Tom Brady the GOAT?

BevoJoe said:
After Brady with 6 wins and 6 rings are:

Joe Montana, 4 rings
Terry Bradshaw, 4 rings
Troy Aikman, 3 rings
Eli and Payton Manning each have 2 rings
Several guys also have 2 rings

As far as how many SB those and others played in whether they won or lost, I don't have that info yet.
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Those are some real good teams those top three played for.
Dont think the surrounding cast relative to opponents of the day for either TB nor KC comes close....
And don't see any of the teams Brady helped to the SBs in Boston stacking up to that kind of talent, so add that to the argument.
 
In answer to the question, a lot of us don’t care for him because he played for a team that cheated every time the opportunity arose. And tried to lie its way out of it when caught.
Not to say he is not the best of his time.

though he lost twice to the NYG who were not nearly as good a team as the one he played on.

and I wonder how he would have looked if defensive backs were allowed to mug receivers as in Unitas days
 
huisache said:
In answer to the question, a lot of us don’t care for him because he played for a team that cheated every time the opportunity arose. And tried to lie its way out of it when caught.
Not to say he is not the best of his time.

though he lost twice to the NYG who were not nearly as good a team as the one he played on.

and I wonder how he would have looked if defensive backs were allowed to mug receivers as in Unitas days
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Funny you bring up Unitas days.....and it is no where close now....I agree w you.
But, it seems like the refs have really been letting them play down the stretch in these playoffs...few flags...and the two teams that reached the Super Bowl got the memo. Both of these teams just blanket/draped on receivers very effectively I've noticed. Will be a storyline to watch Sunday.
 
Montana, Elway, Aikman, Staubach, Bradshaw would have played longer with todays rules protecting the QB. Tom is still the clear GOAT but these other guys would have had some more SB appearances and titles. None of them would have had 10 but another 2 or 3 possibly. If I had to pick a QB in today's game I would probably pick Elway. He was the most talented and had the best arm.
 
I could do without all the cusswords.....but this is some funny stuff and another reason I'm OK w Brady...down to earth (considering he is Tom Brady) and a well documented good sense of humor.

 
Guys, please forgive me, but what does "Goat" mean when describing a quarterback? Is it an 'old guy'? Thank you for helping me figure this out, without being condescending. We rock.

A friend texted me. GRAT means "Greatest Of All Time." Any of you who knew this, and did not respond to my request, may now go back to your Top Ramen Noodles.
 
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I’ll be your Huckleberry...
G.O.A.T = Greatest Of All Time

This is not my endorsement of Brady; just ‘splaining the acronym. I’m rooting for Mahomes here.
 
I did not like him because I don't like Belicheat and the Patriots, but he has proved it was not about BB and the NEP machine. He is truly the GOAT IMO.
 
My Father in law (85 years ) say's Brady is not the GOAT because 1) He cheats (deflategate) and 2) He doesn't call his own plays like they did in the old days.

He likes Unitas and Bart Starr... he also mentioned Otto Graham:

"Graham is regarded by critics as one of the most dominant players of his era, having taken the Browns to league championship games every year between 1946 and 1955, winning seven of them. With Graham at quarterback, the Browns posted a record of 57 wins, 13 losses, and one tie, including a 9–3 win–loss record in the playoffs. While most of Graham's statistical records have been surpassed in the modern era, he still holds the NFL record for career average yards gained per pass attempt, with 8.63. He also holds the record for the highest career winning percentage for an NFL starting quarterback, at 0.810. Long-time New York Yankees owner George Steinbrenner, a friend of Graham's, once called him "as great of a quarterback as there ever was."[1]
 
It is interesting that, individually, he now has 1 more SB win than any other team. And, one of the teams with 6 is his old team that he won 6 with.
 
bystander said:
My Father in law (85 years ) say's Brady is not the GOAT because 1) He cheats (deflategate) and 2) He doesn't call his own plays like they did in the old days.

He likes Unitas and Bart Starr... he also mentioned Otto Graham:

"Graham is regarded by critics as one of the most dominant players of his era, having taken the Browns to league championship games every year between 1946 and 1955, winning seven of them. With Graham at quarterback, the Browns posted a record of 57 wins, 13 losses, and one tie, including a 9–3 win–loss record in the playoffs. While most of Graham's statistical records have been surpassed in the modern era, he still holds the NFL record for career average yards gained per pass attempt, with 8.63. He also holds the record for the highest career winning percentage for an NFL starting quarterback, at 0.810. Long-time New York Yankees owner George Steinbrenner, a friend of Graham's, once called him "as great of a quarterback as there ever was."[1]
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The only legit argument I’ve seen against Tom. I don’t watch enough NFL to know this off the top of my cranium, but Tom with 7 rings, numerous SB appearances, multiple league MVPs, multiple SB MVPs, and SB victories with with two different teams...... I gotta go with Tom still.
 
