The Last Temptation: How Evangelicals lost their way

ProdigalHorn said:
Pattern's starting to emerge, isn't it? "God needs government to do His work." "God needs government to step in and fulfill prophecies." "God can't come back and fulfill His purpose unless we set the table for him."
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That's a significant factor in the Right's support for Israel. It's not the only reason, of course. Israel is the most pro-American and Westernized regime in the Middle East, and that's the overriding factor. However, I know tons of conservatives who think supporting Israel is a biblical mandate and has a bearing on the Second Coming of Christ. I think that's nonsense, but that's me.
 
Mr. Deez said:
However, I know tons of conservatives who think supporting Israel is a biblical mandate and has a bearing on the Second Coming of Christ.
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the former could be accurately stated ... if for no other reason than simple observation of history. None who've opposed Israel have lasted. So that alone should say ... we should at least be neutral, if not a proponent of Israel.

AFA "ushering" Christ's Second Coming ... that's going to happen as it has been prophesied and I believe it's going to happen according to God's timeline ... part of it given to us in The Holy Bible.

Though Jesus Himself said no one knows the day nor hour ... not even The Son (Himself) but only the Father. Jesus also said we'd know the season by observation like that of the fig tree's blossoming.

Sept 23 2017 was, I believe, one of those signs Jesus revealed to John in Revelations ... specifically Rev 12. that alignment (not to be worshipped nor to have decisions made on where to attend school, et al) ... hasn't happened in 6000 years.

Jesus said "this generation" when the Jews have their nation restored (1947?) ... "this generation shall not pass" before the End Times occur. Well ... those born in 1947 are beginning to get a little long in the tooth.

I digressed a little ... but the point is ... being Christian shouldn't preempt one from holding public office. The values that person holds and the wisdom to which that person has access is vitally needed. What's problematic about Christians in public office is the shift in their personal lives and of those who support them ... FROM The Master to the Government. THAT is the problem, as @Monahorns has said and is the central theme in "Blinded By Might..." by Cal Thomas.
 
Crockett said:
Yeah ... as I read history that is not a particularly recent development.
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I would definitely argue that what Paul referred to there was starting to happen in his day, and was fully on display within a generation of his writing. And it's been around in some form ever since.

ShAArk92 said:
Though Jesus Himself said no one knows the day nor hour ... not even The Son (Himself) but only the Father. Jesus also said we'd know the season by observation like that of the fig tree's blossoming.

Sept 23 2017 was, I believe, one of those signs Jesus revealed to John in Revelations ... specifically Rev 12. that alignment (not to be worshipped nor to have decisions made on where to attend school, et al) ... hasn't happened in 6000 years.
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I'm desperately holding myself back from turning this into a theological treatise on Jesus' prophesies and how they relate to Revelation, but I'm gonna be strong. :D
 
I admitted it was a bit ... a very little bit ... off the OP, but then even recaged myself. ;)

I'm just saying ... the house is about to be shaken. Get ready.
 
ShAArk92 said:
the former could be accurately stated ... if for no other reason than simple observation of history. None who've opposed Israel have lasted. So that alone should say ... we should at least be neutral, if not a proponent of Israel.
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As it's currently constructed, Israel has only existed for 70 years. That's hardly long enough to establish a pattern. I'm not saying we shouldn't support Israel. We should, but it's on the merits. It's not because of anything biblical.

ShAArk92 said:
Though Jesus Himself said no one knows the day nor hour ... not even The Son (Himself) but only the Father. Jesus also said we'd know the season by observation like that of the fig tree's blossoming.
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This is true, which is why I don't think there's anything we can do to rig it. He's coming when God has it planned, whether there's a Jewish state or not.

ShAArk92 said:
Jesus said "this generation" when the Jews have their nation restored (1947?) ... "this generation shall not pass" before the End Times occur. Well ... those born in 1947 are beginning to get a little long in the tooth.
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What's a Jew? Are we talking about a racial/ethnic group? If so, how "Jewish" does somebody have to be to qualify? Or are we talking about a religious group? If so, then can we even call Israel a Jewish state since about 2/3 of them aren't non-observant or atheist? How do we reconcile either assumption with Galatians 3 and Romans 2? The Apostle Paul basically establishes that (1) that the true circumcision is of the heart, not the body and (2) that the covenant of Abraham goes through Christ, not through some ethnic group. To God, there are no Jews or Gentiles anymore. What we call "Jews" aren't unique or special. They're fallen human beings like anybody else.
 
I firmly believe that one of the worst things ever to happen to Christianity was when Christians decided that it was a good idea to try and enlist the government on their side, or when Christians assumed governmentroles and started trying to use that positionto support religious ideals.
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So you have a problem with what Theodosius I did with the Roman Empire in 380 AD? America has had leaders supporting Christianity for most of its history.

The general opposition to Christianity in government is a 20th century trend.
 
Mr. Deez said:
As it's currently constructed, Israel has only existed for 70 years. That's hardly long enough to establish a pattern.
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there's not going to be a pattern. The only variance from 1947 I can see is that if another evildoer scatters the Jews all over the planet again, leaving them without a nation again ... and at another point in the future does again become a nation whereby THAT generation is the referenced.

This is only going to happen once. So, no pattern.

Mr. Deez said:
This is true, which is why I don't think there's anything we can do to rig it.
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yessir ... I was "amening" you. :)

Mr. Deez said:
What we call "Jews" aren't unique or special. They're fallen human beings like anybody else.
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They are unique because they share the same lineage with Jesus Christ ... these people are the ones referenced in Revelation to whom the Two Witnesses share Christ's Gospel message and bring 144K (IDK if that's a precise number or representative of the twelve tribes) ... these are those who surrender to Christ during the (Great) Tribulation.

