The Repulican Beto?

[Mr. Deez]

Having trouble reconciling these two statements, @Mr. Deez

If we vote party just because we always have (not ideological) ... then why would a leftist necessarily win any given district? Why would a conservative?

My intent is NOT to argumentative ... I just don't understand why the coin doesn't apply in both examples.

When I say they aren't ideological, I don't mean that they don't claim any allegiance to a particular ideology. People do identify as liberals, conservatives, moderates, etc. I mean that they aren't actually examining each candidate's positions on issues and then casting votes based on how each candidate's positions align with their ideology. They are casting votes based on how each candidate makes them feel. That's why some people in places like Collin and Williamson counties and the suburban areas of Harris and Bexar counties were willing to go vote for Beta. He made them feel good. Ted Cruz (and especially Donald Trump) did not.

I think the same phenomenon was taking place with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Joe Crowley. Crowley was a fairly pragmatic and deadpan candidate. AOC was a combative and more openly leftist. If you're a liberal (even if you don't know what that means), the latter candidate is going to appeal to you more. And of course, keep in mind that the district is almost 50 percent Latino. Massive numbers of them very like saw the names "Cortez" and "Crowley," and that was the beginning and the end of their inquiry.

 

[ShAArk92]

They are casting votes based on how each candidate makes them feel.

appreciate the follow up ...

I guess I just don't fully understand the failure to recognize. Someone who "identifies" as a conservative voting for someone who is just nearly the polar opposite of conservative because of feelings.

Perhaps they're not really conservative after all ... which is my starting point.

Conservatives have feelings but make such decisions upon thought ... not feelings.

A guy says he wants to ban a particular firearm which is materially indistinguishable in its function from a plethora of other makes/models ... and we say, "conservatively," that we'll accept that anti 2A position because preceding this ACT is a bunch of rhetoric which might make us feel good?

just doesn't sound like a conservative to me. It sounds like someone who wants to be convinced ... and if a candidate can articulate ... then the vote is garnered.

that's pitiful.

 

[ProdigalHorn]

They see him as a fresh face, with new ideas

Can they articulate what those "new ideas" are?

 

[Monahorns]

Prodigal, the ideas are from the New Deal. That is the only connection the ideas have to the word new.

 

[4th_floor]

..............I am inclined to keep government where it belongs and in charity is NOT it. Govt CAN'T be charitable, it can only Robin Hood resources.......................

That is an excellent point and well put. I will be using this when debating this issue in the future.

 

[Mr. Deez]

appreciate the follow up ...

I guess I just don't fully understand the failure to recognize. Someone who "identifies" as a conservative voting for someone who is just nearly the polar opposite of conservative because of feelings.

Perhaps they're not really conservative after all ... which is my starting point.

Conservatives have feelings but make such decisions upon thought ... not feelings.

A guy says he wants to ban a particular firearm which is materially indistinguishable in its function from a plethora of other makes/models ... and we say, "conservatively," that we'll accept that anti 2A position because preceding this ACT is a bunch of rhetoric which might make us feel good?

just doesn't sound like a conservative to me. It sounds like someone who wants to be convinced ... and if a candidate can articulate ... then the vote is garnered.

that's pitiful.

They likely weren't conservative as we would define the term. They are educated professionals or are the spouses of educated professionals. They voted Republican in the past, because the Party appealed to them and identified with them. It now makes little attempt to appeal to them and identifies more with the working class and rural voters.

 

[Horn6721]

?
I don't get it. What the GOP and Trump has done is not appealing to educated professionals who pretended to be conservative?
What is it they do not like about:
getting raises and bonuses? A tax cut?
Billions of repatriated dollars coming back?
companies beefing up here in our country?
trade agreements becoming fairer to America and workers?
manufacturing jobs coming back
historic unemployment across most groups?
getting NATO nations to pay their share?
There is enough good going on for Americans of all income/education levels and political ideology including great things going on for poor and minorities. The Dems have always pretended to care for the poor But only Trump and GOP actually did something that positively affected their lives, JOBS

If they really are educated they look pretty dumb saying what the GOP has going on does not appeal to them.

