The real problem with our tax system

there's a reason no CEO has taken Warren Buffet up on his $1MM offer. (typo, not B as before)

the ultra-wealthy are masters at paying as little in tax as is legally allowed. i don't hate them for it. they are doing what they should do. i hate the system for making it so easy for them to do it.
 
Fried - you are 100% correct...my only response to this is "I know and I don't know if it's fair" oh, and also "stop buying lotto tickets".......
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Here's the thing- poor people (in this country) are poor b/c they do poor people things. Now we can argue all day long abouat why they do poor people things, but the fact is they do.

Do you know that the average powerball ticket player is disproportionately located in the poorest negihborhoods and the average lottery/lotto player plays like $24.00 a week on average. What happens if instead of blowing that money they go ahead and invest the $100.00 a month in a mutual fund that nets say 10% over the course of their working lifetime. You are talking about somewhere around 1/2 a million dollars, just by not playing the lotto and investing it instead.

Or the poor peopel who have a cell phone and cable but do not have electricity that you mentioned. Why on earth would this be the case (or the 1/3 of people who are late/delinquent on their mortgage but current on their credit cards). What on earth is driving that stupidity. You are entering foreclosure but your Visa bill is paid?

Food, utilites, shelter, tranportation- everything else, in that order. Also, you have to be a chump, sucker or idiot to work at McDonalds or starbucks.

They pay like minimum wage. I made 100's of dollars a day as a kid cutting grass, raking leaves, weeding yards, cleaning out gutter snd powerwashing houses.

It ain't rocket science. Figure out something you can do and then freaking do it, you'll make more than working at McDonalds.

Hell, deliever pizza's or chicken wings or something like that- I used to make $14.00 an hour doing that, and you can do that nights after you work your regular job during the day- it ain't fun, but you can get ahead.
 
Anyone (in america) who lets their kid go to bed having only eaten a potatoe in two days should be tarred, feathered and horsewhipped.

We have a ton of charities giving away food and hot meals everywhere. The government has to advertise and commit fraud in an attempt to give away all the food stamps the program offers- there is more provided for then the need.

Seriously, I can't help it that some people go to bed hungry in America, b/c they are literally making the choice to do so. I value liberty way too much to require them to do anything about being hungry, but I don't feel sorry for them about it. I feel sorry for children that can't choose any different- but do not we have free breakfast and lunch at school? I know we do, b/c I used to eat it when we were living below the poverty line. i never once went hungry. You can make a pot of spaghetti and eat for a week for $10.00 (maybe $20.00). Or you can get it for free at the soup kitchen, meals on wheels or call your local church, synagogue, mosque or temple.
 
Easy solution to part of this problem:

Line item veto.

If the president could weed out shameful spending from some of the bills that are passed we could all lower our taxes!
 
The obvious reason the rich pay most of the taxes is that's where most of the income is. It is simple arithmatic that the collection must come first, and mostly, from the high incomes. You can't get to the target any other way.

At that point, its sort of optional how much of the burden gets extended to the lower incomes. Most think of progressivity as ensuring the rich pay their share. The tax system , period, ensures the rich pay their share. The progressivity ensures the lower incomes pay something, rather than nothing.

So, here's where the moral conflicts arise. The rich think the deal isn't fair (see the reference to the Pinker article, on Quacks I think). They have evidence to back it up, on the surface. On the other hand, according to this perspective, being fair means raising the tax on the lower incomes. There is obviously no way to get consensus on this.

For the lower incomes, the issue also comes as one of fairness. But this is about "do the rich pay enough", which is really a translation of, "can the rich pick up some more of my bill."

The lower income position has the population numbers, the higher income constituency has some influence advantage. A bargaiin is reached at the political stalemate border. This will change from time to time.

I don't know why people actually argue these fairness issues out as if any one perspective will be convinced of the other.

The country clearly seems in a populist mood. This favors the border shift in the direction of the lower income constituency. We can thank the Republican administration, supposedly the stewards of the interests of the higher incomes, for this.

Another reason to fire those ********.
 