LonghornCatholic said:
The only legit argument I’ve seen against Tom. I don’t watch enough NFL to know this off the top of my cranium, but Tom with 7 rings, numerous SB appearances, multiple league MVPs, multiple SB MVPs, and SB victories with with two different teams...... I gotta go with Tom still.
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Certainly it's hard to argue against Brady. When I think of all-time great arguments I feel that we should compare the accomplishments relative to the era. If you do that, then Graham is right there.

I had this very discussion last night with my wife (what a woman, she actually let me ramble on about this). I mentioned the Super Bowl wins with two different teams and how amazing it was that he could walk into Tampa Bay and deliver at his age. I then mentioned other multiple team champions such as LeBron (Cleveland, Miami and LA), Kareem (Milwaukee and LA), Wilt (Philadelphia and LA) and Shaq (Miami and LA). But then I mentioned how Michael, Kobe, Bill Russell, Larry Bird and Dirk played with one team their entire career. So you can't point specifically to the two team argument though in Brady's case it is extremely compelling.

Relative to their era is an interesting subject. Pitchers in the early sixties had a lower mound so their dominant stats (Koufax and Gibson) were apparently thought to come with an advantage, so they raised the mound. Babe Ruth did not play against black players. Ted Williams went to WWII and came back almost as good as ever. Michael played baseball for two years, then came back and reeled off three more championships.

Tom Brady is playing in his era. I have NO DOUBT that he could easily call his own plays and would excel in that area if all the other quarterbacks had to call their own plays. I always felt Brady was the greatest because as I sit here, I can't name any wide receivers or running backs that he played with who were near the equal of Jerry Rice like Joe Montana had. Seemingly, NE could plug anybody in and Brady would not suffer any loss of production. I figured they must have had some unbelievably great practice techniques or something which I credited to Belichek.

Troy Aikman is in the Hall of Fame. What would Brady have done with Michael Irvin, Emmitt Smith, Jay Novacek, Alvin Harper and that incredible offensive line?

I put Otto Graham right there not to be crotchety like my Father in Law, but to remind us that we have seen this kind of greatness before. Check it out. It's called, "The history books."
 
I think TB proved yesterday by taking the Bucs and winning against the defending SB Champs he does not need to cheat.
How does anyone know he does not call the plays. Those 2 accusations sound like sour grapes.
Does anyone think the Chiefs are not a great team and will be back?
 
Horn6721 said:
I think TB proved yesterday by taking the Bucs and winning against the defending SB Champs he does not need to cheat.
How does anyone know he does not call the plays. Those 2 accusations sound like sour grapes.
Does anyone think the Chiefs are not a great team and will be back?
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I don't know for a fact that he doesn't call the plays. I'll research it. My FIL said what he said prior to the game. His comment was not necessarily against Brady, but against the modern era.
 
The Chiefs were in effect playing 9 on 11.

defenses today are not allowed to do to receivers what the ones in Graham’s or Starr or Unitas were allowed. Few of those interference calls last night would have gotten a look then.

Brady is the most successful of all time for sure
 
bystander said:
My Father in law (85 years ) say's Brady is not the GOAT because 1) He cheats (deflategate) and 2) He doesn't call his own plays like they did in the old days.

He likes Unitas and Bart Starr... he also mentioned Otto Graham:

"Graham is regarded by critics as one of the most dominant players of his era, having taken the Browns to league championship games every year between 1946 and 1955, winning seven of them. With Graham at quarterback, the Browns posted a record of 57 wins, 13 losses, and one tie, including a 9–3 win–loss record in the playoffs. While most of Graham's statistical records have been surpassed in the modern era, he still holds the NFL record for career average yards gained per pass attempt, with 8.63. He also holds the record for the highest career winning percentage for an NFL starting quarterback, at 0.810. Long-time New York Yankees owner George Steinbrenner, a friend of Graham's, once called him "as great of a quarterback as there ever was."[1]
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Sorry to your father-in-law, but Starr and Graham are not nearly good enough to be in the conversation. Starr was on a tremendous team with the best coach of the era. He never threw for more than 2438 yards and 16 tds in a 14 game season. His best trait was that he threw few interceptions. Graham had a high of 2844 yards and 20 tds in 1952, but he threw a lot of interceptions - 24 in 1952. In fairness, I never saw Graham play.
I could make an argument for Unitas. He had excellent stats - 3428 yards (1967) and 32 tds (1959). He threw a really beautiful pass - tight spiral and on target. He was regarded as the best by many people back in the 60s. Most of his passes were thrown out of a protected pocket. When he played against Bob Lilly and Jethro Pugh in Superbowl V, his passes were not so pretty - 3/9 with 1 TD and 2 interceptions. The TD was a twice deflected fluke pass.
IMHO, Brady was better than Unitas, just based on leadership alone. I think Elway, Payton Manning, and Montana are in the conversation for GOAT. Mahomes may be in the conversation some day.
 