They've suspended their practices in the Temple ... because they do not have "The Temple" ... that will change ... and soon, I think. The sacrifices will resume (says so in Revelations) and the Anti Christ will be the one who "brokers" the 7 year peace deal which allows for the resumption of the sacrifices .... 3 1/2 years into it ... he reneges ... enters the Temple, the Holy of Holies ... just as it was constructed while the Israelites were wandering in the wilderness after the exodus ... he'll declare himself God and cease the sacrifices.

He'll then exit the Temple and murder the Two Witnesses in the street of Jerusalem ... where they'll lay for 3 days and others will walk passed.

It's pretty incredible ... meanwhile ... the economic system is consolidated (perhaps from nations in default???) and the "mark of the beast" is required to commerce.

I don't know the day nor the hour ... but I can recognize the season. He said we'd be able to know when he was knocking at the door. I don't believe we're there yet (no 7 year deal with Israel) ... but ... to continue to metaphor, I think Jesus is getting out of His car in the driveway, and beginning the walk to the front door on which to knock.

I think the reason Daniel prayed for 21 days without answer, due to Lucifer literally tangling with Gabriel as he was sent to reveal to Daniel (specifically chapters 9-11) ... and tapped-out by Michael ... was that Daniel 9-11 was the part of End Times God wants us to know ... to BE ALERT.

I'm still learning ... but I am persuaded the "two legs of Daniels statue" are the armies of the North and West ... converging on (As)syria.

It's fascinating. My personal challenge is to keep from getting giddy and "seeing what I want to see" ... slamming together current events upon prophesy I believe to have been fulfilled and prophesy I really want fulfilled so we can "start the last clock" on the "Days of Daniel"

Thanks Deez.
 
LongestHorn said:
I'm an evangelist and a Trump voter. But Trump as the 'second coming of God' is blasphemous.
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fact is ... there's no perfect candidate for the fundamental Christian.

politics itself is often an exercise in compromise. When those compromises result in less than perfect candidates (and they always do) ... what's the point of highlighting this in a vote/support of a candidate who is MOSTLY aligned with a given set of values?

This should UNDERSCORE ... there is none perfect, no not ONE ... even if that imperfect is a citizen/voter.

I haven't heard anyone claim Trump to be perfect for them ... as a fundamentalist Christian .... but I've heard plenty regard the alternative as a non-starter ... which the Democrats most certainly have offered non-starters for the last 35ish years.
 
Trump is clearly not a Christian role model but who exactly should Evangelicals have voted for in 2016? Their alternative choice was a pro-abortion feminist who labeled them as deplorables. Perhaps if Dems were less caustic towards Christianity then they could win some of these voters.
 
Monahorns said:
close anyone's mind who is considering not voting for Trump.
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the DNC had better get real with its platform and its candidate. I find ZERO reason to vote for any of the declared DNC candidates based on their own person ... AS WELL AS the platform they would seek to represent.

But hey ... what do I know?
 
LongestHorn said:
Redemption immediately comes to mind.
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probably a joke ...

but just in case ... what do you know? Narry enough my friend. A vote cast or support of isn't going to redeem or reject you.

I recognize there's the element of "just shut up" ... so the attempted shaming is designed to do just that. Clearly, if there's redemption or rejection due to vote/support, rejection is realized by supporting the contemporary democrat.

I recognize another truth in the Gospel ... there's none perfect, no not one. So, go with the guy who'll BEST (not necessarily complete) represent your values.

By any measure for a fundamentalist Christian ... that's a conservative philosophy.

Is there any serious suggestion of anything even pretending to be conservative in the democrat candidate pool?

Naw ... there's not. Trump 2020 with smile on my face and a clear conscience ... cause I know who's REALLY in charge.
 
I recognize another truth in the Gospel ... there's none perfect, no not one. So, go with the guy who'll BEST (not necessarily complete) represent your values.
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I can buy that, but it's a very different philosophy from what used to be espoused (which was more of "there's a very high minimum character baseline and you don't vote for someone above that regardless").

I haven't heard anyone claim Trump to be perfect for them ... as a fundamentalist Christian .... but I've heard plenty regard the alternative as a non-starter
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There were plenty of Republican alternatives also, even for those who see it as a "my team vs your team" deal and won't ever consider any other party.

Although it's worth noting that a large number of Christians did vote for those alternatives. Possibly more so than for Trump in the primaries.

and is the central theme in "Blinded By Might..." by Cal Thomas.
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I've been meaning to read that again lately.
 
Statalyzer said:
There were plenty of Republican alternatives also, even for those who see it as a "my team vs your team" deal
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Voted cruz. Or was going to until he dropped out before the Texas primary.

Voted for the Constitution Party guy in the general.

This time ... doesn’t appear to be an alternative ... and given I was wrong about Trumps ever/even governing ...

I am prepared to support him after his 2.5 year track record.

Recognizing no one is perfect. But he’s less imperfect where it matters for this job.
 
ShAArk92 said:
be a private donor to charity (The Church) and oppose government confiscation/redistribution of wealth.
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Good summary statement. As a Christian, I give to my church and to the Billy Graham Association. Those funds go to supporting the church as a body and spreading the Gospel as Jesus commended in the Great Commission. They also support those in need.

I also support some individual charities that assist those in need. I'm happy to do so, but I object to the Government confiscating money to give handouts - as Mr. Deez noted, that's a scheme for the redistribution of wealth.
 
Longesthorn knows for a fact Liberty is a hellhole but he still can't figure out Warren is a fraud.:lmao:
 
It would be silly to just accept every bit of it as certainty, but it's also very believable. I tend to think the criticisms in the article are more true than not.
 
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