Wulaw,

Do you deny that your lifestyle requires poor people? If everyone earned the same amount as you, everything would be more expensive, making the value of your current money worth much less. So what you want is to deny them government benefits, and have them pay an equal percentage in taxes as you. Yet you still want a free public education for your kids, or at the very least, an affordable private education. You also want your Big Mac Combo to cost around 5 dollars, and you'd like to have a good meal at Oliver Garden for under 75.

Poor people are poor because they do poor things is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, and this statement almost certainly comes from a person who grew up in suburbia and had little contact with actual poor people. There are a lot of BS fallacies that are put forth as truths on this thread. 1) A phone is required for employment and cell phones are currently cheaper than landlines, so poor people require cellphones, 2) Poor people do not have no electricity, yet have cable. Would they hook a car battery to their tv? 3) While poor people disproportionately play the lottery, it is because they see it as the only way to get out of their current situation. Why do they see it that way? Because they didn't go to FBISD schools. The schools they went to were underfunded. They have friends who were shot. They have been shot at themselves. The police in their neighborhood are more interested in harassing them then actually doing policework and making it a safe place to live. Their teachers aren't helping them find a way to go to college. When they get out of high school, nothing is available to them except menial jobs, so they stay in the same area and have kids that were the same as they are.

So you can come on here and talk BS all you want, but you are part of the problem, not the solution. It was your forefathers who left the cities and formed separate external cities, so that their local tax money wouldn't have to fund poor urban schools and their kids wouldn't have to attend school with poor kids. The "poor problem" was made by the wealthy when they decided to move out and segregate. When people see nothing but poverty, how can they learn anything else. So, Wulaw, unless you're spending your nights volunteering in poor areas on education and money management, then you are part of the problem. Your parents cut the poor off from local tax revenue. And now you want to take it a step further and cut them off from federal tax revenue.
 
Fondren- you are full of **** to think you can look into my heart and tell me anything. It is presumptuous and stupid.

Additionally, you are having reading comprehension issues. at no point in time did I ever say that they should pay the same percentage of their income as I do in taxes- I said that they should have to pay something so that they have a stake in our governemnt.

And at no point in time did I ever say they should be cut off from federal aid- I said that they should be taxed regardless of the amount of money they make.

Thanks for making assumptions about me by the way. I've grown up watching my parents work union jobs, I've grown up watching them go back to school and make nothing, I've seen them start in white collar jobs or remain unemployed or underemployed and I've seen them make 6 figures. I've been at every level of the economic spectram in my life. And both my parents came from nothing. I've seen them rise from the bottom quintile to the top quintile and then slide down a little bit.

As I mentioned earlier- I know there are government programs for the poor b/c I used to be on them- so take your self righteousness and sell it somewhere else.

I tried to teach in inner city houston, and was not allowed to b/c I did not have a teachers certificate. I will teach someday, and it will be in the city, b/c that's the best way to make a differnce in this world, something that I desire to do from a spiritual standpoint. Before I do that though, I have to do rich people things (like payoff all my debts, live on less than I make and invest the difference) so that I can have the freedom in life to do something to make this country a better place. Of course, our tax system doesn't help this, but AGAIN my argument has not ever been (in this thread) to lower my taxes, but rather to raise everyone else's (but not to the level of mine- I've never asked for that).

I've done my share of volunteering, and I can guarantdamntee you I've given away more money to help more people than 99% of fellow american's. Someday I want to do more.

But to say that the deck is so stacked against anyone in this country that they cannot improve their lot in life flies totally and comletely against everything I've seen with my own two damn eyes and everything I believe and hold dear.

The argument that I need poor people to mainatin my lifestyle is absolutely absurd. A rising tide lifts ALL boasts. Go look at per capita GDP in this world in the mid 17th century, compare it to the mid 20th century and compare it to now. Try reading a few economoics text books. Read a book called the eveloution of the economy which totally and completely lays bare the argument that someone has to lose for someone else to win. We can all win together, and I've never gotten mine at the expense of anyone else.

And I absolutely, positively will contend that people are poor in this country b/c they do poor people things. I don't care if it is easier to see winning the lottery (or making the nfl or nba) as the only way out- it's just not even close to being accurate, it demeans the person and/or community you are talking about, and cheapens the idea that is America, that people risk dealth, deportation and jail to experience for themselves. That is the American dream.