Don’t know if Brady calls the plays, in fact I doubt it, but I do know he overrides. Recall in the game his screaming ‘no’ to the sidelines once, and then a more quiet ‘no’ on another occasion and an ‘ok’ on a few more. So I don’t think he calls the plays but I think he has significant contribution to the play selection.
Let’s face it, like him or hate him, taking the Bucs to the promised land is an amazing feat and one I’ll bet no one on the board here predicted or even gave it a thought at season beginning. I didn’t watch any games until the end but I’ll admit I never gave him a shot if I ever thought about it.
 
nr
I guess I was confused by your comment on TB'S record at Michigan. It was quite good which I understood you were saying based on his record at Michigan of course he would be a super star in NFL
Sorry if I misunderstood
 
Burton's take --

As I was watching the Super Bowl, I thought of the similarities between Tom Brady and Nick Saban. Not Saban and his coaching friend Bill Belichick. Why? Saban and Brady are the two biggest winners of the modern major sports era. Both sit atop any leader board with seven championships a piece. I mention this because nowadays, the best QBs on the field in the pro ranks are essentially coaches themselves.

After all, how many NFL coaches are actually younger and less experienced than Brady? Kliff Kingsbury, now the head coach of the Arizona Cardinals, was actually drafted by the Patriots when Brady was already on the roster. Brady and the Buccaneers beat the Chiefs soundly. Yet Brady wasn’t the only one who put in a winning performance. Neither was Nick Saban the only one on the sideline contributing to his championships. The best bring it out of their teammates and their coaches while maximizing their own abilities and strengths. That’s what Saban and Brady do better than anybody. ​
 
4th_floor said:
Sorry to your father-in-law, but Starr and Graham are not nearly good enough to be in the conversation. Starr was on a tremendous team with the best coach of the era. He never threw for more than 2438 yards and 16 tds in a 14 game season. His best trait was that he threw few interceptions. Graham had a high of 2844 yards and 20 tds in 1952, but he threw a lot of interceptions - 24 in 1952. In fairness, I never saw Graham play.
I could make an argument for Unitas. He had excellent stats - 3428 yards (1967) and 32 tds (1959). He threw a really beautiful pass - tight spiral and on target. He was regarded as the best by many people back in the 60s. Most of his passes were thrown out of a protected pocket. When he played against Bob Lilly and Jethro Pugh in Superbowl V, his passes were not so pretty - 3/9 with 1 TD and 2 interceptions. The TD was a twice deflected fluke pass.
IMHO, Brady was better than Unitas, just based on leadership alone. I think Elway, Payton Manning, and Montana are in the conversation for GOAT. Mahomes may be in the conversation some day.
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I hear you on the straight stats. I tend to analyze historical performances relative to their era. Maybe the DB's were mugging the receivers. Maybe the players didn't practice like they do today because they had to work in the offseason to pay the bills. Maybe they didn't watch film. The forward pass was an evolutionary act (Heck, UT ran that Wishbone. What did DR say: "Three things can happen when you pass and two of them are bad"?).

Graham was a winner. He was great in his day and dominated.
 
I predict no NFL QB will play in 7 Superbowls much less win them in the next 100 years. While not my favorite QB ever (Staubach) Brady is the greatest ever. And now that I’ve followed him more closely, a pretty damn good guy.
 
RainH2burntO said:
And duh...
Of course he is.
(At his position)

On a side note...
I vaguely remember an old quote from him that stood out to me...
Someone asked him around 4 Superbowl wins how it felt to be him or something like that...
. And he said something to the affect of I'll do my best at this...this is what I do now...but I wonder what else there is.. I am trying to find out. There's got to be more to life than just being good at football.
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Was that AFTER he married a supermodel richer than he was? Looks like Brady is good at family and football. No doubt being the Greatest football player ever will make it easier to do some other great things if he remains focused and ambitious.
..
 
Crockett said:
Was that AFTER he married a supermodel richer than he was? Looks like Brady is good at family and football. No doubt being the Greatest football player ever will make it easier to do some other great things if he remains focused and ambitious.
..
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Not being judgmental but didn’t he leave his actress wife while pregnant, who I think is amazingly beautiful, for his current super model wife? Not saying that makes him a bad family man, but I guess there’s a blemish.
 
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