The Silence of American Hawks
- Thread starter Musburger
- Start date
pasotex
2,500+ Posts
I do not have time to address this in the depth it deserves. I think claiming the political leanings of the "origin" of neoconservatives means something is problematic. It is important to know their political orientation when they actually came to power and caused real damage especially if you want to attribute blame to one party or the other. Rick Perry was originally a Democrat. I hardly think the Democrats get blamed for him.
I also think Truman and especially Kennedy's foreign policies were considerably more nuanced than wiki or a quick summary would reveal. Kennedy, in particular, was evolving before he was assassinated. Bay of Pigs and the poor advice that he received from the CIA concerning the events had a profound impact on him.
His earlier hawkish statements are misleading and reflect the residual impact of McCarthy on the Democratic Party. You could not appear "soft" on communism.
It is a very legitimate position that Kennedy would have avoided the entanglement in Vietnam that LBJ did not. It is an equally legitimate position that he would have followed the same path. We can never know this. My best guess is that JFK would have largely followed LBJ although he might not have committed as many troops and might have de-escalated at some point.
I also think Truman and especially Kennedy's foreign policies were considerably more nuanced than wiki or a quick summary would reveal. Kennedy, in particular, was evolving before he was assassinated. Bay of Pigs and the poor advice that he received from the CIA concerning the events had a profound impact on him.
His earlier hawkish statements are misleading and reflect the residual impact of McCarthy on the Democratic Party. You could not appear "soft" on communism.
It is a very legitimate position that Kennedy would have avoided the entanglement in Vietnam that LBJ did not. It is an equally legitimate position that he would have followed the same path. We can never know this. My best guess is that JFK would have largely followed LBJ although he might not have committed as many troops and might have de-escalated at some point.
ProdigalHorn
10,000+ Posts
H
Hu_Fan
Guest
pasotex
2,500+ Posts
McCarthy was not "right" about anything. He was absolute garbage. His list was a lie.
The amount of harm that he caused to genuinely good people makes me sincerely hope he is roasting in hell along side anyone who supported him.
His brand of demonization is very much like that practiced by House Republicans today. It is a pox on the American political system.
You have zero understanding of history or the Constitution if you think being a member of a socialist or communist party in the 1930s means **** about your loyalty to this country. Zero.
Do not make me go down the Venona rabbit trail either. The "evidence" against Hiss is at best inconclusive.
The amount of harm that he caused to genuinely good people makes me sincerely hope he is roasting in hell along side anyone who supported him.
His brand of demonization is very much like that practiced by House Republicans today. It is a pox on the American political system.
You have zero understanding of history or the Constitution if you think being a member of a socialist or communist party in the 1930s means **** about your loyalty to this country. Zero.
Do not make me go down the Venona rabbit trail either. The "evidence" against Hiss is at best inconclusive.
pasotex
2,500+ Posts
The "evidence" on Hiss is inconclusive at best.The Rosenbergs have zero to do with McCarthy and Ethel may have been innocent. You want to conflate McCarthy's claims with the Rosenbergs?
McCarthy was a liar who destroyed numerous people.
F anyone who supports that piece of filth.
Here is a nice summary from wiki of the ******** he did:
McCarthy was a liar who destroyed numerous people.
F anyone who supports that piece of filth.
Here is a nice summary from wiki of the ******** he did:
H
Hu_Fan
Guest
My dilemma.... my Indian Finger Torture....
I side almost completely against Obama and this Administration, hence can get my feathers ruffled by Roger(35).
On the other hand, I've come to realize he and I are practically blood brothers regards foreign policy.
As to ethics, I'm prone to saying that if "political power corrupts the morals and judgments" hence, the least amount of government is the more moral and ethical way to go... I would tend to error on the side of we citizens taking it on the chin and toughing out a society run down the hill of progressive-liberal agendas, if it would mean not shoving our political power down the throats of the rest of the world.
In other words, we should take responsibility for living up to the Constitution and it's Bill of Rights INSIDE our own borders, and try every way possible to extend those same liberties, Constitutional protections and the very same sense of the Bill of Rights BEYOND our borders.
Sum of my politics: The rest of the world deserves the same protections from our political power that our Constitution was designed to protect we, the people, our own citizens from the same government.
Fair is fair. And if it comes to abusive power, it should be we, the people that suffer from it -- not those outside our borders.
I recognize a lot of names, histories, etc. that Roger brings up. I've been at this (geopolitical research profession) only 20 years, but I feel I've gained a lifetime of awareness during that time. Still at it.
Best evening back yard dinner I ever had was sitting chewing the cud with the late Libertarian Presidential Candidate, Harry Browne. If you want to label me in some kind of way, put me with him. And Ron Paul. And in a lot of ways, with Roger.
Footnote: For over a year I was enjoying FoxNews. But lately I'm puking over most of what they have to say regards foreign policy. The lack of awareness is unnerving. Charles Krauthammer was my hero for a while. Now I find him extremely hawkish. O'Reilly... good Lord, he's beyond John McCain to the right. Right off the edge.