I'm answering tangents and strawmen that you set up that didn't relate at all to what I had to say. I find them so repugnant and odious that I felt the need to respond.
 
I'm probably in the minority but I'm okay with the tax amount I pay. Not saying that I like to pay it but I don't believe its unreasonable. And being single without kids I should have the most room to ***** subsidizing your kids in school!

And the last tme I checked the 60K guy with 4 kids pays a higher percentage of their income to Fica than Mr. 250K pays. And FICA is no different than Withholding except that those making over 100k have their percentage lowered.
 
But Fica is still capped regardless of the reason. Someone making an income around the cap pays about the same or higher overall percentage of their income in taxes than someone making 300K.
 
I'd just like to point out that poor people *DO* indeed pay taxes. The difference is they get much of it back in the form of a refund. It's actually an interest free loan to the government that is probably a pretty important revenue stream.

Also, I want to know how I can get my money back. I made 31K last year, paid 5K in taxes, and ended up owing like 90 bucks after filing my return. Granted, single, no kids, and debt-free isn't exactly the perfect situation when it comes to refunds, but there's at least *ONE* person that doesn't make much money who didn't get a cush refund

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Right - it is capped because SS is a government mandated savings program. The government forces you to save by making you pay the FICA tax. Once eligible to draw from that savings, you are capped on the amount of benefits you get back based on what you put it. Since the government doesn't think someone should be drawing a $20,000 SS check, they cap the benefit (and, therefore, the amount you pay in).

Raising FICA caps would mean only that higher earning workers would get more when they start drawing SS (their forced savings).
 
Right Wulaw,

I misread. You didn't get on here and say poor people need to pay more taxes, and that poor people are poor because they do poor things. That must've been someone else under your username. That must've been someone else talking about ******** like cell phones, cable bills and lottery as well. I was just waiting for the story about how someone saw somebody with a Lone Star card drive off in an Exhibition, and then attributing it to all poor people. It was those assertions I was refuting and will still refute. Nobody gets out of poverty alone. They always need a helping hand.

Also, if you don't want someone off government assistance, then why do you want them to pay FIT if they will just get it back? You just can't make everyone a net giver. It's not possible.

And I'll stand by my assertion that you don't know poverty if you don't think the deck is stacked against the poor in this country, even doubly so against those who are a minority and poor. If you really were on gov't assistance and went to public school in an urban area then you know that already.
 
I didn't say I went to high school in an urban area.

And I never said take away any programs- I said make them pay taxes.

When my buddy got **** canned from his company and was on unemployment he still had to pay taxes on that amount of money- so I have no idea where you are equating charging taxes to taking away benefits.

And you are posting strawman after strawman and not responding to what I'm saying. And you act like someone can't work their way out of a bad situation and I say that's total and unadulterated *********. I've seen it time and time again.
 
What strawman?

I posted exactly what you said and then responded to it. You're now trying to change it up by throwing in your buddy on unemployment, which is essentially an insurance payment. People that grow up in a cycle of poverty have a very difficult time getting out. We're not talking about a guy down on his luck who just lost his job. We're talking about people born into poverty and given very little education. Nobody pulls themselves up by the bootstraps and makes it work in that situation. They always need someone to help them do it, whether it be a teacher, a mentor, a priest, a social worker, or an uncle. And generally, if the help isn't there when they're young, the cycle will persist and their children will go through the same thing.

Look, I know you're not happy with your tax burden. This isn't the first tax thread we've locked horns on. I've agreed with you on other issues, but we are not gonna agree on taxes. I believe the heavier burden should be on those who can most afford it, and I am included in that group. And yes, I also believe that those who can least afford it should pay not FIT. Sales tax alone is a heavy enough burden for them.
 
Again- in this thread I am not talking about my tax burden at all, I'm talking about what others pay.

The point I am making is that I think it would be better if everyone paid some manner of FIT, b/c if they did then everyone would understand and realize government programs are not free, even if they are free to them, and everyone would be more involved and locked into the system. I think this would lead to greater accountability from our politicians and perhaps better government. i'm not saying shift the burder from me to the poor by lowering my taxes, I'm saying make the poor pay some too so they are invested in the system and have some ownership of the decision making process.

