone that showed up to Charlottesville looking for trouble ON BOTH SIDES and used violence are not victims and both share blame.

Only one side has the acceptable moral high ground there.

No one that uses violence against anyone's first amendment rights of peaceful protest has the moral high ground. The people that peaceful reject national socialism everyday (this entire board for example) and did not go to Charlottesville trying to start trouble or violence have the moral high ground. I am more than happy to start quoting Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s sermon on loving ones enemies and how violence against one another is not the answer in this democratic and free country of ours.

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

No one that uses violence against anyone's first amendment rights of peaceful protest has the moral high ground. The people that peaceful reject national socialism everyday (this entire board for example) and did not go to Charlottesville trying to start trouble or violence have the moral high ground.

Thank you. That is extremely well said.

 

[Seattle Husker]

You and anyone else that wants to give them that are wrong for doing so. Waiving a confederate flag and a nazi flag is an oxymoron, emphasis on moron. Many of those same nazi pricks waived the star spangled banner, which is an even bigger oxymoron. You want to give them that to? F*** that.

Like moderate muslims that need to continue to do more to stand up to muslim extremists, it's not me that is "giv(ing) it to them" but rather those like you that stand by and let them coopt the symbols and choose to chastize those standing up to them.

The ignore them and they'll go away mantra is absurd. The alt-right didn't grow because liberals started pointing it out. It grew in the shadows and reached mainstream before liberals recognized it existed. Breitbart and it's ilk thrust it into the mainstream by giving it a voice. Now the alt-right have a POTUS preaching moral equivalence which is further emboldening it. Look not further than the direct quotes from David Duke and nazi sites claiming Trump supports and defends them.

Turning a blind eye to the white supremacist movement will only let it be codified in mainstream conservative ideology.

 

[Seattle Husker]

If they must affix blame to one side or the other, I would peg it on the guys that did NOT have a permit to be there in protest. If the cops would have just said, "No permit? You guys have to leave now." then this never would have happened. It seems that is not what the mayor and the governor wanted, tho.

 

[4th_floor]

.......... The South took libertarianism too far and were wrong with slavery and their other feudal system like practices, but they represented states rights and limited government which is the opposite national socialism....

Clearly, you do not understand anything about libertarianism.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Clearly, you do not understand anything about libertarianism.

libertarianism is the right to own slaves?

Surely Htown77 wasn't inferring that but rather picking certain aspect of the libertarian platform, most notably states vs. fed rights. Still, it's slightly ironic to invoke libertarian ideology knowing that slavery was a primary issue in the fight to maintain Southern sovereignty.

 

[I35]

True, nothing was unreasonable but the problem with DT as POTUS is that he doesn't have any friends

He doesn't have any friends because he stand up against them. We've all been complaining for years that our politicians are in the good ole boys club. The swamp is completely full and as Americans we were all sick of it. Now we have someone to take names and kick some a$$ and we don't like how he does it or conducts himself. I can deal with that. It's the politicians that take advantage of us and get rich in the process that I'm sick of.

No one is in his corner anymore because he has alienated just about everyone

DT is a counter puncher. He always has been. So once the first punch is thrown he responds and just doesn't stop.

He has routinely pissed off one after the other of his colleagues and the people that work for him.

Again, because he won't fall in line with the establishment. He's not paid for and owes nobody anything. He went from the cozy life as a billionaire to the zoo in Washington to try to fix it. I truly believe he loves this country and has made a bigger sacrifice than any other modern day president. He'd have to love his country to deal with the corrupt MSM that everyday is bashing him. Oh one other thing off topic. Does his low rating really ring true? 1) after the last elections I don't trust any polls. Polling can and is so flawed these days. 2) Even if accurate polling is conducted, do you really believe with the daily bashing every second of the day of our President by the MSM media would show good polling numbers? What if the MSM just reported facts only and results of his policies? He would rate very high and it would only be the hard core libs that would not approve of him.

He has shown zero loyalty to the people that work for him and the people that are theoretically rowing in the same direction.

Which is just the opposite of BHO. BHO chose his loyalty for his friends over the American people. Results being they got away with everything included corruption at the highest levels. No consequences for any of their actions. Eric Holder should have been given the boot directly after fast and furious was exposed.

The actions the "Unite the Right" group demonstrate that this symbols of Southern rebellion have been coopted by the alt-right.

There are really only a few alt-right and alt-left. The difference in the two are the Republican party stands against the alt-right and the Democrats stand with the alt-left. Want proof? Look no further than the recent event last weekend when the Republicans from top to bottom took a stance against both alt-right-and alt-left where as the liberals took a stance only against the alt-right and then tried to shame our President and the rest of the right for blaming both. There is no question the alt-left without a permit were the starters of the aggression. I really don't even believe the KKK and those kind of groups are the alt-right. They are so isolated that nobody cares about them until they go against the darlings of the left.