My main beef is the utter disregard for other cultures and peoples of the earth. A race of spiritual Masters would never discount large swaths of people in as bigoted accusatorial way as one mindset here does. I thought we were beyond the mental condition that created anti-Semitism. But that same condition can be used to demonize entire cultures, nations and nationalities, to include anyone who does not think exactly as we do (or pretend we do, or think we do).
Judge not, lest ye be judged, I believe is how it goes. Every nation should be free NOT to buy into the American brand of politics. Freedom of Self-determination. Right of free will. Or, shall I come over to your house and tell you and your family how I think you should conduct your life? You know, for your own good, that of your neighbors, and of the community as a whole.
I didn't think so. I should therefore also not badmouth you around the world and call you names and threaten you.
I side almost completely against Obama and this Administration, hence can get my feathers ruffled by Roger(35).
On the other hand, I've come to realize he and I are practically blood brothers regards foreign policy.
As to ethics, I'm prone to saying that if "political power corrupts the morals and judgments" hence, the least amount of government is the more moral and ethical way to go... I would tend to error on the side of we citizens taking it on the chin and toughing out a society run down the hill of progressive-liberal agendas, if it would mean not shoving our political power down the throats of the rest of the world.
In other words, we should take responsibility for living up to the Constitution and it's Bill of Rights INSIDE our own borders, and try every way possible to extend those same liberties, Constitutional protections and the very same sense of the Bill of Rights BEYOND our borders.
Sum of my politics: The rest of the world deserves the same protections from our political power that our Constitution was designed to protect we, the people, our own citizens from the same government.
Fair is fair. And if it comes to abusive power, it should be we, the people that suffer from it -- not those outside our borders.
I recognize a lot of names, histories, etc. that Roger brings up. I've been at this (geopolitical research profession) only 20 years, but I feel I've gained a lifetime of awareness during that time. Still at it.
Best evening back yard dinner I ever had was sitting chewing the cud with the late Libertarian Presidential Candidate, Harry Browne. If you want to label me in some kind of way, put me with him. And Ron Paul. And in a lot of ways, with Roger.
Footnote: For over a year I was enjoying FoxNews. But lately I'm puking over most of what they have to say regards foreign policy. The lack of awareness is unnerving. Charles Krauthammer was my hero for a while. Now I find him extremely hawkish. O'Reilly... good Lord, he's beyond John McCain to the right. Right off the edge.
My main beef is the utter disregard for other cultures and peoples of the earth. A race of spiritual Masters would never discount large swaths of people in as bigoted accusatorial way as one mindset here does. I thought we were beyond the mental condition that created anti-Semitism. But that same condition can be used to demonize entire cultures, nations and nationalities, to include anyone who does not think exactly as we do (or pretend we do, or think we do).
Judge not, lest ye be judged, I believe is how it goes. Every nation should be free NOT to buy into the American brand of politics. Freedom of Self-determination. Right of free will. Or, shall I come over to your house and tell you and your family how I think you should conduct your life? You know, for your own good, that of your neighbors, and of the community as a whole.
I didn't think so. I should therefore also not badmouth you around the world and call you names and threaten you.
pasotex
2,500+ Posts
You are wrong about what the KGB documents show or do not show. I am not surprised. Ignorance especially of history is a primary attribute of most posters on the far right on this board.
https://files.nyu.edu/th15/public/venona.html
You have provided zero "evidence" so far. You do realize this right?
https://files.nyu.edu/th15/public/venona.html
You have provided zero "evidence" so far. You do realize this right?
pasotex
2,500+ Posts
Yep.
And it is not ironclad. There was almost certainly a single communist agent in the US government at Yalta as indicated in Verona (and because of what Stalin knew). It was either Hiss or another employee of the Department of State, Wilder Foote. I don't think it was Hiss, but it is possible.
The central problem that I have with McCarthyism is that it was no crime to be a socialist or communist or to join such an organization in the 1930s. It was almost understandable under the circumstances of the depression.
He conflated an ordinary political organization with a USSR bent on world domination and used it to slander the Democratic Party and innumerable good people. This "weak on defense" ******** continues to this day and it certainly was very strong when Kennedy was running. McCarthy in some respects is responsible for the hawks in the Democratic Party.
And it is not ironclad. There was almost certainly a single communist agent in the US government at Yalta as indicated in Verona (and because of what Stalin knew). It was either Hiss or another employee of the Department of State, Wilder Foote. I don't think it was Hiss, but it is possible.
The central problem that I have with McCarthyism is that it was no crime to be a socialist or communist or to join such an organization in the 1930s. It was almost understandable under the circumstances of the depression.
He conflated an ordinary political organization with a USSR bent on world domination and used it to slander the Democratic Party and innumerable good people. This "weak on defense" ******** continues to this day and it certainly was very strong when Kennedy was running. McCarthy in some respects is responsible for the hawks in the Democratic Party.
Bevo Incognito
5,000+ Posts
hornpharmd
5,000+ Posts
it is an easy fix. vote for those who run on platforms to defund or abolish the agencies that are involved. Elect representatives that want to restore our freedoms and protect us from tyranny.
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