 

[mchammer]

?
I don't get it. What the GOP and Trump has done is not appealing to educated professionals who pretended to be conservative?
What is it they do not like about:
getting raises and bonuses? A tax cut?
Billions of repatriated dollars coming back?
companies beefing up here in our country?
trade agreements becoming fairer to America and workers?
manufacturing jobs coming back
historic unemployment across most groups?
getting NATO nations to pay their share?
There is enough good going on for Americans of all income/education levels and political ideology including great things going on for poor and minorities. The Dems have always pretended to care for the poor But only Trump and GOP actually did something that positively affected their lives, JOBS

If they really are educated they look pretty dumb saying what the GOP has going on does not appeal to them.

They are being shunned at work, at the club, in the teacher’s lounge, if found to be a Trump supporter. It has an effect on the margins. The house was decided in marginal districts by small margins.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I don't get it. What the GOP and Trump has done is not appealing to educated professionals who pretended to be conservative?
What is it they do not like about:
getting raises and bonuses? A tax cut?
Billions of repatriated dollars coming back?
companies beefing up here in our country?
trade agreements becoming fairer to America and workers?
manufacturing jobs coming back
historic unemployment across most groups?
getting NATO nations to pay their share?
There is enough good going on for Americans of all income/education levels and political ideology including great things going on for poor and minorities. The Dems have always pretended to care for the poor But only Trump and GOP actually did something that positively affected their lives, JOBS

Like I said, they aren't voting on policy preferences or even outcomes. They're voting based on who identifies with and appeals to them. Even if they can superficially point to a policy position, that isn't driving their decision. It's being used to reinforce a decision that was already made.

If you want people to vote for you, you have to speak their language and act like you have similar values of decorum. If you pick fights over stupid things and generally act like a jackass, it's going to turn some people off. Of course, it will turn some people on too. That's how we're getting the current political realignment. Suburban mom's don't like this routine, but Joe Six-pack does.

If they really are educated they look pretty dumb saying what the GOP has going on does not appeal to them.

They didn't say that. I said that. They would say can't associate with racists and sexists who threaten our democracy and those who enable them. It feels good to take that stance, and of course, the media celebrates those who do.

And being educated has nothing to do with better insticts for politics or value judgments. There's a big difference between intelligence and wisdom.

 

[Horn6721]

CNN talking head Kirsten Powell said Dems who did not vote for Mia Love Or Young Kim or John James are racist
.CNN's Powers: All Trump Supporters Are Racist





oh wait

 

[Mr. Deez]

CNN talking head Kirsten Powell said Dems who did not vote for Mia Love Or Young Kim or John James are racist
.CNN's Powers: All Trump Supporters Are Racist





oh wait

I have to wonder if some of these talking heads are nothing more than hacks playing the characters that their networks want them to play. Kirsten Powers used to be on Fox and was pretty moderate and sensible. On CNN, she turns into a crazy person.

Juan Williams did the same in reverse. On CNN, he was a screaming freak. On Fox, he is still liberal but far more reserved.

 

[Clean]

CNN talking head Kirsten Powell said Dems who did not vote for Mia Love Or Young Kim or John James are racist

Can't stand Don Lemon (he's appropriately named), so I didn't watch the clip, but what if the white candidate is better qualified? Do I still have to vote for the minority candidate to avoid the appearance of racism according to Lemon and Company?

 

[HornyBill]

Politicians are the scum of the earth and always will be.

 

[mchammer]

Politicians are the scum of the earth and always will be.

I take a different tack. I give them credit for running in an election and having the balls to face defeat. It’s the political talking heads that are scum. They risk nothing and say outrageous things.

 

[Horn6721]

mc
I agree. Running for any office has to be the most humiliating experience for the candidate and family.
There are some politicians who genuinely want to good things.Not all of course but there are good people who run for office.

 

[HornyBill]

mc
I agree. Running for any office has to be the most humiliating experience for the candidate and family.
There are some politicians who genuinely want to good things.Not all of course but there are good people who run for office.

I believe some may have good intentions going in. I think most of those get corrupted and all go along party lines and vote for things against the best interests of their own constituents. This makes them all liars

 

[mchammer]

I believe some may have good intentions going in. I think most of those get corrupted and all go along party lines and vote for things against the best interests of their own constituents. This makes them all liars

True, but in that case, I blame the voters for re-electing them.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Politicians are the scum of the earth and always will be.