If you watch the Vice video you can see that those normal looking people that chose to assault the Unite the Right organizer at his PC were in handcuffs. That's how it should be.

I watched it and even though it's a left leaning program (HBO) I thought for the most part they were just actually showing what the KKK is about and how they think. They are disgusting just like the Black Panthers are. The right has nothing to do with them. I sure wish the left would do the same to BLM and the Black Panthers.

 

[Seattle Husker]

He doesn't have any friends because he stand up against them. We've all been complaining for years that our politicians are in the good ole boys club. The swamp is completely full and as Americans we were all sick of it. Now we have someone to take names and kick some a$$ and we don't like how he does it or conducts himself. I can deal with that. It's the politicians that take advantage of us and get rich in the process that I'm sick of.

He doesn't have any friends because he's an ******* with no defining ideology. Trump is not left or right...his platform is simply I'm different and if you don't like that f*ck off. Clearly some are enamored by ******** but when it comes to POTUS effectiveness you have to navigate 3 branches of government. If one thing is crystal clear in the first 8 months, a rich land developers' experience does not translate well to effective governing, at least this individual.

He's not paid for and owes nobody anything. He went from the cozy life as a billionaire to the zoo in Washington to try to fix it. I truly believe he loves this country and has made a bigger sacrifice than any other modern day president. He'd have to love his country to deal with the corrupt MSM that everyday is bashing him.

Owes nobody anything? Put out your taxes like every POTUS candidate since '68 and let us verify. You think he took this role because he "loves this country"? I'd argue he took to role to feed his own narcissism. He'll also handsomely profit on this venture too. Nobody believes he was worth $10B before becoming POTUS but he will be afterwords.

Oh one other thing off topic. Does his low rating really ring true? 1) after the last elections I don't trust any polls. Polling can and is so flawed these days. 2) Even if accurate polling is conducted, do you really believe with the daily bashing every second of the day of our President by the MSM media would show good polling numbers? What if the MSM just reported facts only and results of his policies? He would rate very high and it would only be the hard core libs that would not approve of him.

This passage isn't supported by any facts. The polls were off by a few percentage points (within the margin of error in most cases) by election night. DJT won by 80k votes yet still lost the popular vote. He won by a razor thin margin. Now the claim is that polls are off by 7-10+%? That's a big leap.

There are really only a few alt-right and alt-left. The difference in the two are the Republican party stands against the alt-right and the Democrats stand with the alt-left.

All Republicans but the man you are lauding in this post. Let's be sure to detail what liberals support, the ideals of standing up to racism and bigotry, not violence. Nobody of consequence has stated any support for violence. Standing there and shouting down crowds screaming "go home fags" and "blood and soil", heck ya.

[I watched it and even though it's a left leaning program (HBO) I thought for the most part they were just actually showing what the KKK is about and how they think. They are disgusting just like the Black Panthers are. The right has nothing to do with them. I sure wish the left would do the same to BLM and the Black Panthers.

The difference between the alt-right screaming "White Lives Matter" and the BLM screaming "Black Lives Matter" is that the latter is saying we are equals and should be valued as such while the former is saying no you aren't. One is fighting form themselves and the other is fighting against others.

 

[Musburger1]

I found it interesting that all the multi-millionaire and billionaire cabal or now publically displaying their disgust at Trump's racism. We've got Jamie Dimon, Larry Summers, several powerful corporate CEOs all on record as denouncing Trump's statements. These are some of the most hypocritical scoundrels the world has to offer. These people would throw their own mother under the bus if it meant another dollar to them.

 

[Seattle Husker]

I found it interesting that all the multi-millionaire and billionaire cabal or now publically displaying their disgust at Trump's racism. We've got Jamie Dimon, Larry Summers, several powerful corporate CEOs all on record as denouncing Trump's statements. These are some of the most hypocritical scoundrels the world has to offer. These people would throw their own mother under the bus if it meant another dollar to them.

Some of those CEO's are stepping away from Trump based on their values. I believe Kevin Frazier from Merck, a Black CEO, would fall into this camp. On the flipside, there are certainly others that will distance themselves simply to ensure they are not on the side of the white supremacists. That could be a business decision (liberals are really good at voting with their dollars) or it could be their interested in their own perception.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I know all my fans out here have been waiting with bated breath for me to issue a major statement on the Charlottesville mess (other than tossing a few jabs at the dunce who has decided to show up here in the last few days), but I've frankly been waiting to see how the facts shake out before rendering judgment. Well, I've waited long enough, and I'm ready to render judgment.