You said my lifestyle requires a poor underclass and I think that is totaly and complete, unadulterated nonsense. Of course not everyone is going to make the same amount of money, in general people are paid by their value creation to society, uniqueness (difficulty to replace with someone more or less as good as them at what they do) and skill set.

If you want everyone to make the same amount of money then sign me up to teach, or be a courier, or deliver pizza's (but courier is way better) or wait tables or something like that b/c it would be a hell of a lot less stressful then life right now for me.

That's not the way society works, nor is it the way that it should, b/c then NOTHING would get done. My lifestyle, however, does not need to rely on a working poor- in fact I (and many others who make good money) do a fantastic job of creating wealth for others. Be it the maid that makes $20.00 an hour cleaning my house or the yard guy who makes $30.00 an hour cleaning my house or the valet at my favorite restaurant that gets $5.00 for parking my car all of these people are better off for having associated with me (not to mention my 5 employees) economically. I know this b/c they would not do what they do otherwise if this were not the case.

Personally, I wish people didn't have to work at McDonalds and had initiative to do other things, b/c I think by and large it's a chump job for the pay. If enough other people did other things then they'd have to pay better and it ain't such a chump job (like in areas at the oil patch where they are making like 14 or 15 an hour- good for them- it's probably worth working there for that wage).

As to the idea that people can't pull themselves up I just have a much more optimistic view of america then that. If you have any spark of life and match that with a work ethic the sky is literally the limiit for you. There are some with low native intelligence, lack of skills etc who the world isn't open to as much as you or I, but that doesn't mean we should quit on them. For them there should (and is) a social safety net through the government (which I fund) and charity (which I fund), so that nobody has to go to bed hungry. It's a moral imperative for me to try to make the world a better place, b/c I truly believe that who God blesses with much God entrusts much in the way of responsibility and I try to live my life this way.

Again, I'm not (nor ever have been on this thread) talking about my tax burden (besides a throaway line in the beginning that I wouldn't complain if my taxes are lowerd) I'm saying everyone should pay something so everyone is emotionally invested. I don't think it's good to have 50 something percent of the population not paying FIT.

I wish, for the benefit of the poor, that social security reform privitizing and creating personal accounts could have been passed in some form b/c this would create an investment vehicle for the working poor through which they could create wealth and pass it on at a greater level then they ever have. The government could have helped them do "rich people things" with their money and made their life better. It didn't happen and a pox on everyone's head who is responsible for that.

I think it's criminal how the democratic party is so intent on keeping people poor. It's not compassion it's crass political calculation. I really and truly wish we could have someone combine a heart for helping with some compassion with a modicum of economic sense and they could be given some real power.

Guys like Bill Gates are doing beautiful things in this world to help the poor- I wish government could say the same (either party).
 
2 clean up items unrelated to my back and forth with Fondren

1) somebody asked if government was more efficient/ better bang for the buck if there would be less complaint about taxes. Speaking only for myself I would say yes, if the government were better at delivering services to the people who need them, and the wealth redistribution worked better I would have much less to complain about. It isn't so much what I'm paying it's the horrible feeling that my efforts are both unappreciated and wasted. I would like for more to be done to help people in a real way- I don't think that the federal governmetn can say this about themselves.

2) Somebody earlier said that the reason some people are poor is b/c they do a job they love. I cannot disagree more. Most people who are rich get rich doing something they love and they do it really well as a natural outreach of their passion.

If you are talking about people in the government sector doing stuff like teaching or cop work or firefighting you are wrong there too. They might not ever get rich (but they can retire really comfortably if they are smart with their money). A couple of teachers with 10 or 15 years in make somewhere around 100k. A firefighter with good experience makes 60 or 70k if he keeps promoting. I have no idea about cops but I bet it would be the same. Some people pick job satisfaction over money, but that doesn't make them poor. People who love what they do just aren't poor by any rationale definition of the word. I'd bet less then 1 in 100 people that describe themselves as loving their job would also describe themselves as poor.
 
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