The problem isn't the politicians.

 

[ShAArk92]

They are educated professionals or are the spouses of educated professionals.

elistists, then. self-perceived/presumed "evolved sensibilities."

OK ... that makes better sense.

identity in the sheepskin(s). thanks.

 

[Monahorns]

I agree with Carlin with much that he says. The politicians are going to reflect culture. The culture has coarsened over the last 50 years too.

Where I don't agree though is that political systems are corrosive in general. The job of politician attracts probably the worst types of people in the society. I have heard that studies have found that most are socio/pyschopaths. Even those who aren't then find themselves in an organization whose priority is really to serve its own interests and maybe secondarily the citizen's interests, maybe.

Maybe Carlin is completely right though. We tolerate government. The government deceives us to their true nature, but still the facts are there before us, but "we" want to believe.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I agree with Carlin with much that he says. The politicians are going to reflect culture. The culture has coarsened over the last 50 years too.

Where I don't agree though is that political systems are corrosive in general. The job of politician attracts probably the worst types of people in the society. I have heard that studies have found that most are socio/pyschopaths. Even those who aren't then find themselves in an organization whose priority is really to serve its own interests and maybe secondarily the citizen's interests, maybe.

Maybe Carlin is completely right though. We tolerate government. The government deceives us to their true nature, but still the facts are there before us, but "we" want to believe.

He's more foul-mouthed than is necessary, but I basically think he's right. This isn't a Marxist-Leninist state (yet). It's a free country. We choose our leaders. They aren't forced on us. If they suck, it is with the full blessing of the American people. They suck, because we suck.

And I don't think he's saying that political systems are corrosive in general or inherently. I think he'd say our system is pretty good but fails because of our people. If we weren't so stupid, selfish, and checked out, we'd have better politicians.

 

[Monahorns]

Deez, I think state themselves are corrosive and attract the worst of the worst of a people. Can we the people do more? Yes. But that doesn't mean it is all our fault.

The US state has done much to deceive the populace and shape opinion. Part of that deception is something that the normal person can never detect or fight. There is asymmetry in knowledge and attention on the issues. Everyone should be a little more aware of what is going on, but we are playing at the margins here.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Deez, I think state themselves are corrosive and attract the worst of the worst of a people. Can we the people do more? Yes. But that doesn't mean it is all our fault.

Politics may attract bad people, but the public doesn't have to empower them. Good people do get into politics on both sides pretty regularly, but they are usually rejected by the public.

The US state has done much to deceive the populace and shape opinion.

But that's a function of whom we voluntarily empower. We let crackpots take over the education system and use it as a propaganda weapon. We didn't have to. But we were too concerned with making money and being consumers to care. Or as Carlin put it, "we were at the mall, scratching our ***, picking our nose, pulling our credit card out of our fanny pack and buying a pair of sneakers with lights in them."

 

[ShAArk92]

But that doesn't mean it is all our fault.

Actually that's precisely what it means.

to have a government construct whereby the people choose via vote counts (the actual ones, not those which are corrupted) ... and via lobby ... and, most importantly, relies upon SELF-government (aka self-discipline) ... bad govt shouldn't be tolerated, but it is.

In fact, the people BEG for it, collectively, at the voting booth.

We can be fooled by a candidate ... but we can't be fooled by an incumbent, unless we are willingly fooled ... or have just outright punted our Founding and really DO want Betos and Obamas.

 

[Monahorns]

See you don't even know you are still being deceived. That is how good they are and how tilted in the government's favor it is.

 

[ShAArk92]

so voting doesn't matter? Is that what you're saying?

If voting doesn't matter ... then why has Broward county been the bane of vote counting?

 

[Monahorns]

Voting matters some. Sure. But the 2 parties haven't been very different in many ways. Regardless of who is the President the government is still going to run a deficit, we are still going closer and closer to socialized healthcare, the military is going to bomb countries in the ME, the Fed is going to manipulate the money supply to their benefit, etc.

There are some differences in terms of culture war and I do think that is important. I do prefer getting the little bit better candidate for business too. But I do wish the choices were more drastic.