First, Trump's response was poor in the context of how he normally behaves. If he was slow to condemn in other contexts, then I'd defend him here. However, he's usually very quick to condemn and very quick to "name names." Keep in mind that he torched Obama and HRC for failing to condemn radical Islamic terror. He should have immediately condemned the entire alt-Right and without any equivocation or reservation just as he would condemn Islamic terrorists. They're very bad hombres.

Second, as usual the media is hysterical and presenting several blatantly fraudulent narratives. And of course, their double standards and hypocrisy are on full display, and there's no doubt that there was nothing Trump could have said or done to please them or score any points with them.

1. Many are claiming that Trump is condoning the alt-Right by pointing out that there was violence on both sides. That's garbage. Pointing that out doesn't excuse the violence of the alt-Right, and it doesn't make blame equally shared. It is possible and intellectually honest to say the alt-Right is terrible and acted worse (since they killed somebody) while still saying the the opposition was out of line as well.
2. I've heard some claim that Trump said that there are "good people" in the neo-Nazi movement. That is not at all what he said. He said that there were some good people at the demonstration who weren't neo-Nazis, and that's almost surely true. In fact, he also said there were good people on the other side who were nonviolent - also true.
3. There's a push to make anyone who supports the Confederate symbols into neo-Nazis, and that's BS. I've argued with Htown77 about removing Confederate symbols. He's very wrong, but he's not a neo-Nazi. Furthermore, I've argued this issue with probably a hundred other people who agree with him. Literally not one is a neo-Nazi or even remotely sympathetic to them.
4. There's a push to say that there's an inherent goodness to being opposed to white supremacists or Nazis. Has anybody ever heard of Josef Stalin? Sometimes two bad guys are fighting each other. Antifa is wrong and very evil both because of their methods and their ideology. The fact that they happen to oppose Nazism doesn't make them good or even less bad any more than the Nazi opposition to communism made them good or less bad. If either side - alt-Right or Antifa actually gained real political power in the United States, the results would be horrific and disastrous. They are indeed both terrible, and we should marginalize and de-legitimize both.

Third, the reluctance of some on the Right (including Trump) to disassociate from the alt-Right is troubling. There is a push to lump mainstream conservatism with the alt-Right, and that needs to be shutdown. That push comes from two sources - liberals who want to taint mainstream conservatism with the alt-Right and alt-Righters who want to appear to be a bigger and more important political movement than they actually are.

The push is enabled by the association of conservatism with the political Right. We need to combat that. The Left-Right spectrum is a product of European politics and doesn't fit American politics, because it doesn't leave a place for limited government and federalism, which is what mainstream conservatism is supposed to be about. Instead, it leaves different brands of authoritarianism on both sides. (By the way, that's for good reason. European states by and large aren't founded on principles of limited government.) The alt-Right fits nicely into the European Left-Right spectrum, as does the American Left. However, American conservatism does not, and we should stop pretending that it does. Accordingly, the difference between a mainstream conservative and an alt-Righter isn't a matter of degree but of fundamental principles and philosophy.

Fourth, just because most people the Left calls racists aren't doesn't mean that none of them are. The alt-Right people are true racists. Listen to a guy like Richard Spencer talk. He believes that European ethnicity is inseparable from and essential to Western civilization. To him, someone from the Far East or Africa can't be a legitimate Westerner no matter what he does - even if he embraces free markets and private property rights, practices Judeo-Christian ethics, believes in liberal democracy, etc. Well, that is racism, and it is dangerous, and we should be willing to label it as such without hesitation.

Fifth, I've heard several self-serving liberal commentators dismiss the claim that Leftist identity politics promote white nationalism, and these people are dangerously wrong. It absolutely does. You can't promote some forms of ethnic nationalism and separatism without promoting all forms. Why? Because eventually the group whose nationalism you want to suppress will figure out what the hell your doing and engage in nationalism as a matter of self-defense and self-preservation. And no, it's not ignorant paranoia on their part. It's human nature.

Finally, if you are a person who fears the rise of neo-Nazism, then you should oppose recreating the conditions that made normal people receptive to old Nazism. Normal people want order so they can live their lives in peace. One of Hitler's biggest selling points was that he was going to restore order by stopping the communist revolutionaries in Germany who were committing acts of violence, destroying property, and assaulting people like thugs. In other words, they were acting like Antifa but on a bigger scale. Right now you have President Trump, but if these violent nut groups amp it up further, then in ten years, you might have President Richard Spencer, who would make Trump look like Nelson Mandela. And again, this doesn't excuse or mitigate the alt-Right. Their violent acts do the same sort of thing in reverse. It's all dangerous, and it all needs to stop.